MarkD

Does anyone know anything about Lazer Works ? http://www.lazer-works.com/misc.html

It seems that they are producing short kits of the Mini Pacer, TigerSport and Sykosis from my drawings.

This fact was COMPLETELY unkown to me. I did a Google search on plans cutting and found the link.

I just wanted everyone to know that I have no affiliation with, or knowledge of, this company.

As always I will be happy to answer any and all questions about the designs themselves and/or my original drawings, but I CAN'T answer any questions about these short kits and or the Lazer Works buisseness itself. Until tonight I did not even know it existed.


Thank you,



Mark D. Fain (aka MarkD)

dbacque

My Feedback: (3)

I made the discovery a couple of months ago and ordered a Sykosis short kit. The wood is good, the laser cutting is accurate and for $17 I saved myself a bunch of time and headaches.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy scratch building. But for that price, with that accuracy and with no mistakes on my part, I couldn't pass this one up. Especially with all the lightening holes in thin stock.

It probably won't get built until next year but I've got the short kit and plenty of contest balsa for everything else. Should be lots of fun for next spring!

Dave

Andrew

There is also a kit for the LST 1/2A trainer by Black Flight aka Bipe Flyer. Andrew, were you aware the LST had been short kitted?

BMatthews

That's sort of nasty of them if they are doing the kit from your drawings without any asking.

I suppose I can see the LST being kitted without notice as Andrew pretty much put it into the public domain but a courtesy request would have been nice.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

See, that would tick me off pretty bad! They didn't even ask!? For all you guys that ask about my CAD files, do you still wonder why I switched to PDF?[:@] It's got nothing to do with you guys and everything to do with folks like this.

Tim Wiltse-RCU

Oh that's just BullCrap!!! Time to flood they jerks with emails/phonecalls to see if they have the rights to use those plans. I bet they don't!!

Later,
Tim

treedog

As an avid reader of this section and out of curiosity i surfed the web site in ? and found this cryptic 404 file under the nick ziirolli dr 1 plan after clicking on the picture of the kit. Strange as iv'e never seen this before on the net?[:-]

propbuster

My Feedback: (1)

Sorry to see that some has swiped your plane without asking! I'm starting up a small ARF company myself but I'll have the rights to all the planes I'm going to kit. And others will be of my own design. I don't want to step on any toes or go through the legal issues of re-kitting some old plane someone has the rights to. You can check out a couple of the planes I'm going to produce at http://blueridgeaeroworks.blogspot.com/ untill I get my real website up and running. My HTML is a little rusty

mikeperik

I believe Peter Rake has had the same problem with some of his designs. Here is a link to the discussion:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...ter+rake+laser

I believe it's the same company in Texas.

Mike

BobHH

My Feedback: (18)

Well, seeing how I was also in the business of re-issuing vintage RC kits, I feel your frustration. I always tried to get with the designer or their immediate family to at least get their blessing on using their designs. Early RC still pays a modest royalty to the original designers of many of the designs offered. This was agreed upon by Dan before the sale. Even though I was re-drawing the plans and making slight modifications I still wanted to give all credit to the original designer. It's just an ethics issue with me. I think it's the honorably thing to do.

Bob Harris

rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

Related to this is the practice of scanning magazine reductions and blowing them up as usable plans. I do this a lot. But, it's one of those things that I feel falls in the gray area.

I recently PM'ed an RCU member about plans he had published in RCM. He told me that his deal with them was a one time payment and that he receives no royalties. It made no difference to him whether I bought the full-size plans from RCM or worked from the reduction printed in the magazine.

But, there are are other situations where designers probably do get a royalty whenever a magazine sells a copy. In cases like that, I would feel like I was short changing the designer by using the magazine reduction. Everyone is different and everyone has their own policies concerning their work. Maybe I am guilty of cheating some people, but one thing I would never do is try to profit from another's property by selling it without their permission.

MarkD

What really angers me is not being contacted and having my permision asked. The plan site I listed the plans on were clearly marked for " personal use"

Even if an email bounced how hard would it be to do a web search on "Sykosis + plan" and check for other links? The RCU links are there. Although I haven't been as active here in the last year or so I still would have been notified if someone PM'd me.

It took me almost 80 hours of my time to get the Sykosis plans ready alone. Probably it took something like 180 hours for all three.

I printed and sent out something like 85 copies of the 3 plans to various individuals, and I never asked for a dime- even for the postage. I figure I spent about $350 of my own money on paper, ink and the post office. One person insisted on refunding the $5 postage, so make it $345.

I did it because I love the hobby and the people in it- not to make money. I wanted to give back to the people who've helped me.

If they're charging $18, I figure they are making at least $6-8 per kit off not only my work, but also Dave Rice's as well.


They list a LOT of plans. Far too many for this to be a "hobby effort".

I had about 5 more plans I was going to clean up and post, but I not going to now.

I just don't have the heart.


Mark D.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Mark, since the only thing they're paying for each time they make a kit is the wood, the profit margin is more like $15.[:'(] If you really want to post some new plans, I'd be happy to host them. I would be happy to share some of my efforts to keep the plans secure, too. I REFUSE to let dirty b*****ds like this to stop me from doing what I want. Matter-of-fact, the Kao-tic just got completed and I intend on posting it tonight. (or very soon, anyway) Gonna add some copyright warnings, too.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Rainedav, it's just my opinion, but if you can enlarge magazine plans, you're well within your rights. That's why they put such fine detail pictures in there. To give you a reason to buy the magazine in the first place.

rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks, ptulmer. One reason it is a gray area for me is because it was once common practice for magazines to print full size parts patterns and include grids around curved surfaces. They expected and encouraged modelers to redraft the plans and build from them. And yes, the line quality is so high with magazine reductions up through the early '90s that it is truly amazing what you can do with Photoshop. Once the publishers switched to using reduced digital images it became more trouble than it's worth. You just can't enlarge a 72 or 80 dpi image 400%.

BobHH

My Feedback: (18)

Raineday I see no problem in copying/blowing up plans to build your own model. There is no money made on someone else's designs. You are enjoying the design and thats what it was made for. I occasionally send out some of my plans to guys wanting to build a model. Rog is selling a few Rivets short kits from my plans and laser file. He asked me if he could and I said sure no problem! Go for it! But to download a plan and produce money making kits from someone else's work and not ask for permission I feel is not right.

Bob Harris

dbacque

My Feedback: (3)

Dang Mark, when I ordered the short kit I had no idea you and Dave weren't involved! By the way, Lazer Works even asked me for photos and comments for their web site when I completed the project!

Have you tried to contact them? I sure wouldn't let something like this pass.

I hope this gets settled and that you don't let this dissuade you from releasing more plans. With the current dearth of good kits we need all the plans we can get.

Dave

p.s. As someone who unknowingly purchased this unauthorized short kit, I would be happy to send a royalty payment to both you and Dave. I only wish I had something better to offer, like a couple of Norvel's!

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

Well, I recall alot of those plans also had wheel pants and cowls and canopy's and such for sale by the designer and they were totally encouraging you to build from the plans and buy parts from them...Rog

eroc144

My Feedback: (1)

MarkD - I'd drop them an email or give them a call and try to work something out. If they're decent folk then they'll apologize and either pull the plans or give you a nice royalty deal. If they're less than decent, well then you can have an attorney send them a "cease and desist" letter.

EG

Tim Wiltse-RCU

Well I read over the thread from RC Groups and it looks like Lazer Jerks are just that.... JERKS. It looks like the law says that selling copyrighted plans is a big NO NO like we all know. But I can send a lazer cutter a set of plans and they can take them and make a cut file and make all the kits they want as long as they don't sell the plans because the law says the cut file is owned by the cutter. What kind of crap is that. It's pretty funny who stupid they are really. They took a fellow from the UK's plans and made short kits and were selling them of course. Mind you this UK fellow already was selling kits through other makers. On the Lazer Jerks website they even used his name to market the kits. Once the UK guy contacted them they claimed they had no idea who he even was and that they can't go around asking everyone who has ever drawn a plan premission to make the kits[:@][X(][:@] So lets see they have never heard of him but clearly were smart enough to know his designs were very popular and that is why they were making kits.

Later,
Tim

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Actually, derivative works are not allowed. Those cut files aren't legally theirs. You'd need some money to persue it, but they could be stopped pretty easily. A little research on the goverments copyright website should net everything you need to put in the letter.

KidEpoxy

Funny how this CutFile vs Plans hooey is coming up not too long after the old defence contractors want to get royalties for all Warbird models everywhere. Boeing says anything that even looks like one of their planes owes them money, but some guys, from who knows where, must know copyright law better than Boeing's teams of lawyers and trace plans to a cutfile.... attempting to be a direct & accurate copy of the plan/part/plane..... and marketed using the original owners name to boot!

Derived work? Like scanning the plan & printing it in Blue rather than black ink... a completely different work... see, its blue, and the original is black.... the work I did was a substantial change

MarkD

Dbacque,

you had no way of knowing what was going on, so you have absolutely nothing to feel bad about. I truely appreciate your offer, but no thank you. Just send me a few pictures when it's done.




All:



After rereading my 2nd post I think I should apologize to all- the post came out sounding very arrogant. Next time I think I'll cool down a little before I start typing. I'm sorry guys.


Mark D. Fain

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

I didn't think so, and my offer stands. I'd be super-happy to host some .pdf plans, etc.

Andrew

No apology necessary for me. I see that as no different from posting a circuit design on a private web page with the notation, "For personal use only", then finding out that a company was building and selling the product without my consent. The big cost associated with most products is R&D -- actual production costs many times are a tiny fraction of the sales price.

You have every right to be vexed!!!