I got an Extreme Flight 45" Extra for Xmas but to the bad weather have only just started flying it.
My most aerobatic before this was an Multiplex Acromaster which apart from when I've been trying to learn to harrier / prop hang has never snapped on me and even trying the harriers if I get it totally the wrong the recovery is so quick and easy, the second you dip the nose a little you have it back under control again.
The Extra seems to snap virtually every time in comparison at the 1st opportunity and everytime there's any drop in speed, might something like CoG be causing it or have I only flown extremely forgiving planes until now and it's something you just have to get used to ?
I'm find it quite hard to adjust as the Acromaster you could finish an aerobatic manoeuvre and let the plane glide with no motor for a few seconds, you just can't afford to do that with this as it'll bite so have to have power on the whole time. The recovery as well in comparison it's not enough just to dip the nose a bit to build speed you need power as well and it'll wing rock from side to side until you have it back under control !!
As long as you keep a reasonable speed the rest of the time it's nice to fly and can roll / slow roll, fly it inverted, blenders etc and would have thought despite it being on the rearward line if it was the GoG it would fly horribly all the time but don't know ?
Any help appreciated !
N

Witterings:

IMHO, the extreem Flight Extra has been badly designed as compaired to say a AJ Extra 330L or performanc aerpbatics Katana. Both of these do not snap, they will mush into a nose down attitude and fall off a little to one wing, but nothing like a snap. Some designs like the QQ 73" Yak 54 is flat stable in any attitude, wonderful flyer. Had a highly touted "wonderful" accordilng to the builders mini funtanna built per their recommendations. Flew so poorly, I gave it away. One of those things that would snap all over the place, something like the first Caps. Unfortunately by the time us buyers figure out that something is junk and not as advertised, the sellers have gotten rid of the junk to us. Don't know what the answer is, especially when even the mags say something is good when junk. Unfortunately most everyone that has a financial interest in the product will push it along rather than stand by it as they should. It is a simple fix. Do not produce and sell a product before its time. There are some wonderful birds available out here, we just need a way to sort them out. Our forums are and do have a impact of weading the junk out given enough time. Right now, its still profitable to release model after model after model to the public regardless of the quality. Recalling a entire production of one model will create severe financial hardship on most new well intended companies, and on some of the large ones. I don't see Hanger 9, Tower, Hobby Lobby or others recalling something touted as great that is junk. They will and must recall unsafe products by law, but the buck usually falls back on the manufacturer as it should. Things would be a whole lot worse in poor products witout forums such as RCU, at least people like you can get the word out. Good luck and ENJOY.

I have the Edge currently, but had the Extra for a time. I really enjoyed the plane but I had the first version with extremely thin tail feathers. With the first version, the plane would snap horribly when pulling full up, but I thought they fixed that with this later version with much thicker tail feathers. My Extra actually snapped on me at VERY low altitude and I didn't have time to recover[:@] My new Edge (which is almost identical) has the thicker tail feathers and it flies great. I can yank on the controls all I want and it show very little signs of snapping, if any.

Wing rocking is common with many planes (especially this size), and is something that you will have to find the right angle of attack for. I have both EF Edge and Yak and both have a little wing rocking if I don't get the angle of the harrier just right, and both have a much different angle for the best harrier with no wing rock. You can "catch" the wing rock with slight aileron compensations, but it just takes some practice. I found that the Extra does have an advantage in more IMAC stuff and tracks very well. To do some 3D stuff you will need to use your throttle a lot with the Extra and will demand a "honing" of your skills. It is a little more challenging to fly than the Acromaster, but is, in my opinion, a much better plane and makes one a better pilot. You might also try to balance the plane laterally. That will help greatly if you have one wing "heavier" than the other which adds to the rocking effect.

When I do a "wall" maneuver, the plane may try to fall to its right. You can use some rudder to correct this and it will straighten out.

I hope this helps you a little.

Neville,

If you are using a computer radio, adjust the elevator travel to where it won't snap, and use that as a low rate. It doesn't take very much travel for these planes. I only have about 15mm of travel in my Edge, for a low rate.
As JrWilliams said, for harriers you have to find the right AOA. This will take full elevator travel, high AOA (45 degrees or more), careful throttle management, and using the rudder to keep it straight. When you transition into the harrier, you will get some wing rock, so get the nose high quickly, and use small aileron movements to counter.

Keep at it, you'll get it!

Bill

Wondering if I may possibly have worked it out but again would appreciate any thoughts / comments.

If I fly normally / do circuits, come in to land the Extra flys beautifully and it can fly slowly, it always seems to be at the end of a manoeuvre that it happens where I've had no throttle ie I may be coming straight down towards the ground from height and doing rolls or a Reverse Cuban or Split S. I then give a small amount of elevator to bring it to level flight and then apply the throttle - that's what I'd do with the Acromaster and it was fine and could glide out at quite a speed and go for a reasonable distance without having to open the throttle but with the Extra if you don't apply throttle almost before you start to level out that's when the stall occurs.
Something I'd noticed is the Acromaster propeller stops spinning almost immediately and remains still, it's the same when coming into land, the standard Castle Creations Phoenix 45's factory setting are slow soft brake.
The Extra with the Air Boss ESC I don't think there's any brake set from factory and when it lands with no throttle it's still spinning from the wind until the plane comes to a standstill which would be the same as in the above manoeuvres. I'm wondering if the spinning prop causes drag making the plane slow too quickly at level flight with no power and hence why it's stalling.
I'm sure I saw / had reference to spinning props slowing a plane down in a question about ESC settings.
Again thoughts again appreciated.
N

You will need to carry some throttle throughout maneuvers as the Extra is not really designed to be a "glider". Yes, there is high wingloading, but that does not mean it will float. All my 3D stuff seems to drop quickly when there is no power. I believe the huge props proportionally to the plane may be a factor to that because there is drag caused by the slowing prop. I never fully shut off the motor during any flight. You will need to use your throttle and fly through the maneuvers.

The ESC is programmable, but you do want it to be off or no brake. With the ESC braking fully or some you will notice a consider amount of torque taking effect as the motor has to start up again. To fly smoothly and with some precision you would want that brake to be off.

Any easy way that I found to learn how to adjust with the correct aileron and rudder inputs during a harrier is to get some altitude and do an "elevator" m,aneuver. With full up/down applied and the motor rotating slowly, the plane drops almost straight down and you will quickly learn how the plane reacts to your aileron inputs and and how to use the rudder to control the plane as it glides down in a controlled way.

I hope this helps. Have a great day!

Rmenke, I take great offense to you calling our aircraft JUNK! FYI we have sold over 5000 of these aircraft worldwide in the last few years. The Extra, and our entire line of electric aircraft will perform as well as any aircraft on the market. Comparing a scale balsa aircraft to a foam aircraft is apples and oranges. Two completely different animals.
I have video testimonial of flyers from all over the world flying the heck out of the Extra and all of our other electric aircraft as well. The Extra will perform any maneuver that you are capable of. DO a search on youtube for Extreme Flight Extra and you will find many videos from all over the planet of guys wringing these planes out. Look for the one of Ian Watson if you really want to see some incredible flying with the Extra.

Witterings, take some time and get used to your Extra. Don't make jugements on the first few flights. Experiment with CG, lateral balance, control throws and learn the aircraft. You will be rewarded with a great flying experience. BTW, I see you are located in the UK. You may want to get one of the Freestyle-RC team guys to have a go on your Extra and help you get it dialed in. Daniel Roser of Freestyle RC has Team Extreme pilots all over the UK and they travel to many flying fields to support our products and help customers get the most from their aircraft. Get in touch with Daniel at www.freestyle-rc.co.uk and he can let you know their schedule.
Thanks for your business!
Chris Hinson
President
Extreme Flight RC

A couple of video links for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Rmq8uV3ag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oGsl...eature=related

Witterings, with any plane you construct, even it the kit is perfect, it's important to laterally balancing your aircraft, verify that the elevator halves deflect equally and that they do not flex where the halves join. Also, having your CG too far FORWARD will actually increase the stall speed, and the tendency for the stall departure to be more abrupt, as well as causing the wing to drop more rapidly than it would at a more aft CG. While a plane may be a bit mroe stable on the pitch axis when flying on the wing, near the critical angle of attack (jsut before a stall) it doesn't do you any favors. Getting the CG back will often lead to little more than a mush right on into the stall and a slower wing drop which gives you more time to fix it (though be careful not to go too far back either!). In my opinion, the final and most important thing is to learn proper rudder use. This is something of a complicated subject as there are many forces as work. . .spiral slipstream, P-factor, and gyroscopic effects of the prop etc (and the latter two tend wto work opposite each other so if the pitch rate is low p-factor wins out, if the pitch rate is high the gyroscopics win). So learning what the rudder is for (beyond the basic concepts of coordination with ailerons or for ground handling) and also remembering that a little blast of power increases the control surface authority should keep you out of too much trouble with respect to snapping out of figures, if you are flying on the wing, or 3D, you will need these skills to be "good".

As for the post that suggests it’s a poorly designed aircraft. . .I’ve seen this one fly quite wonderfully, and Extreme Flight is known by just about everyone to make some sweet flying airplanes!

As a pilot of full scale unlimited aerobatic aircraft, I always find it odd that people knock an airplane because a fully deflected elevator (and this may be with the rather obscene throws that a 3D pilot uses) will cause an accelerated stall! Some aircraft give you a little more notice than others, but ALL will do this up to their maneuvering speed, above which things may break on the airframe (in full scale)! A designer could do things to minimze these tendencies in an aircraft, but in so doing they would also be removing attributes that are desirable in an airplane of this sort. Getting an airplane that will depart abruptly when you ask it to, but still have adequate control to prevent this in the hands of a skilled pilot is the ideal!

The full scale Extra300L is quite easy to over-pull when on the back side of a loop etc, even when near its maneuvering speed of 158 knots. This charachteristic also gives it good snap and tumble performance though too! You wouldn't want it to fly through these figures, even though so many RC planes I see fly right through snaps (and many rc pilots just dump a bunch of aileron in call it a snap), but flying through these figures is not going to impress those who know how these maneuvers should look, even though it makes these planes that fly through everything very easy to fly.

So say you have a plane that demands you fly it. . .it really shouldn’t be a terribly big deal to ease off the elevator pressure, and lift the dropping wing with rudder. . .if you can’t do this without much altitude loss then you need more practice (unless your airplane if REALLY out of whack). Yes, you can limit total surface travel if you can’t limit the travel of your fingers, but that’s throw that you will want to have for other maneuvers . . .and how will you ever learn the art of flying if you don’t actually do it!

Consider though that I also don't get why so many people can't enjoy flying knife edge if they have to add some bottom aileron and back stick. . .I guess some people want a more arcade experience than others, but I love flying for the art and challenge of it, both RC and full scale, and if I simply had a button to press to roll into a KE, or to snap, I guess I'd find a new hobby. (OK, so my computer radios DO have those buttons but I don't need to use em!!)

That's my .02 on the subject.

Extreme Flight has one of the best reputations in the industry. You don't get that by building anything but good airplanes.

I've got an Extreme Flight Extra on the workbench right now and it's extermely (no pun) nice. Everything is put together so well that I can't wait to get it into the air. It's nice and light, and everything on it is straight. It looks good, and everything on it fits together real nice. All that's left is to put the radio gear in it, but the way it's going I don't anticipate anything difficult.

I'll be doing a 25 flights report on the Extreme Flight Extra, and I'll find out first hand for myself how this plane flies. I think people know I shoot straight, and that's what you're going to get.



EDIT: I didn't see 8KCABrett's post until after I had put mine up, but it's a good one from someone who is obviously well informed.

I believe the last four posts pretty much explain it all! [8D] I love EF planes! They are awesome! I will always have one in my hanger unless the hanger burns down[X(] LOL!

Firstly just for clarities sake his thread wasn't started as a critisism of the product which I bought it on the back of their reputation, the video's showing what they can do and testament of one of the guys who works at the LHS who's been flying since he was 8 and is an amasing pilot who has the yak and has flown the others. It was started as it's flying differently to what I've been used to up until now despite the other plane being highly aerobatic / 3D and me questioning if that was the characteristics of the plane and something I had to get used to or whether I'd set it up incorrectly especially as this is the 1st balsa plane I've had as the rest have all been foamies.

Many thanks to everbody for all their input - all extremely useful and even if nothing else can massively help in eliminating things and acting as a check list. I've checked the lateral balance and think it's spot on, the elevator and both halves move / deflect as one, the stabiliser may not be 100% level with the main wings but it's absolutely nominal and I would say my other plane has a FAR greater variance but doesn't affect that. CG I've had to move the battery so it's hanging half off the front of the battery tray and use a "seat belt" to secure it to get the CG just a tad in front of the 4.00" mark so again don' think it's that.

Most of the time I can fly it fine and have got through 10 flights so far doing slow rolls, inverted, some knife edge etc and despite being at the learrning stage on my 3rd battery got the best / longest harrier and prop hang I've ever managed to date but as I mentioned before it always seem to be when coming out of manoeuvres that have been heading straight down and then when I'm give up elevator to bring it back to level flight. As jrwilliams said "I'll need to use contant throttle and fly it through the manoeuvre" which I think is what it may well be and due to the other plane flying differently have got used to that but also where I've been cutting the throttle completely I do think the prop does have a strong braking affect (again which I'm not used to) which is exagerating the slow down combined with up elevator and even if I had a nominal amount of throttle coming out of the manoeuvre think it would probably counter it.

Once again many thanks to everyone for their help / input and nice to see Chris Hinson taking a caring interest in a customer and trying to help !!!!!! As soon as we get some better weather over here will be back out there and spend some more time getting used to it and I'll let you know how I get on !!!!!

Cheers Guys and happy flying !
N

Foamies aren't even real airplanes, IMHO, and the more you fly balsa planes, the more you will understand why I say that. I don't want to put foamies down, so don't take it that way, but they will flex and bend under stress, so they aren't the most precise things made. When the airframe alignment constantly changes during the flight, that's just not good, and once you fly a precision plane you won't put up with it anymore.

You can't put the plane where you want it to go if it doesn't go where you point it. I'm sure that sounds too simple, but the basic truths always are.

Now you are flying a precision airplane and it's a different world. If the stab is on crooked, even a little, that in itself will steer the plane. Obviously more is worse, but even a litte effects the way the plane files. If a crooked stab is steering the plane when it's nearly stalled, this is especially bad and might be where your problem is coming from.

You are probably pulling real hard because the ground is coming up (and who can blame you?), and the more crooked the tail, the worse the plane is going to deviate from straight flight, especially if you are cranking back on the stick.


This is probably the most salient advice on the thread. If you can hook up with this guy in person he can fly the plane, tinker with the set up, and probably get it perfect for you.

Extreme Flight,

Thanks for posting the two videos. Right up front I'll state that I am not critical of your product. I'm on a fact finding mission and this thread provides a nice introduction to my question. With that said...the pilots are obviously quite good. However, I noticed that during the slow rolling circles, just before the crash in either of the videos, that the roll is not very axial. The plane starts wobbling throughout its last roll and ends up pointed down. I've heard that adding differential to the aileron travel can clean up a 3D plane's roll to be purely axial. Has anyone had any luck trying differential or have other suggestions?

Thanks!