...tknobby - it think you're on the right track - i felt like i wasted a lot of hours starting out doing downwind hovers - i kept it almost perfectly vertical & the Knife would almost immediately go into a 1/2 torque roll, belly facing me - tough for a beginner and i never felt comfortable below 8-15 ft...i was able to occasionally pull off a complete torque roll at this altitude - but even a slight breeze blows your plane away making it hard to see in a hurry!...

...last month, i got some much-needed advice from the experts on RC Universe (WGeffon for one) - he suggested - 1. a four stroke makes hovering easier 2. starting out, keep your plane at a little less than vertical so it doesn't torque roll 3. hover into the wind

...seemed to work for me - i was able to bring it on down for some pretty low harriers/hovers - a couple of tail touches - it's a lot more fun & easier to see when you can bring it down lower - i've had it out 3-4 times now since i've been doing the lower level harriers/hovers...still no torque rolls on the deck - that's a whole 'nother level of difficulty, IMO...