Guys..

Looking for your help here ..got a bit of a " show " coming up this w/end and we need to put up a Definition or description/style of exactly what 3 D flying is.. needs to be relatively short....A single sentance or small paragraph would be great.. make it sound dazzling ..

From 3DRC.............................

The normal motion of airplanes occurs in the 2D plane, or a imaginary plane that parallels the wings and extends to infinity. There is no "depth" to this 2D plane. All motion in normal 2-dimensional flight is restricted to that infinite plane. In other words, there is motion in 2 axis of the aircraft. Rolls, loops, knife edges, and hammerheads (among many others) constitute 2D flight.

3D flight is when the motion of the aircraft extends to all 3 axis, where the aircraft has a motion that moves out of the plane of flight. Examples of this are spins, hovering, blenders, rolling loops or circles, and lomcevaks, just to name a few."

Andy

Concur... Also some 3D defies the normal flight physics of an airplane which is accomplished by a high thrust to wieght ratio e.g. harriers and hovering... My $0.02

Flying in an orientation that requires thrust from the prop and not necessarily airflow over the wings

yes in some maneuvers but if you consider flat spins and blenders etc than the wing is still used to some degree.. I guess a short definition would be hard to compose huh...

Great.. ....bit tricky to put into words though init...

I read somewhere that 3D is any aerobatice maneuver performed while the wing is stalled.

This would include all the maneuvers described above.

I like this defiinition for 3D(It was made by Quique or Seba, dont remember)


3D- "Flying beyond the stall."

flight beyone is IMO the absolute answer, tho i usaully say

unortherdox flight

or

bloody fun

Yup, flying beyond the stall

ok... Flying beyond the stall you win... Then here is some food for thought... Ever seen Mig's and Sukhoi's (Russian Fighters) with their thrust vectoring ability (F-22 also)? Would you call that 3D?

NOT NECESSARILY airflow over the wings doesnt mean wing lift cant be part of the answer after all in harriers your flying on the wing (at least some of it) but you would not be flying in that orientation without thrust. same goes for spins when 1 wing is stalled and one isnt. Hey I actually thought about this answer[

well, yes and no, they could obvioulsy do the harriers, which is 3D. but they wouldntbe ale to some of the blenders and walls and things. harriers is only one bit of 3D. there is allot more to it, see a sukhoi su 27 torque rolling on the deck! itd melt the runway lol. not possible.

Oh I understand.. Also the lack of prop wash over the wings of a jet.. Just wanted to throw that out there...

Scott, did u know that with the thrust vectoring capabilities of those Sukhois they seem stalled but they are actually in controlled flight.

Some wings still produce lift in harriers you know....and if you think a hovering flat-spin or indeed a clibing one is 3D, well, its the wings lift making the aircraft hover in the spin!

Btw, Id love to see a Eurosport do that!

I was under the opinion that a harrier created lift only by using thrust from the engine and deflecting the prop wash with the elevator, thus holding the thrust angle at 45 degrees or so. I don't think the wing is doing much lifting....the angle of attack is too great to let aerodynamics happen. (notice I said my "opinion" and "think")

Everyones entitled to an opinions, Ill look my in Aeronautics book, I understand alot more of Aerodyanimcs after going through that like drag buckets etc etc

But certainly the hovering flatspin needs wing lift, so that is not flying beyond the stall.

1. On the thrust vectoring thing, yes they are in controlled flight but I think mostly because of the fact that they can control the thrust nozzles and not becase of the control surfaces IMO..

2. In a harrier I am pretty sure the wing is only providing deflection and not true lift as it does in normal flight... A stall is when the wing's drag is greater than the lift it creates right? Either way I am pretty sure that in a harrier the wing is considered totally stalled and thrust is the only reason that the wing overcomes the drag...

Well stall also is when a wings AoA reachs a point where the airflow no longer can "stick" to the the wing so it breaks off short of the leading edge creating a turbulent wake, this wake increases with AoA until BANG stall.

Stall charactaristics differ from wing to wing, some are VERY sharp, whilst others, almost non noticable, especially with canards where the canard stalls before the wing.

This is all proper aerodynamic fact!

I think 3DRC gives a the best definition, although, doesnt matter what defintion you use Lord Lucan, as long you mention its a hell lot of FUN!

Scott, You got it, one indication of almost being there is when the wings rock in a harrier. At that point, its on the edge of stall and the brink of lift. Caught in the middle. Krayzc did an experiment to assure the wing stalls in a harrier by tapeing two thin wooden dowels to the top of each wing surface about 2' back from the leading edge. The turbulance created ensured stall and the rocking stopped.

Lord Lucan, what was the question? Joe

Definition has to be "Flying beyond the Stall" I think there is more to it than that, but it is short and catchy, and really covers the main aim.

In a harrier, the wing is creating lift, but not in the conventional sense. The wing is stalled, which means the airflow over the top of the wing has broken away, and so is not creating a low preasure area (remember that for an unstalled wing in normal flight, aprox 2/3 of the lift is created by the low preasure over the wing, 1/3 by high preasure under the wing). However the angle of attack will still be creating a high presure area under the wing, which will be higher than normal, and so generate lift.

The proof is in the pudding - in a harrier I use a lower throttle setting than in the hover/torque roll, and given that the thrust is at an angle to the ground, to produce forward motion, not all of the thrust is pushing against gravity and creating lift.

we are some smart cookies huh.. If only all of this was worth college credit... hehe So then is it flying beyond a stall?? who knows.. But I am sure that Lord Lucan has plenty of material to extract a definition from now and this gave me something to do today at work...

Gentlemen, Gentlemen....

Thanks Guys.. goood fun as it should be...All this will baffle the Vicar at the Church Bazare and Baby show on Saturday...

....one last question though...is there a limit per thread of Asprin's you may take......3DRC ..sounds plausable...

Can of worms anyone?