DHG,thanks for the reply!I understand the fus becomes a wing when in the K.E> position,however,if you use a little longer tail-moment and a powerfull rudder-would'nt you get to the same place?The smoothist planes in flight are IMHO gliders.They will not knife-edge under about 100 MPH (RC's that is),but if you made the fus taller ,eventually you would have a glider that would do the manuver as good as a pattern plane?It must be that pattern planes are designed to be relatively easy to do the knife-edge.