Very elloquent discertation edh13, exactly what I meant earlier when I mentioned inertia and gravity. But I think I'm done wasting my time with this discussion. I fly full scale and models, and I have no problem understanding what you explained above. To each his own. My hat is tipped to those who seem to have more full scale experience than I, but I don't think I would ever let cfircav8r make a turn downwind with one of my models!