that is not the point. we are talking about being able to do better WITHOUT than with the gyro. the gyro says its helps with drifting. all it does is let you initiate the drift than it controls it for you. it does not let you do certain extreme angles as it stops the car from going that far into the turn, and it definately does not make you a better driver. therefore it is counter productive to learning. that is the point. no one said anything about not using it if one wants to use it. we just say you will never have the same drift angles that we get without it and you will never be as good if u do remove it unless u go through the whole learning process again..... and about the point you make about helis.... perfectly to my advantage... the gyro in helis helps stabilise the aircraft, it does not stop you from doing stuff, it HELPS YOU DO IT BETTER. therefore that is not counter productive. if i had to fly helis, i would still try to fly without the gyro for a while though, learn to do it the hard way, rather than start off everything that much easier.... but thats just my idea.