rustyrivet

My Feedback: (6)

What's the dang deal with this Norvel .061 Big Mig rc engine? It won't hardly turn. I search the ends of the world and order it special from Canada for this???

I fueled it up and was ready to break it in. But it's so tight that the prop spins loose everytime you try to manually turn it counter clockwise through the top of the cycle. No it's not hydrolically locked because it acts the same way with the carb wide open and the head off of the engine (with the fuel drained out of it too). And if I don't want the prop screw and the prop to come loose every time, then when I turn the prop the opposite way (clockwise, just to see how it will act), it still turns so tight that it takes the strength of a thumb and 2 or 3 other fingers to turn it through the cycle.

No chicken stick will spin this one!
I would guess that this thing was machined too tight/improper.

Any of you guys ever had this experience? Am I missing something here?

Tim Wiltse-RCU

Randall,


All I can say is that I'm glad the one Norvel I have was used when I got it. They have a bad rep for break-ins. Everyone has a different method for breaking in one. I'm sure yours is fine. I have heard something about WD-40 and turning it by hand for hours to get is losened up before you ever put fuel and a glow to it!!

LAter,
Tim

tpstorey

Check out this document on the Norvel site about new engines that are too tight:
http://www.norvel.com/til/TechNote.T017.html

and this one for break in procedure:
http://www.norvel.com/til/TechNote.T001.html

Hope this helps.

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

you gotta have an electric starter to start a Norvel, at least until its broken in.... your instructs will tell you the oil up the cylinder and soak for 24 hours and spin it with the starter with the head off..for a few minutes...once it has run a tank of fuel, it will feel like it lost a lot of compression when you flip it by hand, but thats when it runs the best..Rog

Raymond LeFlyr

My Feedback: (2)

I have two .061's. One is supposed to be a high-performance AME and the other is a Big Mig. I have all but given up on getting the AME to run out a whole ounce of fuel without having to adjust the needle valve. But I am proud that I can get it started. I guess "performance" is in the eye of the prop-turner.

The Big Mig ran pretty good - eventually. On advise of a local expert (and this forum) I removed the plug (I now use the Galbreath adapter and cheap Nelson plugs) and lubricated the piston/cylinder, mounted a prop, and tried to turn it over. Lots of resistance. Too much. The expert suggested applying a heat gun to the "cooling" fins until it got a little looser. When it got loose enough to actually "flip" I turned it over 100 times by hand (as the instructions recommend) - then quickly tried to start it while it was still warm and expanded. Eventually it got to where it would run rich. From then it was a slow process of progressively leaner runs.

Gosh, that process was kinda like breaking in a Fox .35 thirty years ago. Remember when they told you to run a gallon of fuel on the bench before it was reqady for the air?

Oh yeah, I soaked the .061's in castor oil as per instructions overnight first. Good luck.

rustyrivet

My Feedback: (6)

I've had all kinds of "tight" engines from .10 to 2.1 but they all turned as normal with the stout push of an index finger. Then you could also feel the pneumatic bounce on their stroke. This little engine practically takes the full grip of a hand to turn it once, and feels tough like the rod will snap!

The owners manual doesn't say anything about clamping it to a vise and running it on my 6 foot drill press overnight.

rrragmanliam

My Feedback: (1)

Do not wory your Norvel is NORMAL. Get a new prop (go with a 4x2 or 4x3 for break in). You more than likly wore off the friction surface on your old one. Make sure the prop nut is tight. Heres two ways I've worked the motor in before the initial start up.

1. Mount the engine on a test stand (I use a 2x4) and remove the head. Put a coulpe of drops of after run oil, castor oil, cutting oil, wd40, whatever you have, in the cylinder. flip the motor over about 100 times. When the piston gets close to TDC you will feel the motor get tight. This is normal for the Norvell. This is the piont you have to apply the most "Prop flippin Force". The motor will get easier and easier to flip as your number of flips increases. Next completly disassemble, clean, oil, and reassemble the motor. You are now ready to break in the motor. It will still be tight but just give her a good flip at the compression stroke and it will start. I would suggest you do not use an electric starter with this motor as a bent con rod from hydraulic lock is a real danger. I've used this method with all four of my Norvels and it's worked for me.

2. the second method is the same as the first except you use a heat gun to heat the cylinder assembly as your giving it the first 100 flips with the head off. IMO this really isn't necessary.

Be sure your fuel has at least 20% oil. If it doesn, add some castor to bring it up to at least 20%
Hope this helps - Darren

rustyrivet

My Feedback: (6)

tpstorey,flyinn rog, and raymond,

When I responded to Tim's sought of "oh well" post #2, your replies hadn't shown up yet. And the only response I could make was my friendly post #6 wise crack in reply to him.

You have since responded with posts #3, #4, and #5 in providing me with security and comfort in assuring me that, I SURE DIDN'T BUY NO FREAKING OS ENGINE!!!! WHAT THE HECK IS THIS HERE!!! WHY DON'T YOU GUYS JUST TELL ME TO HOOK IT UP OVERNIGHT TO THE FLY WHEEL OF MY FORD 454 ENGINE TO BREAK IT IN!! Arhhhh ..Arhhh......Ahhhhh...

Who's that chubby little comedian dressed in the beret and the long trench coat(who's now deceased) that use to stand there on stage all the time and scream about stupid stuff that annoyed him? Guys, that's who I feel like right now: "What do ya mean I have to hold the Norvel Engine over my Bar-B-Q pit first to loosen it up" . I could just see him on stage screaming that!

Seriously guys, thanks for the input. Especially tpstorey for hooking me up to that Norvel tech bulletin. I don't know why they don't include that info with the engine. I wasn't too far off in my joke about running it on my drill press, was I?!. If SAM KENNISON was alive today, he could have had us laughing our butts off with this topic. Seems rediculous. But Ok, if that's what this Norvel takes, then I'll just put on my trench coat and get with the process. Ahhhhhh......Ahhhhhh....


rrragmanlian, Your reply also came in while I was writing this post. Thanks for the help. I will use a lot of the advice.

BMatthews

I can't help but wonder if this overly tight initial condition is the source of the reports about the Norvels snapping their cranks. Certainly cranking it over against that tight a fit had GOT to have an effect on the crank pin and crank web.

You guys sure the piston couldn't benifit from a tiny bit of lapping? Or is this a new "swage fit" breakin method that I know nothing about.....[X(]

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

HI RANDALL! I have recently broken in 2 .061s using a friends' advice and it worked great. Take the back plate off, and the head and carb/venturi. Lube it up with a penetrating oil. Use either a drill motor, or electric starter, but spin the motor clockwise, so you don't throw the prop. Run it till the oil darkens, flush, repeat. Keep doing this till it feels loose enough to possibly start. Use a 5-3 prop for break in, and get the motor into a 2 cycle scream ASAP. Watch the needle closely, you should still see a good amount of oil in the exhaust. 3 or 4 runs with 1oz of fuel did the trick for me. Once broken in, the new NORVELS are great. They are easy on plugs too. BTW, use a 2-56 screw and lock nut to bolt the carb back on, and toss the Russian screw.

ZAGNUT

My Feedback: (1)

use a heat gun or the tail pipe of your car to heat the cylinder up before you start it! this is the best way to break-in a tight engine.

or are you just making up excuses not to fly your plane


dave

fastlash

My Feedback: (7)

Just to prove my Idea about using a heat gun first I took a new norvel .o74 out of the box mounted it and proped it, pulled the head and checked the pinch at TDC, it had a ton, then I took my heat gun to it, heated up good and I then had ZERO pinch, I put the head on fueled it up, primed it after heating it up again, It fired up on the 4 th flip, then then I leaned it down right away, to keep it hot running. rich will damage the motor, I heat cycled it half dozen times, motor runs great, and I did heat it up on all the break'in runs

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

HI there BRUCE! I'm not surprised to hear your report about the broken cranks, though I haven't seen it first hand. I suppose if a guy knew what he was doing, lapping would be a good way to go, but the grit might get ground into this new fangled REVLITE stuff. I'll be willing to bet that REVLITE is borne out of aerospace technology, poorly understood by most of us for sure, but it sure does work well once you get it worked in. The larger size NORVELS are awesome, and inexpensive. I've had great results so far with my RJL diesel head on a NORVEL .061. The net result is turning a 7-3 APC @ 13,500 , which will pull over 14ozs straight up, OOS!

ZAGNUT

My Feedback: (1)

from what i knows the cylinder is hard anodized and the piston is plated with electroless nickel. so i think lapping might just ruin the engine as both these coatings are quite thin

HEAT GUN!!!!!!


dave

Andrew

RandallM --

Sounds like you have gotten most of the skinny from the rest of the guys. The new Big Migs are tight at the top, the AME's are tighter still. Don't try to turn it thru slowly -- it can get so tight that it feels like the rod will break. The .061's will almost always flip thru the top end, but need a good prop snap coming up onto compression. I've often wondered about the physics of being able to flip thru, but of the engine binding when turned slowly -- it may have something to do with maintaining a oil film with a sharp snap, but the film may quickly dissipate when turned slowly.

The most recent engines ship with a flyer from SIG describing loosening up before starting -- Bipe Flyer posted an image of the flyer in another post.

I like the heat gun approach, but have also hand flipped some enough to remove the tightness. I would not use any lapping -- breaking in the NORVELs seems to be a combination of quickly reaching operating temperature like the ABC engines and some extensive running similar to the old FOX's.

Hang in there -- some are more difficult to start than others, but a good tight engine will almost always be a good runner.

Raymond LeFlyr: If you get fed up with your AME, I'll take to save you the frustration.

the "other" Andrew

MR Flyer57

Whoa big fellas,
Please read a different idea before breaking in that engine.

The cylinder is cut with the top being tighter on purpose, and requires the correct break in or you can wreck a great little engine. The idea is that the top part of the cylinder gets hottest and expands more, to keep from having a loose fit upstairs after the motor has been broken in and the metal has expanded, they made the top a little smaller.

Don't wear away this tightness or you will have a loose fit when you get it broken in. This means do not run this engine cold, trying to break it in. Don't use some oil and a drill or just turn it over with out starting it.

You must get it hot to expand the top part of the cylinder and then when you get it fired up, run it hot, at running temp, and don't let it four stroke. Do not lean it out to the point of cooking it, but it needs heat to break in and expand properly. There is no ring on the piston and it needs this very tight fit to run well.

Most can be started without any special steps and just ran up to temperature without delay, but some are just a little too tight. If you have one of these, try this.


Use something to get the top of the cylinder hot, a heat gun or even a torch if your very careful. Then start it and run it up keeping it just into the two cycle range, but not letting it four stroke. Lean it out for just a bit (about 30 seconds) and then back to the richer setting, but never four stroking. Lean it a little longer and then back to a richer setting.

About the sixth cycle you should stay at the lean setting and just make sure it isn't getting very very hot. During this process do not idle it. Do this for one half tank full, shut it off and cool it down and then start it and use up the other half tank full doing the same.

This is very different from the old ringed engine break in, but it is what the engine needs.

Next it should run fast and at the lean setting for about two tanks, shutting it down at about half a tank and letting it cool off completely, then continuing through the two tank full cycle.

After the two tanks work on the idle and go flying. It will take about six tanks to fully break in the engine, but you can do it in the air if you make sure it doesn't lean out.

MR Flyer57

rrragmanliam

My Feedback: (1)

OK Mr Flyer, You've convinced me. Your points are valid. But I've broken in my four Norvels as I've described above and they all run great. Two of them have over 100 runs on them and they still produce plenty of power. I dont see how I'm wearing away any thing critical with my first 100 hand flips that wouldnt be worn away once the thing runs for the first time and a few hundred thousand strokes are put on the motor.

Darren

MR Flyer57

Believe me, I am not the expert here.
]
I am parroting something that was in the new Fly RC Mag that was offered here at RCU. I was like you, and have always broken my engines in a little differently. But also like you, when I read the article it made a lot of sense.

I will be changing my ways and still wonder what would some of the motors be like if I would have broken them in differently.
MR Flyer57

rrragmanliam

My Feedback: (1)

Yea I hear you, that was my first thought too.

Digger-RCU

I have to agree Mr. Rrragmanlian,

I think these Norvels are fairly Bulletproof, and they are tough to mess-up. The hardest thing is getting them started the first time. I am sure heating them up helps this, but once they are run a couple of time, they seat themselves.
The cylinder is not worn away, the piston is seated on the cyl. This can be seen by the black crap that is spit out the first time they are run.
I think the thing that breaks them is to put too much power on them when they are tight
ie. electric starters and drills. Folks would never do that sort of thing to a COX, why are we suprised when it breaks a Norvel?


Anyway, I have heard lots of information run round about these engines for the last several years. I have yet to meet a bad one. (I own ten) I really think it is a start-em and run-em kinda engine. Once you get them to turn over (however you do that), I think it is all pretty much the same.

Randy (Digger) Birt

Clean

Mr Flyer has the correct technique. Get it warm so that it turns over, then start it and run it. Several cycles will get it to the point that you won't need the heat gun. The results are that you will have the most pinch, the most power for the longest time on your engine. Breaking it in by lapping it without the head also works, it takes a little off the top of the engines performance, but it works fine. Even at less than optimum these engines have way more power than the stock TD, usually more than the modified TD but not as much as the higher performance 1/2A engines. Your full size engines would act exactly the same as this one if the tolerances were the same. remember at 1/2A sizes, a couple 10 thousanths of an inch are the same as a couple thousanths on a 40, it doesn't take much to go from a hot performer to a dog. That's why when they are fit correctly they don't want to turn over cold. A 40 will pinch but not lock up.

Ideally, we wouldn't run ABC engines, we'd run ringed engines which would make up for the different operating temperatures of our engines (between idle and full throttle) If you are running this engine in CL (all or nothing) mode, you are operating an ABC correctly.

Raymond LeFlyr

My Feedback: (2)

Ah, knowledge is power.

Thank you gentlemen and comrades for all the good information about the Norvels. It has given me the courage, fortitude, impetus, whatever to "attack" my AME yet again.

You have given it (and me) a second chance - if I haven't already done too much damage already.

After all those years of using the "other" brand of engine, these N's are a little different - fer shur.


P.S. It's 31 degrees, no wind, and snowing big, fat flakes. How idyllic. Not too good for flying but kinda purty.

2fast4u

My Feedback: (5)

Hay Raymond LeFlyr send your nasty ole AME to me. I have 6 of them. They all hand start, idle perfectly, and scream on the top end. I would be glad to have it.

You guys should be careful what you say about things you don't understand. These engines are wonderful, but you HAVE TO FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS!!!!!!!![:@] They don't say OS on the side of them. They are a different type of engine. With proper break in, they just get better with age. I should know, I have about 16 Norvel engines and they ALL run great.

rustyrivet

My Feedback: (6)

diddo......but what do I know. I'm only the casual observer and the piano player here.

Bipe Flyer

Ditto!

Here are the break in instructions from Norvel.