CaptJohn, The rods you saw being used with a Propane torch or a Mapp torch are the ones I talked about earlier in this thread. I have the hang of using them now and can weld up mufflers that stay together. I haven't done Mig or Tig but I have done gas, Actelene, Prestolite, Propane etc., so I watched the guy at a Flea Market myself, and then I knew it wasn't just a promotion to sell something, I just messed with it until I got the hang of it. But, now I have been researching Mig welders myself. I have been looking at a couple of Clarke brand welders a model 130EN 130 Amp wirefeed, which is a 120 volt input for $400 plus s&h and a model 180EN wirefeed and 220 volt input. Both have carts and the conversion kit for gas and the 180EN is $500. I have an electrical background so I took notice of the duty cycles, the 130EN is 30%@90Amps and the 180EN is 25% @ 130 Amps. The 130 Amp model would no doubt be suitable for what I want, mostly thinner metal welding. (I already have a Lincoln 220Amp stick Welder.) I still would prefer a 220 volt input model. I saw these Clarkes in a Northern Tool & Equipment catalog. They aslo have a website. I would think these are a grade up from the Harbor Freight Welders without being too high priced. I watch the Hot Rod and Bike building shows on TV, some of those guys have real talent, using their Mig Welders, and I am beginning to want one. In looking through catalogs, I noticed that with the Flux wire Welders, that don't need gas, the spools of this gasless flux wire is noticeablly more expensive, so the gas would probably be cheaper in the long run. It seems that you get more splatter with the gasless wire also, as some of you might be able to confirm. I would use a Mig for Car body repair and similiar thin steel, but didn't one of you say that a Mig isn't the greatest for welding model mufflers and TIG is better? Anyone have any comments on the Clarke brand of Welders? They have aluminum, mild steel, and stainless steel wire for these in 3 different diameters, and now who knows how useful Mig would be for Aluminum for model use?