ptulmer

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Ok, I'm drawing up a nice little .010 ship and was looking for ideas on building the wing. I've heard of Jedelski (sp?) wings, but haven't ever seen one. I am actually considering a 1/8" thick SWR or just a regular built-up. Any thoughts or ideas for a fairly speedy wing?

Andrew

PT --

I think you will be just as well off with a simple SWR approach. A Jedelsky wing is relatively simple to build, but does require some shaping. Another option would be to have the upper surface as a sheet with ribs under to add shape. It would be open on the bottom with the ribs exposed.

The HONKER has a Jedelsky wing.

skaliwag

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The Jedelski works for me on slower, stable cabin types. For the Zippy ones I like the airfoil thin and a 5 or six AR.
I have thought about he SWR concept and would be interested to see what happens. One model i've wanted to do is the Me Komet with a screaming TD .010 on the nose.

rainedave

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Maybe one of these?

ptulmer

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Is that picture that Rainedav shows a Jedelski type or a hybrid of the sheet-over-ribs? I'm leaning hard towards the SWR, too, Andrew. It's got so much going for it. Easy, light,...easy...

Skaliwag, I've thought about doing an actual rocket powered version. There's a fella not to far from here with a Bell X-1. They drop it from a huge B-29 and fire the rocket off on the glide in. Our club pres likes to show up at their field with fantastic airplanes to show off. Right now, he wants a piped G&Z powered Blink! I sounded like Porky Pig when he said that! A rocket powered ME 163 would be more controllable![sm=lol.gif]

Here's a peek at what I'm doing. You guys might notice the "elgringo" influence.

skaliwag

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Matchless has a Chipmonk 010.. Flies great.

flyinrog

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Big Al has a .010 mustang, it s a beauty too..

Andrew

It's actually a Jedelsky -- the airfoil style uses a shaped LE with a sheet or tapered sheet TE. Sometimes ribs are added for structural support. If the LE/TE sheets are thick enough, just the joint is sufficient. In '78, RCM published a plan for a glider called the Super Turkey that used a Jedelsky -- here's a pic that shows the layout a little better.
The wings build quickly, but can take some time to shape the top of the LE sheet. The bottom of the LE and TE sheet is usually left flat. It's a fairly efficient airfoil, but on a .010 sized plane, I don't think there would be any advantage over the SWR design.

BobHH

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PT, I think a built up wing can be lighter than a sheet wing. Here is the wing for the Mambo similar to Raineday's version. This was also use on the Little Pinto .010 designs of which I happened to have a NIB kit. It came in shoulder or low wing. Another project to get to in the future!!! Also the sheeted rib design was used a lot in free flight and many of Ken Willard's designs for the .010.

Bob Harris

soarrich

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What's SWR?

ptulmer

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You know, that sounds like a challenge MISTER! Well, on an .049 level the answer to that is with careful selection of your wood, the SW can be lighter (by half!). And, I'm gonna be guessing the right material size for the SW, so a little experimenting is in order before settling on a wing type. Plus, I need to settle on what I want out of it. I can't see a TD 01 providing extreme speed no matter what I do with the airframe.

What area do you guys normally see on a model this size? I've got 82 1/2 shown above with a 22" span. 4.5" major chord, 3" minor.

ptulmer

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Sheet Wing Racer. It's a term that Combatpigg came up with to describe a minimalist flat-bottomed wing carved from a solid sheet of light balsa.

soarrich

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OH, OK. I built one of those using a Speed 400, worked so well that Dick Sapoulous came over asked a few questions, and made one, not my design, for a magazine. Mine was a elliptical wing plane I called Sapphire 400. I just did a build of a TopCat sailplane using a Jerdesky wing on RC Groups, Sailplanes, Thermal, The Ultimate Woody. The sheet wing was very fast, the TopCat floats very slowly.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I don't think radio gear is small enough yet to make even a .020 powered plane small enough to be a real speed demon. Can you outfit a .010 plane with gear that has less than or equal cross sectional area as the engine? Perceived speed is relative to size, so you could build a sporty little plane, just depends on your expectations. A flat 1/8" sheet wing is what the goldberg C/L kits use, with about 16-18" of span. For a .010 you would probably want 80-90 sq inches to start with. design the ailerons inboard, so you can trim the wing area if it ends up being a dog. You might find some E props that work, even if you have to shave them down. Otherwise, the ultimate prop would be a homemade carbon job with paper thin blades. with a 1/8th inch of stroke, or whatever it is, getting one of those tiny engines to handle much pitch will be a challenge.

There's no way a built up wing could be as fast as sheet on this scale. It would be too prone to warping and flexxing if made thin enough to be fast. I would be tempted to start out with the lightest 3/16" sheet that could be found anywhere, it would be hard to put any kind of an airfoil on 1/8th inch thick stock. If you want to try built up, then look at the stabs on some of those freeflight planes, there's your wing construction method right there.

MJD

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My only concern with SWR airfoils is the low cL coupled with the low top speed potential of the .010 - it is simply not going to pull an aircraft at 75mph with about 2/3 the pitch speed of a 3" pitch prop at 18k and not a whole lot of power (but certainly repsectable power for its size). So the amount of available wing area troubles me, as does the form factor that results from enough fuselage cross-section to fit R/C gear. I agree with CP, 80-90 sq. in. sounds like a good starting point. I have made built up wings for 1/2A's using 1/32 ribs, capstrips, and D-box sheeting, 1/8" square spars and shear webs, covered with Litespan that came out extremely light and with excellent strength and torsional rigidity. For the .010 I cannot help thinking a well thought out built up wing is going to work the best to provide the necessary lift at the lower airspeeds and wing ares. IOW I think efficiency is the key factor, not surprising when building tiny models to carry R/C gear. With the size involved, it may be true that a sheeted ribbed wing is attractive, there is likely more than enough monocoque strength without spars.

I'll take a look at the L'il Roughneck kit I have to see what the relationships are there. BTW it is a sheeted ribbed wing.

MJD

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

I doubt that any airfoil shape will make a difference at this size. Look at what the foamies do with flat wings. I've got 82.5 squares, so keeping the weight down is more important than anything else.

BTW, the TD .01 swings a 1 pitch prop up to 30k. That gives a pitch speed of about 30mph.[X(] So speed is relative. (or better be!) I'm not attempting to make an extreme speed airplane, but a nice, modern, sportylooking airplane that flies quick.

rainedave

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Just as a reference, here's Ken Willard's Roaring 20. It was designed for .010 power.

scudrunner77

Hey PT!

I'll be following your post pretty close...(no pressure on you to follow through with this one) I was toying around with the idea of a TD 010 SWR back when I was brain storming for a contest plane idea. The inspiration came from the video that can be seen at this link http://www.hobby-lobby.com/nemesis.htm, but after seeing the price tag my LHS wanted for a COX .010 I stopped day dreaming about it. I think a SWR would be perfect for your project and is what I plan on doing for the J250 racing some of us left coasters are getting into. For a project like this I bet you can use some of the DU-BRO micro gear and some 3.6 or 4.3gram servos...

Good luck!

ptulmer

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So you've noticed, huh! I've got dozens of files with started airplanes plans. I work on them right up until the design is laid out. If my mental pictures doesn't meet with my desires, I can't work on them anymore...

Rainedav, you seem to have just about every plan ever drawn. How?!

ptulmer

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Oh man, that's a pretty cool video!

scudrunner77

[/quote]

So you've noticed, huh! I've got dozens of files with started airplanes plans. I work on them right up until the design is laid out. If my mental pictures doesn't meet with my desires, I can't work on them anymore...

[/quote]

Well maybe one of these days I'll help tie up some loose ends... I've considered trying my hand at a rocket boosted plane. Even if you have a lot of ideas floating around you have come through with some great finished products that others can build and enjoy for themselves. Sometimes just the excitement of a new design is just as much fun as anything else. I don't build or fly as much as I would like. I just don't have the time... I do enjoy seeing an idea or two come full circle and get airborne- literally, and then I'm back to dreaming up something else. Sometimes I make a sketch of a design and that's all the more I put into it. Pylon Plunder, this yrs contest plane was from a drawing I did the previous spring on a lunch break. You never know what you will come back too. Just keep designing... I think we all enjoy it and it's fun to see all the input and different angles people bring to the table.

Oh... and I have seen some threads about going brushless with the Nemesis. I think that pushes it over 80mph. That's getting into the same category as the Blink- I call it " NUTS"

ptulmer

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BTW, I haven't given up on the rocket-boosted, .049 powered airplane! That one gets built next. No really, it does. Stop laughing![>:]


Here's a little update. The engine shown is a TD 01 and the servos shown are GWS pico's. That oughta give an idea of the size of this little bugger. The specs haven't changed much since I started drawing. I did change the fin, checking out different looks.

The wing I've semi-settled on is a sheet wing w/ dihedral and a spruce spar about 1/3 span. The wing thickness is going to depend on the weight of the available wood. 1/8 or 3/16.

Raymond LeFlyr

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Geez, I wish youse guys (Scud, PT) would get outa my head!

I ordered some Rapier motors from Shorty's Basement a while back. My intention was to power some old Jetex designs (from the Jetex website, Flying Models, and elsewhere) for some good ole free flight chasing fun. Now, thanks to youse and your "rocket boost" meddling with my little grey cells, I'm trying to figure out where to mount the rocket motor on my Sheetface! No, of course I'd never stoop to using such tactics in order to win the Reedie Race! Shame on you for even thinking it.

Some people have no mercy!

ProBroJoe

Hey PT... you may want to check out the Stevens Aero Adrenaline Rush - it's an e-powered bird, but it's a true sheet wing with about 69 squares (23" span) and weighs in at about 4 oz. - sounds like an ideal .010 conversion to me...



[link=http://www.stevensaero.com/shop/product.php?productid=16631&cat=257&page=1]http://www.stevensaero.com/shop/product.php?productid=16631&cat=257&page=1[/link]

-Joe

BMatthews

Don't even think about this one. Look at the volume of wood in a SWR or a Jedelsky wing and compare that to the volume of wood in a nice lightweight built up of the same area. The built up will win hands down every time as long as the covering isn't too heavy.

And for any of you that have not figured it out yet the Jedelsky wing's main benifit is it's higher camber value with a simple all sheet build. But that higher camber value limits the high speed end of things while promoting the low speed side.