Please take this as face value. I will repeat many times in this post I have no dog in this hunt. I will not be flying AMA pattern Masters Class any time in the near future. Seems a preface must accompany these types of posts. This is not an attack in any way....this a things that make you go Hmmmmmmm type of post.

I did not voice my opinion to my contest board member as it doesn't affect my flying in any way at all. The rules I fly under have nothing to do with AMA competition regulations and therefore I feel the pilots it affects directly should have the say.


This post is a little long...but I felt some interesting ideas popped into my head. This dialog was brought on in answering a question about the max allowed voltage in AMA pattern. This discussion is merely that. I have no dog in the hunt at all and will continue to fly F3A. However I find it curious that AMA masters class struggles for identity and "even" footing with F3A as a destination class. I'll say right now I'm not in favor of any mandatory class advancement, and not in favor of the current masters class top heavy issues. When we attend a contest now...I'm usually one of 3-4 F3A pilots and in California we have to sit through 10-12 Masters pilots at a shot for each round. Consider that the F3A pilots gets tapped on the shoulder 3-4 rounds out of six...This means we are sitting the chair a fair bit of the weekend. I throw out some observations and not taking sides with any of these issues. As I stated they do not affect me....I fly F3A and will continue to do so.


here is the electric part of that discussion. It transitions at the end to some think about things that were passed this last go around.

The rule just passed by the AMA contest board limits the voltage to the 42V nominal just like F3A. This rule takes affect in January 2009. Current rule for AMA classes.... there is no rule on maximum voltage today. Until January 09' you could run a 12S system if you like. After January 09 this is no longer allowed.

Not sure on the reasoning behind that change. The no limit as it has been for some time would have allowed for lighter weight batteries. Yes there would have been more voltage and more cells in the series column but less capacity needed means far fewer cells in the parallel column. Since the Watts is Volts * Amps, Voltage goes up amps goes down from the power equation.

So with the voltage increasing by 20% the current would be reduced by 20%. Not to mention the lower the current draw the more efficient the system will be.

My opinion has always been in running a 12S system you could likely reduce the battery needed down to a 3500-4000mah pack. A couple years ago when I was looking at the electric setup I thought this would be a huge advantage to Electric. But Alas I don't fly AMA pattern and the F3A rule is 42V unloaded.

I did the math using the 5300mah prolite packs from Thunderpower back when I was running electric. This is a 10S 4P setup at 5300mah. 40 cells that are basically 1300mah each.

So if you go to 12S setup on this same pack you end up with 2 extra cells for the series yet you reduce the total number of cells in Parallel. The pack would be a 4000mah pack instead of a 5300. This is the 20% reduction in capacity to give equal power out in the equation.. The new pack would be a 12S 3P pack....So the total number of cells is 36 instead of 10S4P packs 40 cells.

To give you an idea on the weights of these savings a 2S 1320 RX pack same cells as the 5300 prolite packs.... is 60g...so a 4 cell savings would be at least 100g maybe 120g Not to mention 4 less cells costs less too....you just reduced the number of total cells, weight, and cost by 10%. ( 4 less cells out of the 40cell pack is 10% less weight)

The 12S would give more power also...Remember the motors run on RPM per Volt. The KV rating of the motor. So you would actually have more power at a lower weight. and with the gain in efficiency of reducing the current draw by 20% you would definitely improve on the system. Current draw numbers would drop from 60-70amps down to 48-56amps and you gain efficiency because of lower current draw. This means its much easier on battery life and battery capacity...So the 4000mah pack is plenty.


I don't know about the current batch of motors but I do know there are controllers that will handle 12S voltage setups.

All of this exercise is pretty mute now as the vote was taken and it passed. You guys in AMA pattern are stuck at the same level as F3A. This would have been a solution that could have really given the glow engine a run for its money in the power department and weight department. How many guys flying electric today would like to have 20% more power for the same weight? Or the bigger question is since electric guys are happy with their power output. How you they like to reduce their battery by 20% capacity and current usage? Or here is a big one How many guys flying electric now would like to reduce the weight of their model by 3-4oz. The current YS 170DZ setup is on average 8-10oz lighter than a similar FAI electric setup. Well if the electric was only 5-7oz heavier and was capable of more power with lower current draw....would this inspire more electric driven AMA pattern models.

Hmm seems like this would have been a way to increase electric reliability, power and reduce cost and weight.

I guess its all what if now, nobody took advantage of the opportunity the last 5 years provided. In pattern the pilots in F3A really determine the setups and direction the sport takes. Perhaps the argument for Masters flying F3A prelim sequences seems to be a more valid today than it has in the past. Masters class or all of AMA is tracking in step with F3A as it is. I think a good case could be made for both judging, flying and rules consistency if Masters followed that last little step.


But then again I have no dog in that hunt and don't have an opinion on it. I'm very happy at the moment flying F3A. Its just very interesting how the rules seem to be evolving and limiting the game yet in the end what is the real reasoning behind the change. I don't think it was the glow guys that proposed that change to the Voltage rule in AMA. Yet the Glow setups will benefit in the long term from this type of rule. Maybe that was the reasoning behind the proposal. Keep parity

I mention this merely because of the interesting turn of events of keeping instep and how AMA pattern struggles to keep its identity. Yet the aircraft, and all the setups seem to trickle down from the top.

I post this not as a Glow vs Electric argument but just as curiosity in the way things have washed out in the last 5 yrs. I seem to see more AMA pattern guys going electric and yet they seem to be putting limits on the very systems that are keeping many top world level pilots with the Glow engines. there is no doubt in my mind if the FAI had raised the Voltage limit on this last rules cycle that there would have been an increase in pilots flying F3A that would have gone electric. Keeping the rule the way it was, and I was in favor of that by the way, kept the electric and glow in much more even footing for F3A. The demands and needs for Masters class are much below the F3A sequence demands of being required to do the Finals patterns too. However it seems that masters adopting the Prelim schedules could keep the models more in line with the F3A rules,a nd model needs.

Just food for thought. I know there are some seriously passionate people that want to keep masters with its own identity as the top national level class. Yet the events and changes in rules seem to deviate from that.

After all look at the masters 2009 sequence. I flew it just before the NATS as a "practice for unknowns" seems to me its a P-07 sequence. Why not just use P-07. The FAI guys will have a good bead on judging it as we flew it for 2 years. If the masters flew the current P-09 then it would really be a shot in the arm for judging as the pilots judging each other would learn from one another and also the judges would be knowing where to look for mistakes too. This would also help with the current F3A judging duties when 3-4 guys have to sit through the 12 Masters pilots. Looking and judging your own sequence would be much easier on brain power than learning a new one as well. Same goes for the Masters guys judging F3A. I can only see a benefit to both groups of pilots. A question comes in what is the benefit to Pattern of keeping Masters its own identity. In light of some of these changes and the look of masters today...I'm finding less and less reason to keep the Masters from the F3A prelim sequences. In the past I was opposed to the masters flying the F3A prelims, however now with these new events by the contest board. I ask my self what are the goals and what would make pattern better for all those pilots involved.

I know there are a bunch of Masters guys that will yell bloody murder they always do when the suggestion comes up to fly F3A Prelims in Masters....yet these rule changes were submitted by Masters Pilots not F3A pilots...and these changes are going into affect and will be the letter of the law until 2011.

A little off topic but interesting related events with the rules changes now coming in place. The sound rule has also now changed for AMA pattern was not the same rule as the FAI rule. The rules change that was submitted and passed now says the rules are the same. This results in a decrease from the current allowed sound level...from 96db(A) to the 94db(A) all surfaces for Masters and all AMA classes.

Things that make you go "hmmmmmm" when considering the identity of an independent and governed Masters class.


I'm not for or against this stuff just interesting changes and I thought some discussion would be good.

The Masters guys can now all threaten to quit flying pattern if we were to fly F3A prelims in the Masters class.

This is the usual turn of events. The argument they give and the stance they take....Yet FAI pilots didn't submit these rules changes that limit the Masters pilots and put them in step with F3A.

I just wanted some dialog regarding some of these changes. I'm also looking for a solution so I can have some fun at a contest too. Sitting for 2 hours straight 3-4 times at local events is wearing thin on me and other F3A pilots that attend these largely Masters populated events. Yet you don't see the F3A guys threatening to quit coming to events...12 masters pilots takes 2 full hours to judge. I have attended 4-5 events this year and at each one I have judges a min of 3 rounds and a max of 5 rounds per contest. That is 6-10 hrs sitting in a chair judging the Masters pilots. This is not the fun part of the contest yet seems to take up most of F3A pilots time at an event.

Flying the current F3A sequence would shorten the sequences a bunch in the time category, plus it becomes a learning experience for both sides. The Masters guys see how the F3A pilots do it and the F3A guys are seeing the little details the masters guys have to offer. To me this seems to promote better flying and more common ground between the two groups of pilots. I know I personally learn more from watching pilots with better skills than myself doing the same maneuvers.

I'm not saying the pilots all compete together in one class. Just that both classes flying the same sequence can't be the end of the world. I think the benefits today far outweigh the.....

"I'm not gonna play, taking my Plane and going home" attitude that has been voiced over the year in opposition to such an idea.

again let me say I have no dog in this fight. As I continue to say I'm not attacking any opinions just looking logically at those opinions. In the past I could agree with them for various reasons. Today I don't agree with those opinions.

I'm going to still attend events and would never threaten my non participation as a way to get my ideas pushed forward. I would submit that anyone that uses the if they do it I won't play answer is not making an argument rather they are just making threats to keep it the way they like it.

I just would like to hear some reasons why Masters class is opposed to such a change given the current 2009 rules.

What in the current P-09 and P-11 sequences are beyond the level of the current or next Masters sequence.

thank you for your time...I didn't attack an thoughts just voiced some observations and opinions. I ask the same respect in turn

Troy Newman