Tony man,

good to see you looking at flying pattern again. Regardless of what class.I agree with you man...on everything save the shorter schedules. I'll get to that.

My question and I'm not pushing it to happen just asking why is it such a bad thing....That is Masters to fly the F3A Prelim sequence only. Not the finals patterns or unknowns....Just the P...thats all we pretty much fly at local events in F3A anyways.

As for the bunch of Masters guys at a local events. I know just a note that if masters and F3A were the same prelim sequence it would make this judging lots of Masters guys easier on the brain, easier on the eyes and simplify judge certification and so on. To me as one of the judges of Masters that is a benefit.

Shorter schedule....You make a good point about the opportunity for a pilot to excel at those extra few figures and overcome a competing pilot. Yes the more chances you have to score points the more accurate the contest result will be. This gives the judges that many more opportunities to get it right. However, I wonder just how different the placings would be if the last 5 figures were removed. Last year the F3A sequences were 23 figures long and essentially the top pilots stayed the top pilots. The "team" stayed the same except Brett was added. Besides last year he was 6th not that far off the team then to begin with. Did the guy thats going to win change? If the placing is not changing then why are we burning out the judges. Its not like the change is from 23 figures to 5 or 9 maneuvers. Another issue to consider is judge fatigue. Its pilot/judging issues...do those last 5 figures really determine the winner better or does the winner come from a standard of higher consistent flying? If the judges have a shortened concentration time perhaps the judging standard could increase too.

I did not like the idea of a shorter F3A sequence until this year. Now having flown it almost a full season. I am very happy about it.

You and I had a similar conversation back a few years ago. The just of that conversation was why aren't we still flying the 60 size models. They were cheaper, smaller, and easier to build at the weight limits. Nothing changed going to the 2 meter and no engine limit rules. Nothing changed I mean in terms of the winner of the contest. The same guys still won even after they went to their 2M electric or 2M bipes or big wide body Partners. I don't see 23 figures down to 17 as changing that result.

I have no doubt that if you flew F3A on the local level it would be very good competition between us as it was before.

Masters 09 being easy. That is one of my points. The anti F3A prelim in Masters answer is Masters is trying to not get complex like FAI yet the current schedule for Masters and the 2009 sequence pretty much bracket P-09 in the middle for skill level. If there is something like a rolling loop or some something why not just replace that figure...P-11 has a loop with 8pt at the top...Why not just replace it with an Avalanche. Or the Figure M that everybody thinks is going to be hard. Just make it an outside 1/2 loop. The elements and judging will still stay in step but a committee could make small tweaks based on a "no roller" rule or even adjust snaps on uplines to normal roll combos but the sequence would still be inline and the benefits reaped in judging and flying.

Many countries do this. They have a National level and a Championship level. Both fly P-09 then the Championship level flies the Finals schedules with unknowns and so on.

If AMA wants to be the same as F3A in terms of rules and models then why not just fly the Prelim sequences is my question?

I don't want to get into the validity of the limits rules....I agree with the F3A rules. If I didn't I would not be flying it. There are other modeling avenues to pursue. Heli's jets, scale, hell for that matter my neighbor flies CL in a local CL club. I found out last week. We have lived on the same street for 2.5yrs.


Oh I know all too well that a 10S setup won the NATS...and not just this year but the last 5 years in a row have been electric 10S setups in FAI at the top.

What my point is why would AMA pattern take the decision to limit the system to 10-S when there was no need to do it. I still contend that 12S would be lighter for the same setup, less current draw for the same power, and easier on the batts for the same power. I respect Chad's info here as I felt it would be better. having never tried it I don't know. I fly F3A and in F3A the limits are defined for me 10S is it. Chad has been doing it for a long time....As it is now...if the 12S setups don't make the thing work then again why the change in AMA..

The limit has what benefit in AMA?

This is NOT a hit on Electric vs glow....Its a question why AMA Pattern would take the position of limiting the options in E-Power for the AMA classes? Where is the benefit and what are they trying to solve?

My models were 4948g dry on the one I flew all week. The other one was 4974g but it had a broken wing that was repaired when the bozos tried to steal it from my car. Again both legal in the F3A rules...and the Euphoria is a big model compared to the Integral. The very nature of the Bipe is big Volume in the sky.

My weight comment was comparing two similar models....10.5lbs is a good weight for an electric model. What does a glow powered Integral weigh...10lbs even. So my point was on average electric adds about 8oz to a glow setup same airframe that is. Right? My electric Pinnacle was 10.5lbs and a glow version was just a little over 10lbs. Same airframe, same equipment save the power system and fuel source.

Wet weight has nothing to do with the issue...I get to weigh my plane with the fuel tank dry. You poor E guys are at such a disadvantage that you have been kicking my butt for years.

Noted that we are only using about 12-14oz anyways with the new motor. So the wet weight difference is much less. We are caring only about 60% of the fuel we had last year.I want to stay on topic here.

I'm not endorsing the rule changes and I'm not saying they were poor changes...just asking why the double take?

I guess my question boils down to this.....IF AMA pattern wants to keep its identity by keeping its own top class (separate but equal) Realize we are already there dealing with a schedule that is in reality very close to skill level with the Prelim F3A patterns. This is the separate but equal mentality to also include separate judging criteria and concerns?. Why would they pass rule changes that bring them lock step in with F3A rules and specs for model requirements when there was no real need for it?

The sound rule was a prime example...it has nothing to do with E vs Glow.

The follow up question is if AMA pattern is going to blend with F3A as it appears to be doing this by taking on the same specs and limitations what is wrong with the current P-09 and P-11 sequences? The models are trickling from the top down anyway.

I'm not asking to fix Masters. My point is why is F3A the standard to align with- until it comes to flying the same single Prelim pattern at local events? I agree that the Finals and Unknowns are not going to be good for Masters. But the prelim sequence is already on a par....

I will be there to support pattern no matter what the decision.

Tony you and I are on the same page as to where a problem exists. This thread was not really about that problem of new blood.

Flying P-09 as a Masters sequence would help a problem (Not solve it) of inconsistent judging issues, lighten the load on judge training, lighten workload for the judges themselves, and help judge fatigue issues. The idea was not intended to be a solution for patterns lack of new blood.


Tony, Chad and others You know as well as I do we learn from watching those that are doing it better than we are.

I used the electric 12S situation as an example to illustrate my question and query...

Hey Tony you going to go to any contests this fall? I would like to fly with you again. We did have fun and I know I benefited in a huge way from our time together. I think you would like the Euphoria you have a free ride coming for sure when we meet up again. I'm serious man its a Partner with the huge knife edge and turn ability of a Bipe. Snaps, rollers. I know you will like it.

Troy