Lil toad...!!
02-21-2015, 10:29 PM
#1
Lil toad...!!
I've been threatening to build one of these for years.
I built one from the RCM plans service back in 1990.
The design dates back to 1969 when we landed on the Moon.
It was controlled [if I recall correctly] by a single channel, but the actuator was able to provide 2 functions some how.
I might be wrong about that. I seem to recall that the plans showed an optional sliding servo arrangement made from birch dowel, nyrod, and other common junk any builder would have handy.
This plane was the most exotic thing I ever tried putting together [being pretty new to RC], but all I had for power at the time was a weak OS .10 and an unbreakable nylon 7 x 4 prop.
There was barely enough power for hand launches...roughly half the attempts would "scrape in" and need to be re-tried.
Once airborne, it was pure fun and quite a thrill.
It was covered with some brand of iron on cloth and it eventually got too fuel soaked.
So....this 2015
version is fairly faithful to the original outline, but with a few changes to satisfy personal preferences.
It has 30 inches of span, the airfoil is 2 inches thick.
The original [that I built] could flat spin like crazy with no rudder. With more power and a working rudder this thing might get pretty wild.
This is another good project to use up some more of the "too light" balsa laying around.
I built one from the RCM plans service back in 1990.
The design dates back to 1969 when we landed on the Moon.
It was controlled [if I recall correctly] by a single channel, but the actuator was able to provide 2 functions some how.
I might be wrong about that. I seem to recall that the plans showed an optional sliding servo arrangement made from birch dowel, nyrod, and other common junk any builder would have handy.
This plane was the most exotic thing I ever tried putting together [being pretty new to RC], but all I had for power at the time was a weak OS .10 and an unbreakable nylon 7 x 4 prop.
There was barely enough power for hand launches...roughly half the attempts would "scrape in" and need to be re-tried.
Once airborne, it was pure fun and quite a thrill.
It was covered with some brand of iron on cloth and it eventually got too fuel soaked.
So....this 2015
It has 30 inches of span, the airfoil is 2 inches thick.
The original [that I built] could flat spin like crazy with no rudder. With more power and a working rudder this thing might get pretty wild.
This is another good project to use up some more of the "too light" balsa laying around.
02-21-2015, 11:26 PM
#3
I got a new ASP .12 from the Aussies. I've got a small stable of .15s that could use some exercise too.
I tackled home projects today instead of flying. I'm restoring the car [a Jeep] that is my usual transport to the flying field. My wife's Blazer is so heavy that it's risky to drive out there. The Jeep flies through the muck with ease. It'll be back together enough to drive in a few days after I weld in a floor section and put the interior back together. These Jeeps are great, but they have design flaws that leak water.
So, Blink II will roll out when the old Cherokee is ambulatory.
I tackled home projects today instead of flying. I'm restoring the car [a Jeep] that is my usual transport to the flying field. My wife's Blazer is so heavy that it's risky to drive out there. The Jeep flies through the muck with ease. It'll be back together enough to drive in a few days after I weld in a floor section and put the interior back together. These Jeeps are great, but they have design flaws that leak water.
So, Blink II will roll out when the old Cherokee is ambulatory.
02-22-2015, 07:48 AM
#5
Here's a copy of the original article and plan --- it used a Galloping Ghost actuator on a sliding rail platform. The actuator consumed a lot of power under normal operation since it ran continuously; I can't imagine how difficult it must have been to get the sliding platform set up to be nearly frictionless.
With today's radios and elevon mixing, the setup should be significantly lighter and much more efficient.
With today's radios and elevon mixing, the setup should be significantly lighter and much more efficient.
02-22-2015, 09:26 AM
#6
PS...it only took 2 weeks or so to get the engine. They posted regular shipping details to my email. They have a very well run operation from what I can see. Thanks for the referral..!
Andrew..thanks for posting the article and plan.
Dirty Dan [VA .049] Rutherford had me build a sliding servo tray with nyrod runners sliding over 1/8" birch dowel.
It worked flawlessly, but I also tried the DuBro mixing attachment kit out of curiosity. It worked well, but it stood very tall.
Finally, I tried the ACE Christy Mixer electronic interface, but it had limited travel range.
The flyers way back when were obviously having the time of their lives as pioneers of this hobby. A plane like this must have seemed like a huge victory successfully controlled by the early actuator.
Andrew..thanks for posting the article and plan.
Dirty Dan [VA .049] Rutherford had me build a sliding servo tray with nyrod runners sliding over 1/8" birch dowel.
It worked flawlessly, but I also tried the DuBro mixing attachment kit out of curiosity. It worked well, but it stood very tall.
Finally, I tried the ACE Christy Mixer electronic interface, but it had limited travel range.
The flyers way back when were obviously having the time of their lives as pioneers of this hobby. A plane like this must have seemed like a huge victory successfully controlled by the early actuator.
02-22-2015, 07:54 PM
#8
The fastest prop I've tried so far with a ASP .12 is the APC 5 x 5 E. It's a scary looking little prop, but so far no shaft runs. I doubt it would pull this plane, but it would set the AMA record for the most noise / least speed ever developed.
I will tear the engine down tonight to check the shaft / bearing feel, inspect everything else and run it with carb, muffler...so I don't know what to expect for rpm. If the model ends up nose heavy, then I'll remove the muffler or carb. The carb is a pretty heavy item.
For the Pacer, I'll try those 6.3 x 4 APCs and I suppose they will work well for Lil Toad too.
The good ole 7 x 3 is always ready if I want to try hovering.
Today was a good day on the Cherokee. 95% patched and primed with epoxy primer. That stuff is very tough once it cures.
The patch panel for the right rear 1/4 of the floor pan was a perfect fit from China. The forward area was easy enough to hand form.
The heater unit is next to reinstall..what a monstrosity this thing is. Dealerships charge $1500 from what I hear to service the heater or AC since both jobs require gutting the dashboard, steering column, seats, console........I should just buy a WWII style heater box and get rid of all this overly complex [and heavy] junk....but I'm wimping out and putting the stock 1993 unit back in. You can't even do a true AC delete with a serpentine belt system. The best you can do is buy a "dummy" idler pulley to delete the freon pump.
I will tear the engine down tonight to check the shaft / bearing feel, inspect everything else and run it with carb, muffler...so I don't know what to expect for rpm. If the model ends up nose heavy, then I'll remove the muffler or carb. The carb is a pretty heavy item.
For the Pacer, I'll try those 6.3 x 4 APCs and I suppose they will work well for Lil Toad too.
The good ole 7 x 3 is always ready if I want to try hovering.
Today was a good day on the Cherokee. 95% patched and primed with epoxy primer. That stuff is very tough once it cures.
The patch panel for the right rear 1/4 of the floor pan was a perfect fit from China. The forward area was easy enough to hand form.
The heater unit is next to reinstall..what a monstrosity this thing is. Dealerships charge $1500 from what I hear to service the heater or AC since both jobs require gutting the dashboard, steering column, seats, console........I should just buy a WWII style heater box and get rid of all this overly complex [and heavy] junk....but I'm wimping out and putting the stock 1993 unit back in. You can't even do a true AC delete with a serpentine belt system. The best you can do is buy a "dummy" idler pulley to delete the freon pump.
Last edited by combatpigg; 02-22-2015 at 08:05 PM.
02-22-2015, 10:39 PM
#9
The APC E props have aggressive pitch at the hub most E props do. I bought a few EMP 5 x 5's in hopes I can use them with the Norvel .074 no good too weak.
I like the APC 6.3 x 4 but have not used them yet both are on 09 engines ready to test when the day comes.
I had to do a dash removal once Ford Tempo for my dear wife I was around 32 and willing to fix myself. AC air box was leaking from the evaporator core had to do a parking lot fix. Ford had glued the box together.... Pain in the butt took the weekend to finish out. In my life I have changed out an engine 2 transmissions, typical suspension components that fail brakes etc. It was great to save the money as parts alone always added up.
I like the APC 6.3 x 4 but have not used them yet both are on 09 engines ready to test when the day comes.
I had to do a dash removal once Ford Tempo for my dear wife I was around 32 and willing to fix myself. AC air box was leaking from the evaporator core had to do a parking lot fix. Ford had glued the box together.... Pain in the butt took the weekend to finish out. In my life I have changed out an engine 2 transmissions, typical suspension components that fail brakes etc. It was great to save the money as parts alone always added up.
02-22-2015, 11:20 PM
#11
These newer cars with the metric hardware, lots of junk layered into cramped spaces just aren't very enjoyable to work on.
This Jeep isn't as bad as some.
I would have invented 2 or 3 cuss words never uttered by any man if I came across a heater box that was glued together.
The .12 didn't need to be looked at..at all. It's ready to run as is. This is the 3rd ASP .12 I've laid hands on and it looks like I got a good one.
I'll break it in with a damaged 7 x 3 cut down to 6 x 3.
Let it run fast like a RC Car engine with an easy load.
IIRC, the first .12 I played with a few years ago could spin a 5 x 5 about 24,000 on 10 - 15% nitro, open exhaust, .004" raised liner, CC pressure and large venturi.
This Jeep isn't as bad as some.
I would have invented 2 or 3 cuss words never uttered by any man if I came across a heater box that was glued together.
The .12 didn't need to be looked at..at all. It's ready to run as is. This is the 3rd ASP .12 I've laid hands on and it looks like I got a good one.
I'll break it in with a damaged 7 x 3 cut down to 6 x 3.
Let it run fast like a RC Car engine with an easy load.
IIRC, the first .12 I played with a few years ago could spin a 5 x 5 about 24,000 on 10 - 15% nitro, open exhaust, .004" raised liner, CC pressure and large venturi.
02-23-2015, 08:03 AM
#13
The .12 has a beam spacing of 31/32" and my Enya .11 fits the same. I've got some .15s that need wider beam spacing.
Supposedly [from what I've read] the ASP .15 fits the same mount as the ASP .12.
I'll run the .12 later today to see how well this carb works. It's a nice looking piece, even though it's pretty bulky.
When the .12 is run with a venturi and open exhaust, it has a pretty decent power to weight, making it a strong candidate for projects like a little speedster. With a 5 x 5, you'll be amazed [if the airframe is sized correctly] with the resulting speed.
Supposedly [from what I've read] the ASP .15 fits the same mount as the ASP .12.
I'll run the .12 later today to see how well this carb works. It's a nice looking piece, even though it's pretty bulky.
When the .12 is run with a venturi and open exhaust, it has a pretty decent power to weight, making it a strong candidate for projects like a little speedster. With a 5 x 5, you'll be amazed [if the airframe is sized correctly] with the resulting speed.
02-23-2015, 08:03 AM
#14
The .12 has a beam spacing of 31/32" and my Enya .11 fits the same. I've got some .15s that need wider beam spacing.
Supposedly [from what I've read] the ASP .15 fits the same mount as the ASP .12.
I'll run the .12 later today to see how well this carb works. It's a nice looking piece, even though it's pretty bulky.
When the .12 is run with a venturi and open exhaust, it has a pretty decent power to weight, making it a strong candidate for projects like a little speedster. With a 5 x 5, you'll be amazed [if the airframe is sized correctly] with the resulting speed.
Supposedly [from what I've read] the ASP .15 fits the same mount as the ASP .12.
I'll run the .12 later today to see how well this carb works. It's a nice looking piece, even though it's pretty bulky.
When the .12 is run with a venturi and open exhaust, it has a pretty decent power to weight, making it a strong candidate for projects like a little speedster. With a 5 x 5, you'll be amazed [if the airframe is sized correctly] with the resulting speed.
02-23-2015, 08:48 AM
#15
Ok thanks, in retrospect the AP .09 has approx 30mm x 11mm motor prop spinner muffler 6.47oz practical rpm to 19k per my manual.
I ask as the .12 has the low end needle nice touch for a engine this size. I would want one for abrupt throttle changes flying acro.
I ask as the .12 has the low end needle nice touch for a engine this size. I would want one for abrupt throttle changes flying acro.
02-23-2015, 09:29 AM
#16
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30" and 2" thick airfoil? Cool, a powered glider delta 
Don't listen to me - it ought to move just fine. I bet 6-4 to 7-3 is about right, 5-5 sounds like shifting to overdrive while towing a trailer.
Don't listen to me - it ought to move just fine. I bet 6-4 to 7-3 is about right, 5-5 sounds like shifting to overdrive while towing a trailer.
02-23-2015, 04:54 PM
#18
I ran the .12 this afternoon with the carb and a 6.3 x 4 toothpick prop.
It peaked easily at 20,800 a couple of times.
The 2nd run was with the muffler and it hit 19,500 a few times with plenty of smoke still visible. This looks like it will be a great all around prop. I haven't fooled with the throttle yet.
The engine couldn't feel better when you test flip it. I've heard these engines are inferior to OS and other "expensive brands" metalurgically. Where my other ASP .12 failed was at the wrist pin openings, both sides have gouges in the liner and piston that originate from there. Playing with belly lander planes in the mud every flight, I can't be sure who / what to blame when some things fail.
It peaked easily at 20,800 a couple of times.
The 2nd run was with the muffler and it hit 19,500 a few times with plenty of smoke still visible. This looks like it will be a great all around prop. I haven't fooled with the throttle yet.
The engine couldn't feel better when you test flip it. I've heard these engines are inferior to OS and other "expensive brands" metalurgically. Where my other ASP .12 failed was at the wrist pin openings, both sides have gouges in the liner and piston that originate from there. Playing with belly lander planes in the mud every flight, I can't be sure who / what to blame when some things fail.
02-23-2015, 08:10 PM
#19
20,800 ain't too shabby on 4P so unloaded around 22.4k out the box about 86-90mph level with the wing.
with der muffler 21,200 in the air 80ish
Will be interesting to see how it actually does.
This engine should be a series 3 version did you see any improvements?
with der muffler 21,200 in the air 80ish
Will be interesting to see how it actually does.
This engine should be a series 3 version did you see any improvements?
02-23-2015, 08:43 PM
#20
The carb looks different. The first ASP [I think] had a brass carb barrel. The bearings were too tight on the shaft and too loose in the case. I recall using a bearing glue and lapping the crank to solve that. There was an "ASP Thread" from I would guess 5 or 6 years ago that detailed what was what with that engine. It was a loaner engine from a guy who used to post here and I returned it after the build thread was over. I'm curious about how well it held up, but I suspect it got used sparingly with so much competition for limited play time with other engines.
I can't remember how "deeply" that first engine was worked on. A "Deep session" would include lightening the piston, hogging out the crank tunnel, lowering the head and possibly notching the counter weight to unshroud the forward boost port.
Just about every engine can benefit from spending time with the piston.
I don't have the training / knowledge to know how to spot metalurgic differences, so hopefully "version 3" means that..?
Either that, or "Version 3" means that unlike the first two versions, this version was manufactured without the use of any forced labor...?
As for projected speed....I can't see this fat Lil Toad breaking 80 mph unless it was loaded with some tire weights and dropped off of El Capitan...!
I can't remember how "deeply" that first engine was worked on. A "Deep session" would include lightening the piston, hogging out the crank tunnel, lowering the head and possibly notching the counter weight to unshroud the forward boost port.
Just about every engine can benefit from spending time with the piston.
I don't have the training / knowledge to know how to spot metalurgic differences, so hopefully "version 3" means that..?
Either that, or "Version 3" means that unlike the first two versions, this version was manufactured without the use of any forced labor...?
As for projected speed....I can't see this fat Lil Toad breaking 80 mph unless it was loaded with some tire weights and dropped off of El Capitan...!
Last edited by combatpigg; 02-23-2015 at 08:48 PM.
02-23-2015, 08:50 PM
#21
Series 3:
These are the very latest design ‘Series 3’ engines
These engines include many enhancements over previous versions
These are the very latest design ‘Series 3’ engines
These engines include many enhancements over previous versions
- New crankcase design (O.S. exhaust port sizes ensuring many silencer options are available)
- Double bushed CNC conrods
- Improved metallurgy
- New design (internal idle needle) twin needle carbs (Rear Safety Needle optional at no extra cost on many engines)
- Baffled (quiet) silencers and new super quiet silencers (available for most engines) meaning improved starting, reliability, power and long life; all at great value prices.
02-23-2015, 08:54 PM
#22
Was it this thread?
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/1-2-...sp-12-a-2.html
22.3k unloading just out of the hand 25.2k best down wind dive mode for 95.45mph.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh5Inl6hzYE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh5Inl6hzYE
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/1-2-...sp-12-a-2.html
22.3k unloading just out of the hand 25.2k best down wind dive mode for 95.45mph.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh5Inl6hzYE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh5Inl6hzYE
Last edited by Pond Skipper; 02-23-2015 at 09:26 PM.