All,
I have a H9 Cap with Moki 1.8.The plane flies great,and performs any conventional maneuver with ease.The plane would hover at 1/2 throttle,if it didn't keep falling out.How far aft do I have to move the cg?It is 1/4" behind recommended now.I bought this to learn 3D,and after about 20 flights got frustrated,put it away,and went back to flying my G62 powered Mustang,and my ducted fan Starfire.The Cap has 45 deg elevator throw,and the rudder just about hits the elevators.The only thing I can think of doing is moving the cg further aft,but I'm wondering if that will help.If not,I think I'll sell it to help fund my turbine.
Thanks,
Erik

Erik,
An aft CG wont neccesarily help you learn how to hover the Cap. The real factor in learning to hover any plane is burning lots of fuel. Just keep at it.
Thats a fun plane with the Moki huh? Great Combination!

Wayne,
No disrespect,but I've watched people hover other planes,most of them much larger,and they weren't working 1/10 as hard as I have to with this thing.It constantly tries to fall out.I really think it's more than just me having to try more/harder,although anythings possible.It certainly can't hurt to fly it some more.Thanks

Hovering a plane is EXACTLY like balancing a a yardstick vertically in your hand. The yardstick constantly falls over, and you have to move your hand to get the bottom back under it to keep it balanced. At first, the yardstick seems to fall WAY over before you correct, and you've got to make large movements with your hand to get back under it. With practice, you get to where you can see when the yardstick JUST STARTS to fall, and you can make very small corrections to keep it balanced. You're now at the point where you're making it look easy, and look like you're not doing much work. It's also at this point that someone watching you will think it's easy, get himself a yardstick, and decide his yardstick is faulty because it won't stay balanced like yours did.

BTW, the parallel here is that the plane is also CONSTANTLY falling out, and you have to use rudder and elevator to keep the tail under the nose. You can't move the cg back far enough so that the plane will just sit there by itself hanging on the prop (and still be able to fly the plane, that is).

Regardless of what NIKE said about Michael Jordan, it WASN'T the shoes.

You hit it right on the button Tim.....

make all the alignment and nesurements to the plane, go for the trimming chart to check it, if the plane is fully neutral as a pattern ship it would be easier to hover also use large diameter and low pitch props

my best

All,
I hear you loud and clear.Thanks for telling me like it is.I'll just have to get out there and burn some fuel like Wayne said.Your posts and humility tell me it must be the loose nut behind the wheel,and not some shortcoming with my setup.Thank you!!!

I like the yard stick analogy. Here's an article I found that really helped me get in the correct mind set for how to do it:

http://www.gsal.org/articles/flying/torque_roll.htm

If you watch the pros, they rarely use the big control throws to chasing the plane around the sky.

Branwell says it better than me, but basically you have to learn how your plane behaves and react before/as it happens. Reactions need to be only enough to stop the fall out...

Good luck -- now get out there and burn some fuel!

-Chris

"I've watched people hover other planes,most of them much larger,and they weren't working 1/10 as hard as I have to with this thing"

Eric,
That is just a fact of life. If you don't believe me, just read the Scale Aerobatics article in Model Aviation a couple of issues ago. The guy covers this subject quite well.

Bottom line.......3d is 10 times easier if you are willing to drop 5 grand for a 40% plane, as compared to doing it with a 1/4 scale

If you can copy with your 1/4 scale what some other guy is doing with 40%, you are the better pilot.

I agree that the larger planes do with less effort. But, a h9 25% Cap is a very capable 3D plane (with the right power, set-up etc etc.)

If your better because you can do 3D on a 25% how about if you can 3D on a small .40 sized plane like a Sig SE?

"If your better because you can do 3D on a 25% how about if you can 3D on a small .40 sized plane like a Sig SE?"

Then your awesome!

No, actually, comparing the SE to a Scale plane is getting into an apples and oranges thing. The SE and other fun fly planes are easier to fly than a cap or extra model that is more or less scale.

I think you have to look at different sizes of just one type of plane for this comparison. For example, a .40 sized Extra or Cap is going to be VERY hard to 3d......even compared to a 25% Extra or Cap. I remember when I first went from a .40 size Extra to a 25%, I was like "WOW!" it was like a whole new world opened up.

Agreed, the 25% H9 Cap IS capable. Larger planes damp out movements more. When balancing dowel rods vertically in your palm, a 4 foot rod (40% plane) is a bit easier to balance than a 3 foot rod (30%) which is a bit easier to balance than a 2 foot rod (25% plane). You can still balance the 2 foot rod, but things happen a bit faster, and there is somewhat less margin. Get the length down to one foot (40 size scale Cap or Extra) and things happen TOO fast to consistently balance the rod. On the other hand, understand that you can't buy a rod that's long enough that it will balance ITSELF!

We definitely agree that one doesn't have to spend $5,000 to learn 3D stuff, Eric's 1/4 scale H9 Cap is waiting on him to learn to properly move the sticks. After the plane is properly set up, he'll quickly learn that flying a manuever is something that the PILOT does, not something the PLANE does. When Eric was watching those big planes hovering, not one of those pilots had pressed the "HOVER" button on his transmitter, and then set the transmitter down and just watched! Given the transmitter, Eric would not have had any more success hovering with one of those biggun, but those same pilots could, with minor adjustments on setup, have hovered Eric's plane!

The MAIN thing one can buy to learn manuevers is FUEL.

Hi Erik! How have you been? Hovering your cap is a do-able. It just takes two things. (1) Plane Set-up and (2) Practice, Practice, Practice. Drop me an email and myself and others will make sure the first is taken care of with perhaps a demo from the local 3D expert. Talk to you soon! Bruce

Hi Eric, I feel for you man, I'm in the same boat trying to learn how to hover. I just started a week ago with my hangar 9 edge 540. Saito 180 powered. Everytime I go out, I do alittle better, I can hover for 4 to 5 seconds now, and recover without loosing any altitude. I'm bringing it lower each time out, that really seems to help. I did some reading before I started. Here's what I gathered.

The bigger the plane the better, you can hover with a 1/4 scale but it's alot harder than with a 40% (i'll learn with my 27% edge, I'll be dammed if I'm going to give up!

Learn how to recover after falling out of the hover without loosing any altitude, this builds confidence.

Now that your confident, start hovering closer to the ground, the lower you are, the better you can see the plane and respond more quickly.

Ballance your plane laterally

If it's constantly falling to one side, maybe a change in engine thrust is necessary. (right or left) Probably to the right.

Its costs about 100 bucks to learn, and it's all in fuel.


practice practice practice.

It's a great life If you don't weaken

I've got the same setup, H9 1/4 scale Cap with Moki 1.8. I can definately see torque rolls coming down the road, but there's a lot of fuel between here and there! It's got the power, the control authority, it's willing and able. But I'm just holding it back.

Hang in there, I know I will. And don't just beat yourself to death on hovering. There are some other very cool 3D manuevers that the plane is VERY capable of that are not as hard and will help sharpen your 3D flying skills. Start with elevators and try powering into harriers, get used to 'flying' a stalled wing. If the plane is set up right, blenders are real easy, and the plane will do some very nice ones. Mine will also do a real sharp Wall.

The plane is capable, we just jave to burn the fuel and push the sticks.

I figure if I can make good 3D progress on this plane, when I can afford a 33/40% bird, I should be able to really put it through the paces.

BTW: The Moki 1.8 absolutely ROCKS this plane.

Well said Jim!