MajorTomski

But did you know that all of the 1:1 pilots got the idea for hovering from a model? Several years ago the IAC had the world competitions here in Oklahoma City. Sean McMurtry was asked to demo the 1:1 routine with his big Extra during the opening ceremonies in a football(US) stadium. He did the pattern and ended with a hovering torque roll. For that he got a standing ovation from the worlds best aerobatic pilots. They've been trying to copy Sean's hovering ever since!

Ian.W

The turbo raven was very close.

quote from wayne handlys site:
In 1998, Wayne began flying airshows in the Oracle Turbo Raven. The Oracle Turbo Raven, powered by a 750 HP Pratt & Whitney PT6A-25C, was the first airshow airplane to have a positive thrust-to-weight ratio. With a performance weight of 1,900 pounds and 2,800 pounds of thrust, the Turbo Raven could climb straight up, stop in the vertical line, and then accelerate straight up again


I think the reason why hovering hasnt been done really beofre is pilot orientation and obvioulsy money. if yo crash a small RC plane while hovering you can glue it back together. meby at the maximum have to spend a couple of 100 on the plane to repair it. however full scale is different that in if you crash at low level
1. youl damage you plane. not only a few 100 to repair like a model, but thousands if not millians if you need a new one
2. pilot safety
3. and most importanat is crowd safty. to get the croud all amazed about seing a plane hover on the deck youd need to be close, if your close and you mck up you could do some serious damage, injuries and possible death.

If you could overcome al the orientataion and safety problems with a high powered plane i see no reason why you couldnt hover. i would also think youd need a variable pitch prop as throttling isnt as good on full size so the pitch must change. i know the turbo raven had one and other may also

Rhilluk

edible, the turbo raven had a constant speed prop like most turboprops. Propellor rpm stays more or less the same, just the pitch changes and more power is consummed from the engine.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

i wouldn't say that humming bird thing counts.

RightThrust

My Feedback: (4)

edible, sorry but you are quite incorrect in your statements. You're points as to why full scale's aren't hovering are completely invalid, especially when you're talking about the turbo raven.

The turbo raven wasn't built to be as aerobatic as Sean Tucker's pitts, Jim LeRoy's pitts, Kirby's Edge, etc... It was built for one soul purpose, to climb REALLY fast. With it's reversable pitch props (which most all turbo props have), it could also descend at an incredibly steep angle with a low airspeed. This also caused the airplane to pancake after the propeller manfunctioned and got jammed in reverse pitch. It would be very impractical for any turbine powered airplane to hover, especially for cooling reasons.

The only planes that are hovering, are reciprocating engine powered. You need quite a bit more than 1:1 ratio to pull out of a hover, it takes alot of power to get all of that weight moving again. You must remember full scale is nothing like r/c when it comes to things like this. The main problem for reciprocating powered planes as far as hovering goes is cylinder head temps. Jim LeRoy can hover for about 10 seconds or so as he watches his CHT's go all the way to redlike, then he pushes out and let's his engine cool down.

BTW, most every high performance aerobatic airplane out there has "variable pitch props" technically known as constant speed props. The RPM is maintained around 2,700 or so and all the pilot has to control is the throttle, the prop governer does the rest. I wouldn't expect anyone hovering near ground, much less backing the airplane down to the ground like a model until something VERY innovative comes out for a propulsion system.

TailTwister

My Feedback: (1)

I've watched the Oshkosh aerobatics show a couple of times now, and many of those guys did a torque roll of some kind. The way they do it looks like the plane is hovering anywhere from maybe 5 seconds to possibly 10 seconds before it tail slides. With the distance involved, I couldn't for sure tell when the plane stopped climbing, and started to fall or how long in between. I did not see Wayne Handley fly the ill fated Turbo Raven. I've never seen a video of him showing a hover and vertical climb out. All I can say is that if there ever was a plane to do it, it was the Turbo Raven. A plane at 1900 pounds at 2800 pounds of thrust has the power to do it, and pilot orientation is not an issue. All they care about is having the bullseye level with the horizon. The only hinderance I'd see is the overheat problem someone else mentioned. Turbines like smooth airflow in and out. If all the sudden it was having to pull hard to breath, it might want to heat up, or just plain quit. I guess that doesn't say it can't, won't, or didn't do it...

I did see Kirby Chambils do his "Cobra". He is all but 90 degrees nose up. He isn't there long, and he also does not climb straight up, or anywhere near it. He pushes the nose right back down and flies the plane out. The poor Lycoming 580 is howling when he does that, and the prop is way supersonic.

I would say that there are many full scale pilots with planes that would harrier, but none will hold a hover for more than a handful of seconds. At the (model aircraft) field, I've heard guys say, "it's almost hovering", and all I see is a real slow tail slide. Does it count? Well, to them it did. I guess it's one of those "eye of the beholder" things. When does a hover become a hover? If one second counts, then most Gullows planes will hover.

Rhilluk

But I've seen him do it, I have seen him do, I have seen Him do it.But I've seen him do it, I have seen him do, I have seen Him do it.But I've seen him do it, I have seen him do, I have seen Him do it.But I've seen him do it, I have seen him do, I have seen Him do it.But I've seen him do it, I have seen him do, I have seen Him do it.But I've seen him do it, I have seen him do, I have seen Him do it.But I've seen him do it, I have seen him do, I have seen Him do it.But I've seen him do it, I have seen him do, I have seen Him do it.But I've seen him do it, I have seen him do, I have seen Him do it. END OF STORY

lab123

[color=red]PLASTIC LUNAR MODULE CAN HOVER

AWDEVO8

HEY FOOFY- Did you see him do?

Skibo777

I'm with foofydoo. I saw Wayne do it at an Edwards AFB show years ago. Actually stopped his climb on the vertical line, actually hovered there for about 15 sec without climbing or tail-sliding back down, then preceded to power out of the hover vertically. His performance was insane. The major reason that I went to that particular show was to see Wayne and the TRaven.

Rhilluk

Thank you skibo, this is driving me mad, all this first plane to hover, IT'S BEEN DONE.
I also think edible has some good points, that's probably not why they can't do it. It is because piston engines don't produce enough power to pull out of the hover, I saw a figure in the VTOL forum that it needs to be a ttw ratio of about 1-1.12.
But looking at what Sean and greg do, I'm pretty sure they are mad enough, sorry - good enough to go right down to the deck with enough power. Crowd safety doesn't come into it when there a good 200m from them>
I saw him do and I saw him do it.

And I think chuck yeager did it as well or something along the lines of it.

I saw wayne hover, then tilt to the left, then to the right, and then straight up. You can also tell he's hovering by the way the smoke is coming out.

TailTwister

My Feedback: (1)

Yeah, but has anyone actually SEEN him do? I'm just kidding foofydoo.

I figured by what his site said that he had done it, but the actual wording just said that the plane could do it. I didn't want to say anything more definate than that, without the first hand experience. I'm truly pissed that I never saw the plane fly. If there was a professionally done tape of his show, I'd be inclined to buy it.

I also think that if Sean Tucker had a 1.3 or 1.5 to 1 thrust to weight ratio, he would be torque rolling right down on the deck. Probably with Jim LeRoy off his wing tip. They would have to pass a law or something to keep those two from doing it. Both guys have "it" where it counts. But reality is that they all have to get from 450 hp to 750ish, without major weight gain. Maybe thay will go to two strokes or something? How much horsepower could a 6 cylinder 600 cu.in. two stroke make? Can you imagine the noise? My snowmobile had a 600cc 3 cylinder that made 118 horses and it was freakin' loud!. I dunno how it will happen, but 4 stroke piston engines have a long way to go.

And yes, the full scale areobatic shows are well back, since the accident with the Canada team in Paris.

heavy_metal

[size=5][color=red]FULL SCALE LUNAR LANDER (A PIECE OF IRON, CARTON, ALUMINUM, PLASTIC?) OF NASA PHOTOSHOP CAN HOVER.

I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT. I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.

ittibitty

heavy_metal

[size=5][color=red]FULL SCALE LUNAR LANDER (A PIECE OF IRON, CARTON, ALUMINUM, PLASTIC?) OF NASA PHOTOSHOP CAN HOVER.

I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT. I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.

ittibitty

heavy_metal

[size=5][color=red]FULL SCALE LUNAR LANDER (A PIECE OF IRON, CARTON, ALUMINUM, PLASTIC?) OF NASA PHOTOSHOP CAN HOVER.

I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT. I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.I HAVE SEEN HIM DO IT.

ittibitty

heavy_metal

[size=7][color=#CC00CC]I AM A NEW TROLL

heavy_metal

[size=7][color=#CC00CC]I LOVE YOU, AMERICANS AND I LOVE NASA PHOTOSHOP

468hotrod

My Feedback: (4)

Here's a couple of pictures of Kirby doing his version of a Hover. Very cool... He can't hold it long but its still VERY impressive. He definitely has BIG brass ones!!! I do have video of him doing this if you guys would like to see it.

468hotrod

My Feedback: (4)

Here is Jurgis doing his version of a Hover (He calls it a Cobra) in Japan...

Chris-B-chips

i want to see more vids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!![8D]

matchlessaero

Anyone know if the TurboShark (turbopropped Sukhoi) is flying to the point of being able to do any of the TRaven's tricks yet? It certainly showed the same promise as the TR early on?

TailTwister

My Feedback: (1)

I saw that plane sitting on the ground at the last EAA. It didn't fly, but it was a near clone of the TRaven. I thought that's what it was until I got close. It looked like a bashed Sukhoi 26MX. It was a fairly good size plane.

ghess5558

I'm a pretty big fan of the Turbo Raven. I have a 1/3 scale Turbo Raven that took a year to complete. I wish I would have gotten to see the full scale fly before it crashed. I have read a lot about the T Raven on the net. Wayne had the idea for the plane but, Oracle basically paid to build the plane. (Larry Ellison, CEO of Oracle is a big time aviation buff and good friend of Wayne.) I believe it cost around $600,000 to build and I think $150,000 - $200,000 of that was just to purchase that engine. (He had to have the military version because it had inverted fuel and oil systems on it.) I used to wonder everyday why someone else hasn't built something similar to the Turbo Raven or even rebuilt the Turbo Raven until I found that article on the net that said what the T Raven cost to build. I would have to say that's the main reason we haven't seen a full scale plane "hover" or another plane like the Turbo Raven. Money....or I should say lack of it. Wayne was really lucky to have the connections he had. You can't tell me that Sean Tucker or Jim Leroy and a lot of other pilots haven't thought about. You know they have. Who wouldn't want to be the next one to have a plane like the T Raven but, I don't see any of them spending their own money to build one. Heck, it's not like you have to go back to the drawing board. The T Raven was the most awesome airshow plane of the time and proved itself. All it will take is someone with money or connections or both but, it's just a matter of time before we see another full scale airshow planes hovering. I also think that Turbo Prop engine that Wayne used is still the way to go because of the power it puts out compared to it's weight. Believe it or not, back in the mid 70's there was someone who had the crazy idea of putting a turbo prop on a Great Lakes Biplane. Check it out here. http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepGreatLksTrbn.html


Gary Hess

ghess5558

Here is the Turbo Shark. That has to be the ugliest thing I've ever seen!! The engine isn't even in line with the fuse. Looks like it's going to fall off.

Eyeguy

My Feedback: (1)

Man - this Turbo Raven was a beauty of an airplane. Wish I could have seen it in action. These guys here are producing a RC version -> http://airasys.com/