IowaSilvia

My Feedback: (97)

Has anyone had and problems with the CF gear for the funtana? Not the extra long set. I bought a set 4 weeks back when I ordered my new funtana. Loved the CF gear from them. Was outstanding quality, very light, and top notch craftsmanship. I put 4 flights on the plane and was impressed. However, the next day I brought out my plane and put the wing on and my father in-law noticed that the plane was tipped so that one wing was touching the ground. Upon further inspection we noticed the gear had delaminated and was coming apart.

I emailed them asking if they could send me a new set asap, because I am leaving and will not be returning for a month and would like to bring the plane with. They said that I need to send them the delaminated set back at my own expense and they will have to determine if it was their fault or if I crashed the set. I have told them that I didn't wreck them they simply delaminated. And would like a new set before this saturday. They finally got pissed off at me and said they don't like wise guy customers and don't need them. Here is the email they sent back to me.


Brent,

Regardless of how the Funtana lands in competent hands, damage resulting from a crash can only be determined by US and a picture does not reveal enough information as to the cause of the failure. Since no warranty is implied and is only offered under certain circumstances, we leave any replacement up to our discretion.

We tried to offer you a replacement, instead, you insulted our products and continued to dictate how we should do business.

Given the fact that your attitude reflects that of someone that is impossible to please, and you're obviously convinced that our products are 'junk', then we don't need or want customers like you. We have hundreds of satisfied customers...one fussy wise guy we can do without. Don't bother sending the landing gear back. We will offer no replacement or refund to you.

Goodbye!

fiber-lite support
www.fiber-lite.com

Please keep on ordering from these guys but beware if you ever get in a pinch and need something fast. They will take a while and will get mad if you say that their gear is bad. I'm now out a nice set of CF gear and 25 bux.

seanychen

My Feedback: (4)

Man, I ran into the same situation to you. What it comes down to is this:

The Fiber-lite CF gear design work well if you never point exhaust to them. They are very light, and absorb landings very well. But whenever my plane configuration forces me to point the engine exhaust to the gear, it will start to dissolve the adhesive between the lamination layers, and eventually get delaminated.

I contacted Fiber-lite. It's "he" not "they" if you haven't figured out there is 1 guy doing this product. He offers free replacement if I mail in the delaminated gear. So I did, and my Funtana was flying w/ stock alum gear for a week or so. And he did send me another one that seems to be more beefy: thicker by 1 or 2 layers, thus heavier. He says he changed the process/design to make it less prone to delamination. I think the proper fix is in the adhesive, to make it fuel proof.

So if you send in your bad gear, most likely he will give you a new beefy gear, despite his apparently upset response.

Or you can glue back the gear yourself. Epoxy didn't work too well for me for some reason. I find that thin CA worked OK. Just open up the layers, drop some thin CA, and let it bow back to close the layers.

I heard other people rivet this thing, so to constrain the relative movement between layers.

You are not gonna get your $25 back. Plain & simple. If I were you, I'd try to get a new better gear by sending in the old one. Good luck.

IowaSilvia

My Feedback: (97)

I don't know what I'll do. He emailed back saying that he had a better beefer gear to replace it. So he does know it is a common problem. But instead I have to send the bad gear to him, with me paying for his problems. I'm in the middle of starting a new job 500 miles away, buying a house, taking care of my 2 little kids and whatever else pops up. I guess he wants the gear back to look at it, but I would like a replacement first and like most normal companies, will send a prepaid envoice out. I'm not going to pay shipping on his account. It's his fault that they delaminate. Obviously he doesn't trust that I will send out the bad gear after he sends a replacement. If he has so many satisfied customers, I wouldn't think he would think twice about sending out a replacement amediately. It is prime flying season and sat. i'm leaving to go to Springfield, MO. and the following weekend plan on flying at Bolivar, MO. at their Pro Bro fly in. Guess I'll leave my funtana home for a month or so and do nothing there. If I see him there or anyone says anything about Fiber-Lite gear, I won't give them a thumbs up on it. Talk about worthless customer service.. I would expect this from a large company, but I have had way better luck with GP and Hanger Nine. Hanger Nine sent out new axles that were bad on the funtana's. They didn't ask for the bad ones. The new ones are pressed n the same as the old ones. but they put 2 tig weld on the end. They won't come apart now...........Thanks Hanger Nine.. Maybe I'll buy a twist from them now. They're Great.

scole

My Feedback: (5)

Nevermind.

IowaSilvia

My Feedback: (97)

Well, I do know this. I will never spend a penney at Fiber-Lite again. For him to act like that over a $25 gear is rediculous. I make custom aluminum and titainium gear for ppl that I've sold for more than 250/set. If somethin isn't right. I send them a new set asap. No questions asked. It's kind of hard to ruin landing gear. They will rip out the mounting block first or the bolts will break. So for him to think I miss-used them or crashed my funtana is stupid. Even if I did auger it in the ground (though I didn't), the landing gear wouldn't have broke. This is craziness

seanychen

My Feedback: (4)

If you haven't noticed, his business hasn't grown much. This is probably his side job, and he probably doesn't want to grow in this business.

3DSWEPED

My Feedback: (1)

Good luck, everyone has a learning curve to be sure.

TT2

My Feedback: (13)

I own / operate fiber-lite. Obviously Brent failed to tell you what led up to my refusal of a replacement / refund. Just to set the record straight, here goes:

-----Original Message-----
From: Brent (last name omitted) [mailto: (email address omitted)]
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 3:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Customer inquiry bad funtana carbon fiber gear


Hello. I had bought a set of cf gear from you guys a while back for my funtana. It has only 4 flights on it and the gear is delaminating and one wing-tip hits the ground. Please let me know how you can help.

my phone is (phone number omitted)

my address is

(address omitted)

*******************************

----- Original Message -----
From: fiber-lite support
To: Brent (last name omitted)
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 4:12 PM
Subject: RE: Customer inquiry bad funtana carbon fiber gear


Brent,

Sorry for the delayed response. It is possible that some localized epoxy starvation let to the delamination. Send them back and we'll replace them. We're currently experimenting with a new process that will yield much stronger parts and totally eliminate any epoxy starvation issues. Most likely your replacement set will be of the new type.

Our address is:
Fiber-lite composite products
376 Clinton Ave
Osborn, MO 64474

Thanks,
fiber-lite support
www.fiber-lite.com

*******************************

-----Original Message-----
From: Brent (last name omitted) [mailto: (email address omitted)]
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 4:40 PM
To: fiber-lite support
Subject: Re: Customer inquiry bad funtana carbon fiber gear


I don't feel the need to send back junk and pay for the shipping. It will take 3 days there and 3 days back. I'm leaving on sat. for Springfield, Mo., and will not be back until mid. july. I plan on bringing the plane with me as it "IS" prime flying season. Please rush me a new set asap or just give me my money back. If you want the numbers on the sticker from the gear, they are lot:LG00201-0017. Not the extra tall set.

THANKS

Brent (last name omitted)
(address omitted)

(phone number omitted)

*******************************

----- Original Message -----
From: fiber-lite support
To: Brent (last name omitted)
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: Customer inquiry bad funtana carbon fiber gear


Brent,

Our policy requires any potentially defective gear to be returned for inspection. We need to determine whether the failure was due to a manufacturing defect or misuse.

fiber-lite support
www.fiber-lite.com

*******************************

-----Original Message-----
From: Brent (last name omitted) [mailto: (email address omitted)]
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 11:15 AM
To: fiber-lite support
Subject: Re: Customer inquiry bad funtana carbon fiber gear


It has 4 flights on it and it's pretty hard to mis-use cf landing gear on a funtana. They land better than a trainer. I'll send the damn thing back and you can give me my 25 bux back. By the time you piss around with determining whether it is mis use or defective gear it will be 2 weeks before I see a new set here. I'm leaving sat. and don't have time. Thanks for your wonderful help. If you want a pic of it i can send that to you. that would determine misuse or defective gear.

Brent

*******************************


'nuff said. If you think that Brent was being reasonable then you have my sympathies. I suppose that if a servo were to fail he'd demand an immediate replacement without sending it in. Try that with JR, Futaba or Hitec...see the response you'll get.

I'm not going to thump my chest and tell you all that I never make mistakes. I am (we are) constantly modifying our processes to ensure that problems DON'T arise. The new process / materials we are experimenting with (and trying like hell to perfect) are nearly identical to those used by a manufacturer of CF leaf springs for full-sized vehicles. No joke... So far it's cost me over $1000 and 100 hours. This is the thanks I get...

I'll be honest: Brent is not the first to request a replacement / refund, but he is the first person to be refused one.

-Tom

IowaSilvia

My Feedback: (97)

Just goes to show that you do know they have problems and that if a guy is in a pinch and needs a replacement fast you won't go out of your way to help a fellow rc'er out. If you know the problem then why do you need the bad gear back? You know I didn't abuse it, but that's your only excuse for having it sent back. I told you my situation that I needed the gear fast and that it wouldn't work for me to send it in and then get one back. I'll be gone by then. Too late. Keep my 25bux. You won't ever get any more. And I'm sure others reading this have mixed fealings about getting stuff from you too.............goodbye

CAPtain232

My Feedback: (40)

I have done a little business with TOM TAYLOR (FIBER-LITE) and I would like to say that this man went out of his way to give me a hand with a custom gear. First impression is that this gear is second to none...... I have not put the gear to use as of yet as the plane has not been finished, but I have bolted it to my plane and I am hoping to get it done soon. The gear is a perfect fit. I have used other CF gear from other manufacturers and I truly believe that this gear should perform as well or better than any other gear that I have used, even on my 35 and 40% planes......

Having said all of this, It is not unlike other companies to require you to send in a defective or broken part before they will send you a new one. In fact I would say it is fairly common practice.... Yes there are some companies that will, but that is usually because they know what the problem is and they have it fixed and know that the customers legitimately need a new part..... This is not to say that you are not a legit customer, but IF there is a real issue with the gear, and as new as FIBER-LITE is, it is more than reasonable for him to ask for the gear back so he can examine it to figure out the issue....... I totally understand your urgency to get the new gear and I agree that it would be nice if you could get a new set before you leave, but for a small company it just simply may not be feasible to accomplish this.

seanychen

My Feedback: (4)

I think we all realize that "Nobody Is Perfect". I bit the dust and spend a buck or so sending my delaminated CF gear to Fiber-lite. No big deal for me. Fiberlite is a new company, and competition promotes improvement, and can benefit us customers in the long run. I personally would like to see Fiber-lite gears come to a robust design. It seems like a lot of improvement has been made since the first batch, because my "new generation" Funtana gear has not delaminated yet.

Brent has a valid point as a customer. So does Tom as a manufacturer. I think we can all make a little accommodation for special circumstances. For example, Tom can send a new gear ahead of time and include a return envelope w/ postage for Brent to send the defective gear to Tom afterwards. It will cost Tom maybe $1, which is a fraction of profit Tom would've made from Brent for future business. Let's think big picture now. Tom, I can guarantee that your business will thrive if you are a little more flexible with your customer treatment, and being a small company it's one of your advantages over the bigger companies.

Also Tom, I wish you would put a phone number on your website, or at least on your receipt, so when we poor souls have problem, we will get faster response, instead of sitting for days w/o know if you'll ever get back to us. We are all impatient as customers, and understanding this aspect will also help you grow.

Having said that my Something Extra gear that I got from you also started to delaminate. I would like to send it in too and get a better replacement.

*************************************************

I do want to talk about the actual gear design with you, Tom. It seems the main cause for delamination of your ealier batches is exhaust related. The side that delaminates is always the side that exhaust blows onto. Carbon fiber is very durabile to fatigue cycles, unless the layer debonds. It seems like you didn't cover for this aspect of testing before you started to sell the initial runs. We all live and learn. The improved Funtana gear I got back from you is heavier (3 oz vs 2 oz), which I don't think was necessary to avoid delamination cause by exhaust. I think the fix is in the adhesive to be fuel proof, not more layers.

$1000 in investment is miniscule. Any tooling investment for an automotive part is on the scale of dozens of k's.

I like your design. I love to see you arrive to a robust design while maintaining the light weight. And I hope to see more configurations for my other planes, like DP Ultimate, UCD3D,…

Let's try to make it an enjoyable hobby.

TT2

My Feedback: (13)

Our policy will remain as it is. Would it make sense to (unreservedly) send out new sets of gear to everyone that claimed that there's had broken? Absolutely not. The possibility for dishonesty is too great. I'm not in business to hand out free sets of gear. As well, I need to inspect the gear sets so I can find out where the failure point was. This helps me determine if there was a defect or if the landing gear was simply abused. If a defect is revealed we can take corrective measures on future pieces.

As you all know, the landing gear sees more abuse than any other part of the airframe (except the rudder for you tail-touchers). On our website’s Landing Gear FAQ we try to explain that our gear are to be considered 'high-performance' items and that a certain amount of landing expertise needs to be attained before they should be considered for use. It is impossible for us to know the circumstances of every 'landing' that the gear is subjected to, the experience level of the pilot, the runway conditions, etc. We rely on our own testing and feedback from customers. Time and time again we've heard praises for how durable our gear is and how it's near 'perfect'. I, myself, pancaked my Funtana 40 into the ground after a low-level snap. The impact was absorbed by the gear, and only minor damage occurred to the airframe. The prototype gear did not delaminate, surface crack, or lose their stiffness. At that point I said ‘Good enough’. Still, several improvements have been made to the original designs.

I am a perfectionist. Anyone who knows me well will tell you that. I want these things to be absolutely perfect, but in the world of composites, perfection is a moving target. Some want more strength but some want them lighter. Some want more stiffness, some want more flexibility. We've tried to balance these attributes and have tailored our gear to the more-experienced flyers…light, forgiving, yet with adequate stiffness for the specified airframe at that airframe’s recommended weight. Our new process will enhance ALL of the characteristics of the gear and will totally eliminate delamination…the gear will break before they delaminate. If they DO break then there probably won’t be anything left of the airframe. Test results have proven that the layup will be similar in strength-to-weight ratio of autoclave-cured prepreg carbon fiber…vastly superior to 'wet' hand-layup methods. The results have been wildly favorable and I’m very excited / anxious about being able to offer such an outstanding part to my fellow fliers.

Our current crop of gear are intended for seasoned pilots…not beginners. Once the new process is totally perfected / adopted they will be suitable for BOTH.

Here's the deal. Brent asked how I could help. I told him. Since it didn't fit into his schedule he developed a crappy attitude which I simply don't have time for. Would I have shipped the replacement to his new location? Absolutely...no problem.

Why no phone number? Working with composites is extremely time-critical. If I had to man the phones 8 hours a day nothing would ever be accomplished. A local hobby shop owner ran into that problem, ended up closing his doors, and now does internet orders exclusively.

This business is a new endeavor and there have been ‘bumps’ along the way. I’m confident that I will be able to provide the best gear available at any price and will not stop trying to improve until EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU are convinced, absolutely, that it is the best gear available…then I, being the perfectionist that I am, will most likely try to improve upon that!

-Tom

Shortman

My Feedback: (21)

I think Fiberlite here is in the right, every product that I have had a problem with is returned to the manufacturer where they promptly send me a replacement. Thats standard procedure. Horizon Hobby did it, Tower Hobbies will sometimes send it before they get it, etc..

seanychen

My Feedback: (4)

Good. Let me know when you will have the "latest and greatest" Something Extra gear, so I can send my delaminated gear. It is for my Flip. If you only have the Funtana w/ the latest & greatest manufacturing process, I will take that instead. Both will work for my Flip.

You can choose to be an internet-only business. Just know you will lose some more traditional customer pool. If it's more profitable for you not to hire a phone admin VS the marginal business dimish, more power to you. I can live w/o phone call if you respond to email timely, which was not my experience. I didn't make a stink like Brent because I am in no ungency whatsoever. Obviously you don't have enough time for prompt customer response to everybody because you invest majority time in R&D and your other main job. Sounds like you can hire someone to take care of the administrative work for you. I think it will be a wise business move for you.

*************************************

Back to tech talk. Can you address your finding with fuel-proofing? I am sure most people who have Fiber-lite gears delaminate on the exhaust side. And you would better sooth our worries if you show us a solution addressed at root cause with some results.

Thanks Tom. I look forward to get more better products from you.

Sean

3DSWEPED

My Feedback: (1)

Negative comment deleted.
Good luck.

Shortman

My Feedback: (21)

On the topic of Horizon and replacement parts, I had first hand experience with a replacement cowl and wheelpants, and my buddy with a plane. They asked both of us to send our stuff back and then shipped the new equipment.

Maybe for little stuff they will send it out before they ship, but I know with there gassers, you got to at least send them back a piece of the product.

Please don't call me a liar or include, especially on my service and customer relations with my online retailers and my own pppppppppppppersonal experience. I have never bought a Fiberlite product, I use Graphtec and they have always been good. So don't include me in any of that.

BTW, I never said I had a problem with Horizon, they are good people and I know some of them personally.

RCSM

My Feedback: (1)

I have 50 flights on( fiber-lite gear the tall set )on my 40 funtana with no problem. I had a dead stick while i was in a hover about 15 to 20 feet high,managed to get some airspeed and flairout right before impact on the fiberlight gear.it hit hard no damage to the plane at all the gear did crack but if it was not for the give in the landing gear the plane would have had a lot of damage.I ordered a new set that I am gladly paying for.I ordered it last week fiber light emailed me it was out of stock.hopefully they will be sending them out soon.

seanychen

My Feedback: (4)

When Pizza Hut was getting into the delivery business, they did not consult Dominos for the delivery practice. They consulted Fed Ex. Last time I checked, there are more Pizza Hut than Dominos in any given city.

Point I am trying to make is, just because the biggest company in a business is doing business a certain way, it doesn't mean it's the best. Tom, you have a choice of following others' practice, or surpassing them. Judging from the percentage of negative notes on this thread, not reaction to Brent's post, but rather reaction to your post, it appears you already lost some more business. I hope you are taking notes.

I actually believe Tom is a perfectionist, at least in spirit about his product, not necessarily about his business. His first batch of CF gears, although lacking in comprehensive testing, is the best looking, lightest, and most un-deformable gear you can get for $20 on eBay. He probably didn't realize that some people would be pointing hot exhaust toward the gear, causing them to delaminate. So, despite this unintended failure, it was a pretty good effort attempt.

IowaSilvia

My Feedback: (97)

All I asked for was a new set that had delaminated after 4 flights and would send the old one back once I got some time. However sending it takes 3 days and looking the part over and sending out a new one would take another 4 days. I think most ppl in our hobby are trust-worthy. Anyone I have ever met would do anything to help out. I hand out a glow-plug here and there and give fuel when someone forgets their's or runs out. Just keep in mind when you get in a pinch. How would you like to be treated. Right now I'm cutting grass with my stock funtana gear. ahahahhaah..

CAPtain232

My Feedback: (40)

This is an issue that Brent and TOM need to work out on their own......

I think if ANYONE would decide by this ONE PARTICULAR incident that they do not want to do business with FIBER-LITE, then so be it. But remember that if everyone made hasty decisions like this, we would not have DA or 3W engines or Carden, Aeroworks or any other major plane manufacturer either........ It is Obvious to me that there is a lack of seeing things EYE TO EYE here...... Fiber-Lite is a small business and has the right to do business however they see fit. You have the right to or not to do business with whom ever you choose..... As a businessman in this hobby, I can tell you that if it were products that I was selling, I would most likely handle things in a very similar fashion...... THERE ARE a lot of dishonest people in this hobby and the businesses have to protect their backsides..... LET IT BE KNOWN that I understand that it may NOT be you that is one of the dishonest people, but if he cuts you a break then the same would have to be done for others and that is when he gets taken..... It only takes one to spoil the bunch....

As he suggested, did you even ask if he could ship it to the location where you are going to be? It could have been that simple......ship him the gear and he gets your new one to you where ever you are......

SMALLFLY-

My Feedback: (19)

Tom (fibre lite) went out of his way to design and make some CF landing gear for a 24% extra last year for me and It was a great product. His policy seems very logical to me and I would not hesitate to buy from him again. As a matter of fact I was just wondering if he would be interested in designing some lightweight CF gear for the taco ( preferably for the 28 oz E taco) to save the weight of the wire gear

trailingedge

My Feedback: (1)

IowaSilvia I think you need to keep cutting grass with your stock gear or make some c/f gear yourself. That way you won't have to whine when someone doesn't rush to kiss your derriere if it breaks. I have a set of fiber-lite gear on my funtana and couldn't be more pleased. I understand that Tom is running a small business and to be honest, I like it that way. There's no one to pass the buck off to. Hey here's an idea for you. Why don't you and 3DSWEPED market C/F gear with a an advance replacement guarantee. I wonder how much money you'll be making while you're "lonely at the top". Oh, I forgot you guys are just in it to help others...


Bottom Line:
From my experience Tom is a straght shooter and I would buy from him again.

DadsToysBG

My Feedback: (35)

This is one answer to the problem that I as a LHS owner would use. Pay for a new gear with a CC. If the retuned gear is found to be at fault I would to a charge back on the card. This way everybody gets want they want. Dennis

seanychen

My Feedback: (4)

I am curious, does your exhaust blow onto the CF gear directly?

TT2

My Feedback: (13)

Sean, I initially dismissed that the reason the gear was failing was due to them not being fuel-proof. The epoxies used are highly chemical-resistant. HOWEVER!!! (alarm bells going off) the HEAT from the exhaust would ABSOLUTELY contribute to failures! The HDT (heat deflection temperature) of the resins used are in the neighborhood of 180-190 degrees farenheight. Exhaust from a two-stroke is much hotter...exhaust from a four-stroke is even hotter still. I will make note of this and encourage users to be careful when it comes to routing the exhaust. I suppose that higher operating temperature epoxies could be used but the post-curing cycles would be longer and more complicated, and the post-curing temperatures would be much higher...which leads to higher prices. These aren't supposed to be 'space shuttle tiles'.

Guys, thank you for your support and opinions (positive and negative). Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't think there is a company in existance that has not been bad-mouthed by at least one of it's customers. You just have to consider the source and draw your own conclusions.

-Tom