Wolfewind...I agree 100%...those 2 planes mentioned are definitely not for beginenrs..more then likely..any begginer that trys those planes will spend more time on repairs and more money om replacement parts then a begginer needs to expirience...but theres no doubt this is a learning expirience...some will spend way more money and time then necessary..just trying to have a first succesful flight by buying a plane thats not for begginers...this hobby can be expensive..but not having a good 1st begginers plane only adds to this expense/frustration...