How to torque roll?
 

Hi Guys,
I've been trying to do consistent torque rolls for a few years now, and I have gotten to the point where I can set it up consistently and even get through one roll ok. In the sim I can get through two or three torque rolls and I even hit four one time, but it always seems to wobble and fall apart after about two. What is the secret to getting a continuous torque roll? I'm using a Global Freestyle and I just put a Magnum 108 on it but I haven't gotten the motor broken in and reliable yet so I haven't tried a torque roll with it yet, but with the YS 63 I had on it I had enough power to torque roll and even pull out slowly. I'm thinking that all my rates are too high because the more I correct the worse it gets. What is a good amount of rates? My elevators each have one servo and they move 90deg total throw, the rudder is at max throw, about 70 deg total throw. I'm thinking I should use a lower rate for torque rolls. -Tom

How to torque roll?
 

Hi wingspan99!

>>What is the secret to getting a continuous torque roll?<<

Practice, baby, practice. :-) Other than that?... there are just so many things. A bigtime TOC pilot told me to make sure I had enough expo dialed in so that I wasn't over correcting... that may be the first place you want to look.

Beyond that... again, there are many things. One thing that really works for me... if I'm flying a Cap... I really concentrate on the elevator. I try to keep the pitch of the plane locked in at all times. That seem to work really well... and letting the Cap fall while torqueing really speeds up the spin. With an Edge I concentrate on rudder... the Edge's seem to lock in on pitch.

I bought another H9 Edge yesterday RTF w/ Saito 1.80. I forgot how much fun these planes are. It was radically underpowered... but the ease of which it locks into a torque roll lets you know that not all planes are created equal.

I've flown the Freestyle with a Saito 100... TR'n was not too bad... but it was pretty pitch sensitive, too. My friend had to rock the CG back quite a bit to improve its tendencie to dive out hard. It's not a bad plane... but IMO, it is not your best choice for learning to lock in to some serious revolutions.

TR'n is about 50% of how I spend my time when I'm flying... so we can talk about this ad nauseam if you like. :D

Bumps
 

My best recommendation is to make bump inputs. Don't hold the correction. Bump the control and get back off of it. If you try to correct and hold it you will be over correcting all of the time. Bump the input and a small burst of throttle if you need more or fast responce and then get back to neutral.

Thanks guys, how about the DP Ultimate
 

Thanks for the tips. I have noticed if I let it drop then use elevator as the primary means of correcting that I can hold it longer. It seems that for straight hovering rudder is very important but once I get rolling the much more powerful elevator is more important. I have noticed that if I get some sideways motion going, it is bound to dive off to one side, but it is almost impossible to stop. I've noticed that the speed of the correction is more important than the amount of correction.
Maybe improving my overall ability to balance a stick on one finger would help me balance the plane on the prop. That's what it really is, sort of like a balancing/juggling act no?
I was thinking maybe the Ultimate would be better for torque rolls due to the shorter wingspan.

How to torque roll?
 

Hi wingspan99!

Bean is totally right... and...

>>Maybe improving my overall ability to balance a stick on one finger would help me balance the plane on the prop.

Hmmmm... that's not a bad idea. :-) But, TR'n is like alot of things... the best way to practice for _____ is to do it.

It always starts with the plane for me. I want to get it setup to respond as close to my expectations for my inputs as possible. The CG, the amount of throw, and the expo change the way the plane responds... so this is the first place I start on a new plane.

Next... you want to feel good (not come to the field after wrenching all night)... be relaxed... not rushed or anxious about anything. TR at no more than 50' and preferably 30' (bring it down lower when you have the skills and horsepower to be sure you can always get out of trouble). Then really focus your eyes on the plane... hard... and instead of waiting for it to fall out... try to anticipate what it's going to do and get a small correction in early. Keep anticipating and keep getting in early.

Then there's conditions... even a little wind will make me work for it... the no wind days are a real treat. TR'n is so much easier with no wind. Try to get in on the no wind time of day to strengthen your odds of success.

Be totally fearless, but not reckless... if that's possible.<g>

How to torque roll?
 

Yes, yes and yes to everything Bean and Joe have said. My only input is if you want to TR and not hover I have found that most planes need to be at exactly 90 degrees nose up or tilted just slightly towords the canopy to get them spinning. If your looking to just hover the nose can be something less than 90 degrees.

Nothing takes the place of practice for these super demanding maneuvers. It takes a long time of consistent work to get it down.

Keep at it. Nothing beats seeing your plane down low, hangin there and spinning..

One more thing I will add. You dont need and expensive, TOC Gasser to learn. I learned the most about TR'ing with my Doghouse Extreme. Its basically a .45 sized sport plane with the right power combination and very well balanced control surfaces.

This is a pic of me with mine.

How to torque roll?
 

Heres what the top looks like on my Doghouse Extreme.

How to torque roll?
 

>>Nothing beats seeing your plane down low, hangin there and spinning.<<

You said it, brother! :cool:

How about throttle ratchets?
 

I used to fly heli's and the smooth throttle stick is something that I think would be good for hovering throttle control. I can slip a piece of fuel tubing over the ratchet spring in the radio and still get some drag, but very smooth drag. Anyone use this?
Why do guys bump the throttle during hover? Does that produce more torque than steady throttle, or are the bumps coordinated with elevator and rudder corrections?
Would it be possible to find a "hover throttle setting" and put it on the idle up switch or something?
I'm expecting a new Fut 9CAP today and now I've got gadgetitis, which is the uncontrollable urge to use every switch on the radio whether it's useful or not. I'll get over it in a week or so and deprogram all the crash switches. With the snow we've got here, I doubt I'll be able to fly for a week or so.
-Tom

bump
 

WHen you are in a torque roll the only input that you get is off of the prop blast. When you bump the throttle you increase the blast and you will get a sharper response. You get more air on the tail.

How to torque roll?
 

Hi Tom!

As far as the sticks go... I actually loosen mine up from the stock setup. I could probably only 3D for two minutes if I didn't.... my thumbs would just get too tired.

Listen to anyone TR'n and you'll hear the throttle stick working overtime. Without the prop blast from the throttle bumps you'll be hard pressed not to fall out quickly. Which brings me to simulators.

Couple of things... you said you use one and can get 3 or 4 rotations sometimes. First thing... the sims are not realistic. They are great for getting the orientation right while TR'n. But, after that they might do more harm than good. With the sim you can just fix the idle (on certain models, anyway) and make corrections with the control surfaces. That will not work with a real planes. Second thing... I could TR indefinitely (5-10 minutes or until my thumbs had stick holes in them) on the sim before I could get even two rotations at the field. Now I have trouble with the sim (which I rarely play with anymore) but I can TR at the field for what sometimes feels like indefinitely (mostly until the wind blows me too far away to see anymore<g>).

As encouragement, though, alot of guys I know have been working on it for quite some time and still fall out immediately when the belly starts to come around to face them. So, you're not doing too bad. :-)

OTOH, my 14 year old is picking it up immediately... don't you just hate kids? ;-)

TR's indefinitely
 

I have definitely made a breakthrough on my TR's and slow rolling circles on this sim R/C Pilot, because just like you said when the belly would show to me I'd give the wrong rudder and elev, but I'm over that now. As usual, sims can teach a few reflexes but are no substitute for the real thing. I performed a TR in the sim yesterday with five revolutions. I started with just .75 revolution a week ago and have been increasing about one half rev a day so I know I'm getting somewhere.
If I can TR continuous I'd be the only member of my club. Even Dean, who just won Masters FAI pattern at the NATs I believe, bought a 3D CAP to learn 3D and he's just started working on his first rev.
I smoothed out my thottle stick on my 9CAP and it feels real nice. A piece of silicone fuel tubing on the ratchet spring still allows the drag to be set and now there's no ratchet. It will not go to 0% without holding it down, it goes to 1% without that last ratchet detent but it sort of functions as an idle-down when I pull it down on landing. I've been thinking about making a rubber bumper on the low side of my TX stick just for that reason even though the 9CAP has an Idle Down feature anyway, it sure is nice to get the idle lower sometimes just by pulling the stick down a little harder. The throttle cut feature ought to reduce the number of high idle landings from now on though, as I will not be touching the idle setting between flights. I fly from a rather short field. The grass runway itself is long enough but it has a 15' rise from the middle to either end, so if I go a little bit too far past the apex of this runway I will glide 3x further than I would in a level runway. It's possible to land uphill, downhill, or level all in the same day. One side has power lines 50yds from the end, the other side has a house 100 yds away at the end of the runway,

How to torque roll?
 

Hi Tom!

One other difficult part, mentally, is that you know how much time you have invested building the plane (not to mention money)... and it is tough to relax when you are doing a risky maneuver.

Sounds like you're on the right track, though. And, unless you're a kid with understanding (i.e., rich<g>) parents... it's going to take some effort.

Like you said... how many guys at the field can really do it? That is a good indiction of how much time it takes to get good at it. Curious how everyone on the NET can do it, though? ;-) And, we're all Ph.D.s and Engineers, etc., too. :-)

RCO
 

Well said JBH ! It's very interesting how many interneters can TR. I've been flying in KC for twenty-two years and had never seen it done around here by anyone. Some could do a bit of quick hovering but no torque rolling. I had to buy a video to see exactly what it was and from there, I wanted to learn. I cheated and used a gyro until I could do it better.

John W.
AMA 138744

How to torque roll?
 

Hi John!

Yeah... it's hard to just come out and tell a guy that when he says he's TR'n or has awesome unlimited vertical when he pulls out of a hover... that he's not talking about the same thing you are... or that you wouldn't describe his plane the same way if you flew it. It's a very touchy, and ego driven thing. :-)

What I liked about Tom was that it was obvious he was being realistic and was on the right track. Like you said... you've been around all this time and never saw a TR. I met a club member at my field last night who I hadn't met before... he has been flying since '76. He said the same thing. He was watching me TR and said he'd never seen anyone at a club do that. He was really honest about himself and the average flyer... kinda harsh actually. I told him that most everyone I see at the field comes away smiling and that is the main thing. But, you're both right... out of the over 1k members at our surrounding club fields... I know of only two of us that can TR.

One more tip, or lets say comment, I'll throw in the mix. Having just come off my best ever flying day... the difference was... at some point I let my fingers go. I'd been TR'n just like a stiff boxer that has to let his punches go. Sure, I was TR'n... and he was punching. But, he wasn't punching with the relaxed, quick, power that he was in the gym. And, I wasn't torque'n with the relaxed, quick, reflexes I have with the SIM. It's so hard for him and me... because now... there is so much more at stake.

To really take it to the next level... as Quique said... "you have to know what you're doing." That is a priority. But, then, once you do... you have to let your sub-conscience just do it. Sometimes I can do math like an autistic... but never when I think about the math problem. For instance... when I'm TR'n at one end of the runway... I can't think about what inputs are going to get me to the other end. I just think that I want to get the plane over this way... my sub-conscience mind can handle sending the appropriate inputs needed to my thumbs. My conscience mind has little chance of getting it right. It's just too controlling. I had to learn this with Golf and many other hand to eye activities, too. First you have to learn the inputs from any attitude... then you have to trust that you know them and fly. No example in day to day life is better than a person walking down stairs without looking at their feet. Proof positive that we all can do it... just a question of whether or not we will allow ourselves to.

We should write a book... The Inner Game Of Torque Rolling. :-)

Letting go and trusting
 

Hi JBH,
I have come to the conclusion that in order to get my flying to the next level I will have to "Let go" and stop trying to think my way through each and every control input. Until now this has worked for me because I can think fast, and it's very easy on the planes :) I've always had difficulty letting my subconcious take over my hands or body motions so it will take some time. This means I will probably have some inexplicable "dumb thumb" crashes where hand/eye coordination failed, as opposed to explicable ones where judgement or equipment failed. I must say that RC Pilot is the best thing to happen to my flying. The price on this sim has dropped to $49.95 with the rc controller box included. It uses the same physics software as G2. I flew both of these sims last week and they feel the same, except G2 allows you to tweak the planes a lot.
I can get two torque rolls consistent now, and a max of five revs one time. I know in G2 I could make a "torque roller" just by upping engine torque % settings, but would that be realistic?
Thanks to everyone for their input so far, if you think of anything please just add it to the thread as I'm subscribed to it still.
-Tom

RCO
 

JBH, here's one thing that I don't understand about my own flying. I'm now practicing on lowering my planes down to ground level (I only have 2 that are set up and balanced right for TR) and have noticed something obvious. I see all these guys on video, standing right next to their planes and TR'n. For unknown reason(s), I seem much more comfortable and more successful when my plane is torque rolling at about ten or fifteen feet up, but get this..here's what I don't understand, I do it much better (smoother) when the plane is about 25 feet away from me, rather than up close to me!? I don't know if it's a fear factor or what just yet. I'm hoping to overcome this soon and do it closer to me. I think I have a better perspective of the plane when it's away from me. Same thing applies for hovering and TR'n. Have you experienced this?

Thanks,

John Wells

How to torque roll?
 

RCO,
I agree. Its easier to TR and hover when you can see the plane a little farther out. When its up close your eyes have to move farther to view the whole plane and notice trends. The guys who do it low and close are way beyond the stage that most of us are at. They are just that good.

How to torque roll?
 

Hi Tom!

>>Until now this has worked for me because I can think fast, and it's very easy on the planes<<

Right, right... exactly.

>>This means I will probably have some inexplicable "dumb thumb" crashes where hand/eye coordination failed<<

Right, right... what happens is you're doing awesome, flying way over your head, and it looks perfect... but, then you get scared and your conscience mind tries to take over. That's when the dumb thumb happens. But, you don't have to crash... when your conscience mind takes over... tell it to neutralize the sticks and full power out of there. Do this before your conscience mind has blown it so bad you're pointing at the ground... of course. ;-)

As far as torque realism... in the real world, that is totally plane/engine/prop/condition dependant. When I TR my friend's H9 Edge-540 it will instantly start spinning like a top (way cool). My H9 33% Cap doesn't want to spin at all. I have to drop it and then kick in some high rate aileron with a little burst of power. After that it goes a medium pace which looks pretty attractive. :-)

You are on the right track, and the sims are great for getting the orientation down. Keep on the sim until you can TR while holding a conversation with your spouse and only watching the TR out of the corner of your eye. :-) Really, you want to get to a point where you can keep one TR going indefinitely on the SIM. Keep after it... you'll get it. :-)

How to torque roll?
 

Hi John!

>>For unknown reason(s), I seem much more comfortable ... Have you experienced this?<<

Yes, definitely. But, you answered your own question. Comfort. At first I felt comfortable with my plane about 90' up and 150' away when I tried to TR. If it got anywhere inside of that I felt fear. I forced the plane lower and closer over time. Each new view of the plane always made me uncomfortable. Now if the plane is 30' up and 50' away it seems too far away to bother with. OTOH, this week I've had it close enough to touch and I am =not= comfortable with it there.<g> 10' away and 5' up is nice and cozy at the moment. I've mentally rehearsed catching it if ever flames out. I don't know how successful I'll be, though. :-)

I don't know if I'll be able to continue pushing the comfort zone of the view of the plane much longer though. We're having a board meeting Thursday about hovering over the runway. I might have to get used to hovering it some 100' away. :-(

How to torque roll?
 

Joe,
At the last place I flew I was told by our safety officer that Hovering over the runway while their are other people in the air is kinda distracting to them. I tend to agree even though it was me they were talking about. I agreed to only do the low TR's and hovers over the runway while there was noone else in the air. If I was flying with other people in the air I would just do them a little farther out.
If people know what I wanted to do they'd stay out of the air for the 10 mins I was up. Just common courtesy. Same couretsy we gave a fellow Heli flyer who wanted to do aerobatics with his helicopter over the runway. We all just landed and let him go at it.
Did you know Helicopters can hover also?? ;)

How to torque roll?
 

Hi Wayne!

I've been pushing this pretty hard this week at the field. I felt like there was a perspective problem at first (belly of a 97" wingspan close enough to touch)... but as I spent more time with it there the perspective didn't seem to be the problem.<g> It was more the fact that I was... well?... scared.<g>

I am near sighted, though.<g> Which is why I think I took up TR'n in the first place.<g> I certainly can't follow those jets around the sky. I'd stuff one in a heart beat. ;-)

How to torque roll?
 

Can you 3D a jet? If not, why bother.........LOL

How to torque roll?
 

Hi Wayne!

I think it will go the same way here. What's difficult is that our membership is so high. We have 400 members. There are always six guys flying (which is the limit) any given minute. If they make that the ruling... and give no special time for me (and Mickey) to hover?... it's going to be a real bummer.

I want to be totally cooperative with all the other flyers... I just hope they'll give me and Mickey some kind of consideration, too. We'll see Thursday night.

How to torque roll?
 

My girlfriend is so frustrated that I've shown no interest in driving her new car. I always ask her, "Can I torque roll it?" lol