I have to get in on this again. Why are yall using gyros and such. Wasting your time. I took the trainer system of my Hobbico Nexstar trainer and put it on my H9 Sukhoi. I only have to roll have the time in a rolling circle. All I have to do is roll to inverted, and it rolls back to normal by itself. That way I only have to be half as good as all you other like Wayne and Leyland. Heck, Chip and Mike Mac aint got nothin on me as far as rolling manuvers. No, seriously. You can do rolling harriers and rolling circles without rudder. It is how I started. I took one less thing off my mind. But the key words mentioned were "PERFECT ROLLING HARRIERS". Me thinks not. And John, on AFP I use the Roland Matt Extra. You know the yellow one with the red bubbles. I max everything out on high rates in the AFP setup and on the radio, and on low rates i got it to fly somewhat like my Sukhoi (except I dont have the trainer system on AFP : )) I use High rate aileron and rudder, but I have found it easier to maintain a high AOA if I use low rate elevator. It keeps it from pitching too much. I use this tecnique on my Sukhoi, Funtana and small H9 Edge and it worked fine for all of those, so I dont see why it wouldnt work for everything else.