jkkissick, you are on the right track. Campy, I have a real problem with "For a 1st plane I strongly suggest getting an ARF. " Reasons, I have watched on several occasions where new flyers that start off with arfs do ok with training because they are on the buddy box. Then they move on to the next plane, also an arf and something happens, like a deadstick in windy conditions. Then they are running around all in a panic begging other flyers to fix their planes for them because they haven't a clue as to how it was built!! Winter is starting and now is the time to build. I always suggest that the first plane be built from a kit so that you know where every piece of the plane comes together, how adjustments are made, ect. If it does get a hobby bump, you at least stand a chance of repairing it because you know how the parts are put together and you are not afraid of gluing 2 pieces of balsa together. On the part where you said "When building, it is easy to inadvertently build a warp or other defect into the plane and not realize it." This is almost impossible with the good trainer kits that are out there today. The parts have interlocking tabs where the balsa joins together at the correct locations and the correct angles. I have had several kits, not just trainers where you can join all the fuselage pieces together at once and then add CA glue to all the joints. As far as a trainer getting banged up while training, I have found that in most cases trainers are a solid design and don't mind a few bumps. Harder hits are also easily repaired with short time on the bench if you know how it was built. Arfs don't include the plans so it can make it tricky to piece back together if you don't have any building experience. So go with a kit first, then get what ever you want after! [8D]