Span vs area
11-27-2003 | 05:21 AM
#26
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From: Holts Summit, MO
RE: Span vs area
Mitek,
Sorry the link is not quit right. Go to the link, on the left there is a "aerodynamics" button select this...then select "Velocity Distributions" on this page...the pictures are at the bottom.
Sorry the link is not quit right. Go to the link, on the left there is a "aerodynamics" button select this...then select "Velocity Distributions" on this page...the pictures are at the bottom.
11-27-2003 | 05:22 PM
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From: Holts Summit, MO
RE: Span vs area
Mitek,
These are pictures showing the pressure distrubution around the foil. The green is lower pressure the red is higher pressure. When a boundary layer seperates it causes the pressure difference between the lower and the up surface to equalize...just like a cylinder that is not spinning...so the lift is reduced. No pressure differance NO LIFT. The higher the pressure difference the greater the lift. At the leading edge of the foil there is a stagnation area were the air doesn't know wether to go above the wing or below so it kind stops and spins....this is frontal area drag or a type of parasitic drag. One set of pictures is showing the flow of air the other is showing the pressure that is being created because of air flow. Kind of like looking at the two sides of a coin. The way the air flows over a wing is only important because it creates pressure differences. Without the pressure differences there is no lift no matter what the shape.
Steve
These are pictures showing the pressure distrubution around the foil. The green is lower pressure the red is higher pressure. When a boundary layer seperates it causes the pressure difference between the lower and the up surface to equalize...just like a cylinder that is not spinning...so the lift is reduced. No pressure differance NO LIFT. The higher the pressure difference the greater the lift. At the leading edge of the foil there is a stagnation area were the air doesn't know wether to go above the wing or below so it kind stops and spins....this is frontal area drag or a type of parasitic drag. One set of pictures is showing the flow of air the other is showing the pressure that is being created because of air flow. Kind of like looking at the two sides of a coin. The way the air flows over a wing is only important because it creates pressure differences. Without the pressure differences there is no lift no matter what the shape.
Steve
11-28-2003 | 12:56 AM
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From: Sacramento, CA
RE: Span vs area
Just wondering, does the built in angle of attack of a flat-bottom airfoil have any effect on the angle at which the airfoil stalls? It should reduce it, I think
And has the spinning cyllinder ever been put to the test in a prototype aircraft?
Thanks for all your responses
And has the spinning cyllinder ever been put to the test in a prototype aircraft?
Thanks for all your responses
11-28-2003 | 12:28 PM
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From: Holts Summit, MO
RE: Span vs area
Mitek,
All foils stall at around an absolute AOA of around 19 degrees. See the link go down to 2.14 Absolute versue Geometric AOA.
[link]http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/aoa.html[/link]
I think there have been some experemental rotor planes built.
Steve
All foils stall at around an absolute AOA of around 19 degrees. See the link go down to 2.14 Absolute versue Geometric AOA.
[link]http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/aoa.html[/link]
I think there have been some experemental rotor planes built.
Steve
11-28-2003 | 01:39 PM
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RE: Span vs area
I dont understand the concept of k, beacuse to me, the x intercept is when y or lift =0 and in the case of flat-bottom airfoils, the geometric angle of attack would have to be negative to achieve 0 lift, which means k is negatice, which doessn't make sense. I'm lost. help![&o]
P.S. what happen to all the other people on this forum?
P.S. what happen to all the other people on this forum?
11-28-2003 | 01:56 PM
#32
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RE: Span vs area
I'm still listening.
I don't think it is accurate to say that all airfoils stall more or less at the same angle of attack.
That may be the case (or may not, I don't know) for a 2D flow, but not with a real wing.
Review the first group of replies in the thread. There are comments about aspect ratio and its impact on the CL versus AoA curve. Higher aspect ratio wings reach peak CL before low aspect ratio wings. This means, they stall at a lower angle of attack.
This the reason why, for example, a delta wing (low aspect ratio) plane can land at a a very high AoA, but a high aspect ratio glider cannot without stalling.
It is not difficult to visual why this is so. Just imagine, or draw, the flow that results from tip vortices and add this to the flow component due to forward motion of the aircraft. The effect of the downward component of the vortex is such that the AoA of the wing is reduced. Hence, we have delayed onset of stall relative to a high aspect wing. Pictures and diagrams are far more useful that word waving when trying to describe this.
I don't think it is accurate to say that all airfoils stall more or less at the same angle of attack.
That may be the case (or may not, I don't know) for a 2D flow, but not with a real wing.
Review the first group of replies in the thread. There are comments about aspect ratio and its impact on the CL versus AoA curve. Higher aspect ratio wings reach peak CL before low aspect ratio wings. This means, they stall at a lower angle of attack.
This the reason why, for example, a delta wing (low aspect ratio) plane can land at a a very high AoA, but a high aspect ratio glider cannot without stalling.
It is not difficult to visual why this is so. Just imagine, or draw, the flow that results from tip vortices and add this to the flow component due to forward motion of the aircraft. The effect of the downward component of the vortex is such that the AoA of the wing is reduced. Hence, we have delayed onset of stall relative to a high aspect wing. Pictures and diagrams are far more useful that word waving when trying to describe this.
12-10-2003 | 02:34 AM
#35
RE: Span vs area
To just toss in a few things here....
The effect of the air passing by a spinning cylinder is, I believe, called the Coanda effect, named after the fellow that discovered it.
And flat bottomed airfoils are just a freak coincidence. If you search around here you'll find lot's written about the subject. Basically there are two types of airfoils, symetrical and cambered. With symetrical being just a special case of the camber being 0%.
But all cambered airfoils, be they flat bottomed, "semi symetrical" or undercambered all share the same charactaristic that they will generate lift at a 0* angle of attack. This is because the camber curve redirects the airflow and produces lift. When you start working with cambered airfoils you bring another term into the discussion, the zero lift angle. This is the negative angle at which the airfoil produces no lift.
The effect of the air passing by a spinning cylinder is, I believe, called the Coanda effect, named after the fellow that discovered it.
And flat bottomed airfoils are just a freak coincidence. If you search around here you'll find lot's written about the subject. Basically there are two types of airfoils, symetrical and cambered. With symetrical being just a special case of the camber being 0%.
But all cambered airfoils, be they flat bottomed, "semi symetrical" or undercambered all share the same charactaristic that they will generate lift at a 0* angle of attack. This is because the camber curve redirects the airflow and produces lift. When you start working with cambered airfoils you bring another term into the discussion, the zero lift angle. This is the negative angle at which the airfoil produces no lift.
12-10-2003 | 09:39 AM
#36
RE: Span vs area
What was the original question?
I reread it and it looks like a few questions combined.
My thoughts on why things fly are looked at as totally wrong by a few of the number happy guys but IF the original question was "is span related to stall speed?"
the answer is -YES
Why?
Everything is related to the stall speed.
Size
Shape
Speed
In doing aerobatic designs - we found that you had to first determine IF you wanted a good fast abrupt stall --or simply an incredible fast braking mush that has no real pinpointed stall.
The single most important factors we found were these:
the aspect ratio
The fineness ratio.
The straight long wing - stalls ,breaks cleanly
The round disc (lowest practical aspect ratio)- simply moves the air outbound and the angle of attack can go to a impossible (or so it seems) angle- the stall simply does not show up.
The airfoils involved- really are not important -except they need to be stiff (will not twist under load).
the thinnest are the best -if the loading is low enough .
how thin?
our current stuff is 2.5%
To clarify --the chord is 10" the thickness is .250
I don't know how the numbers you guys use apply to all this.
If one is not involved in a hands on application of these super light overpowered model aerobats - then what I have just said probably makes no sense.
PS- I just realized that the original question may have been about avoiding stalls!
I am interested in setups which stalls on command -then is controllable whilst stalled - and the stall is easily and quickly reverted to non stalled flight.
I reread it and it looks like a few questions combined.
My thoughts on why things fly are looked at as totally wrong by a few of the number happy guys but IF the original question was "is span related to stall speed?"
the answer is -YES
Why?
Everything is related to the stall speed.
Size
Shape
Speed
In doing aerobatic designs - we found that you had to first determine IF you wanted a good fast abrupt stall --or simply an incredible fast braking mush that has no real pinpointed stall.
The single most important factors we found were these:
the aspect ratio
The fineness ratio.
The straight long wing - stalls ,breaks cleanly
The round disc (lowest practical aspect ratio)- simply moves the air outbound and the angle of attack can go to a impossible (or so it seems) angle- the stall simply does not show up.
The airfoils involved- really are not important -except they need to be stiff (will not twist under load).
the thinnest are the best -if the loading is low enough .
how thin?
our current stuff is 2.5%
To clarify --the chord is 10" the thickness is .250
I don't know how the numbers you guys use apply to all this.
If one is not involved in a hands on application of these super light overpowered model aerobats - then what I have just said probably makes no sense.
PS- I just realized that the original question may have been about avoiding stalls!
I am interested in setups which stalls on command -then is controllable whilst stalled - and the stall is easily and quickly reverted to non stalled flight.
12-10-2003 | 03:48 PM
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RE: Span vs area
ORIGINAL: dick Hanson
What was the original question?
I reread it and it looks like a few questions combined.
My thoughts on why things fly are looked at as totally wrong by a few of the number happy guys but IF the original question was "is span related to stall speed?"
the answer is -YES
Why?
Everything is related to the stall speed.
Size
Shape
Speed
In doing aerobatic designs - we found that you had to first determine IF you wanted a good fast abrupt stall --or simply an incredible fast braking mush that has no real pinpointed stall.
The single most important factors we found were these:
the aspect ratio
The fineness ratio.
The straight long wing - stalls ,breaks cleanly
The round disc (lowest practical aspect ratio)- simply moves the air outbound and the angle of attack can go to a impossible (or so it seems) angle- the stall simply does not show up.
The airfoils involved- really are not important -except they need to be stiff (will not twist under load).
the thinnest are the best -if the loading is low enough .
how thin?
our current stuff is 2.5%
To clarify --the chord is 10" the thickness is .250
I don't know how the numbers you guys use apply to all this.
If one is not involved in a hands on application of these super light overpowered model aerobats - then what I have just said probably makes no sense.
PS- I just realized that the original question may have been about avoiding stalls!
I am interested in setups which stalls on command -then is controllable whilst stalled - and the stall is easily and quickly reverted to non stalled flight.
What was the original question?
I reread it and it looks like a few questions combined.
My thoughts on why things fly are looked at as totally wrong by a few of the number happy guys but IF the original question was "is span related to stall speed?"
the answer is -YES
Why?
Everything is related to the stall speed.
Size
Shape
Speed
In doing aerobatic designs - we found that you had to first determine IF you wanted a good fast abrupt stall --or simply an incredible fast braking mush that has no real pinpointed stall.
The single most important factors we found were these:
the aspect ratio
The fineness ratio.
The straight long wing - stalls ,breaks cleanly
The round disc (lowest practical aspect ratio)- simply moves the air outbound and the angle of attack can go to a impossible (or so it seems) angle- the stall simply does not show up.
The airfoils involved- really are not important -except they need to be stiff (will not twist under load).
the thinnest are the best -if the loading is low enough .
how thin?
our current stuff is 2.5%
To clarify --the chord is 10" the thickness is .250
I don't know how the numbers you guys use apply to all this.
If one is not involved in a hands on application of these super light overpowered model aerobats - then what I have just said probably makes no sense.
PS- I just realized that the original question may have been about avoiding stalls!
I am interested in setups which stalls on command -then is controllable whilst stalled - and the stall is easily and quickly reverted to non stalled flight.
12-10-2003 | 05:30 PM
#38
RE: Span vs area
Strange - on our models - we see it as pretty interrelated -which is what I was trying to explain.
The aspect ratio- really changes the direction of airfow at higher AOA. (spanflow)
so the stall CHARACTER changes -
I don't know zip about the text book explanation - never claimed to - but this relationship does show up on the models
Are they extreme cases?
Most of my "air knowledge"- was developed using models --except for low/medium pressure machine control systems -of which I developed a number of patented systems - using the anlog/digital systems - these were done almost 40 years ago -and and were still produced till a few years ago .
The aspect ratio- really changes the direction of airfow at higher AOA. (spanflow)
so the stall CHARACTER changes -
I don't know zip about the text book explanation - never claimed to - but this relationship does show up on the models
Are they extreme cases?
Most of my "air knowledge"- was developed using models --except for low/medium pressure machine control systems -of which I developed a number of patented systems - using the anlog/digital systems - these were done almost 40 years ago -and and were still produced till a few years ago .
12-11-2003 | 12:06 AM
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From: Bloomington, MN,
RE: Span vs area
ORIGINAL: dick Hanson
Strange - on our models - we see it as pretty interrelated -which is what I was trying to explain.
The aspect ratio- really changes the direction of airfow at higher AOA. (spanflow)
so the stall CHARACTER changes -
I don't know zip about the text book explanation - never claimed to - but this relationship does show up on the models
Are they extreme cases?
Most of my "air knowledge"- was developed using models --except for low/medium pressure machine control systems -of which I developed a number of patented systems - using the anlog/digital systems - these were done almost 40 years ago -and and were still produced till a few years ago .
Strange - on our models - we see it as pretty interrelated -which is what I was trying to explain.
The aspect ratio- really changes the direction of airfow at higher AOA. (spanflow)
so the stall CHARACTER changes -
I don't know zip about the text book explanation - never claimed to - but this relationship does show up on the models
Are they extreme cases?
Most of my "air knowledge"- was developed using models --except for low/medium pressure machine control systems -of which I developed a number of patented systems - using the anlog/digital systems - these were done almost 40 years ago -and and were still produced till a few years ago .
12-11-2003 | 12:37 AM
#40
RE: Span vs area
Yup - I guess the latter is correct.
I had hoped there was some relevant info for extremely low loading stuf - but if you say there isn't - well - so be it.
Do you ever fly models?
If one works with aerobatic designs -- the stall character is VERY important.
as for "stall speed"
I can stall almost any aerobatic model at any speed - so I don't concern myself with "stall speeds" but rather - how the model acts under high G loads or rapid changes in AOA.
I thought this stuff was basic aerodynamics --
I had hoped there was some relevant info for extremely low loading stuf - but if you say there isn't - well - so be it.
Do you ever fly models?
If one works with aerobatic designs -- the stall character is VERY important.
as for "stall speed"
I can stall almost any aerobatic model at any speed - so I don't concern myself with "stall speeds" but rather - how the model acts under high G loads or rapid changes in AOA.
I thought this stuff was basic aerodynamics --
12-11-2003 | 10:22 AM
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From: Bloomington, MN,
RE: Span vs area
ORIGINAL: dick Hanson
Yup - I guess the latter is correct.
I had hoped there was some relevant info for extremely low loading stuf - but if you say there isn't - well - so be it.
Do you ever fly models?
If one works with aerobatic designs -- the stall character is VERY important.
as for "stall speed"
I can stall almost any aerobatic model at any speed - so I don't concern myself with "stall speeds" but rather - how the model acts under high G loads or rapid changes in AOA.
I thought this stuff was basic aerodynamics --
Yup - I guess the latter is correct.
I had hoped there was some relevant info for extremely low loading stuf - but if you say there isn't - well - so be it.
Do you ever fly models?
If one works with aerobatic designs -- the stall character is VERY important.
as for "stall speed"
I can stall almost any aerobatic model at any speed - so I don't concern myself with "stall speeds" but rather - how the model acts under high G loads or rapid changes in AOA.
I thought this stuff was basic aerodynamics --
12-11-2003 | 12:35 PM
#42
RE: Span vs area
I never intend to provide incorrect info -just offer comments that are not simply pat. and while we are on that subject -
what airfoil would be superior to the flat plate on these planes?
Do you have any data on the flat plate foils on very small light models?
Other accredited aero engineers I know - feel it is a perfectly good shape.
My philosophy may be absurd to you but in actual practice - we find it works quite well.
As for nonsense - I also take exception to answers which are long winded formulas that obfuscate the answer.
This is a model furum-- and tho technical jargon is fine between those who work with it on a daily basis - I see little or no need for it to answer 99% of the questions put forth.--in this forum
Maybe you feel it is necessary -- but having had to convert "jargon " into courtroom language-understandable to all - I see it as a disservice to many.
I don't expect you to agree - just give it some consideration.
what airfoil would be superior to the flat plate on these planes?
Do you have any data on the flat plate foils on very small light models?
Other accredited aero engineers I know - feel it is a perfectly good shape.
My philosophy may be absurd to you but in actual practice - we find it works quite well.
As for nonsense - I also take exception to answers which are long winded formulas that obfuscate the answer.
This is a model furum-- and tho technical jargon is fine between those who work with it on a daily basis - I see little or no need for it to answer 99% of the questions put forth.--in this forum
Maybe you feel it is necessary -- but having had to convert "jargon " into courtroom language-understandable to all - I see it as a disservice to many.
I don't expect you to agree - just give it some consideration.
12-12-2003 | 11:43 AM
#43
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From: Holts Summit, MO
RE: Span vs area
Mitek,
Were quickly approaching the 100 aniversery of the Wright Brothers first flight. The main reason that the Wright Brothers suceeded where others failed was because they payed very close attention to MATH "jargon" and systematic application of science. By testing, measureing, and calculating they did what many thought was impossible or just crazy. The first thing you need, you have, a passion for understanding why? Now all you need is to develop your math ablity and knowledge of physics and the whole world will open up to you. I'm sorry if any of my answers "obfuscated" your question...(for those of us wanting to speak more simply.... "cunfused" you)...but I was trying to point you in the right direction so you could come to a deeper understanding of why and give you some tools to look at the why yourself. Your questions lead me to beleive that you have some ability in math... an would have fun applying some simple formulas to get a better understanding of aerodynamics.
>>>>Good luck on your persuit of understanding>>>>
P.S. "I am dyslixic (sp) and also have trouble spelling but don't let that keep you from persuing higher education....it might be tough... but well worth the effort...not everything can be simple."
Steve
Were quickly approaching the 100 aniversery of the Wright Brothers first flight. The main reason that the Wright Brothers suceeded where others failed was because they payed very close attention to MATH "jargon" and systematic application of science. By testing, measureing, and calculating they did what many thought was impossible or just crazy. The first thing you need, you have, a passion for understanding why? Now all you need is to develop your math ablity and knowledge of physics and the whole world will open up to you. I'm sorry if any of my answers "obfuscated" your question...(for those of us wanting to speak more simply.... "cunfused" you)...but I was trying to point you in the right direction so you could come to a deeper understanding of why and give you some tools to look at the why yourself. Your questions lead me to beleive that you have some ability in math... an would have fun applying some simple formulas to get a better understanding of aerodynamics.
>>>>Good luck on your persuit of understanding>>>>
P.S. "I am dyslixic (sp) and also have trouble spelling but don't let that keep you from persuing higher education....it might be tough... but well worth the effort...not everything can be simple."
Steve
12-14-2003 | 08:53 PM
#44
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RE: Span vs area
The heavy mathematical aspect made it all the more fun. It let me use of that theoretical stuff they pound into our heads in Math classes actually be used for something that is practical. Math is nothing without applications. Besides, being the nerd that I am (freshman in Highschool and i'm in precalculus) I love all these equations.
I, at the beggining have had absolutel 0 (zip) aerodynamical knowledge, but thorugh the generous help of all you guys, I have gained a lot of knowledge, and I feel that this forum will be a great tutorial about aerodynamics for anyone. It did get confusing for me some times, but if you focus, have a scratch pad handy, after a while you will shout "Eureka". I think this is worth the effort, because understanding how our models fly will help us fly them better.
Thanks again for the contributions here.
Lets get some more questions and discussions here. We certainly all have the brainpower and flying experience to answer them all[sm=thumbup.gif]
Mitek
P.S. I Do not wear thick glasses.
P.S. #2I Am an anlien (not with antennas, but from out of the country) so I apoligize in advance for any language mistakes.
I, at the beggining have had absolutel 0 (zip) aerodynamical knowledge, but thorugh the generous help of all you guys, I have gained a lot of knowledge, and I feel that this forum will be a great tutorial about aerodynamics for anyone. It did get confusing for me some times, but if you focus, have a scratch pad handy, after a while you will shout "Eureka". I think this is worth the effort, because understanding how our models fly will help us fly them better.
Thanks again for the contributions here.
Lets get some more questions and discussions here. We certainly all have the brainpower and flying experience to answer them all[sm=thumbup.gif]
Mitek
P.S. I Do not wear thick glasses.
P.S. #2I Am an anlien (not with antennas, but from out of the country) so I apoligize in advance for any language mistakes.
12-15-2003 | 12:03 AM
#45
RE: Span vs area
I don't expect to convert anyone about their preferrences.
Math is anextremely helpful TOOL.
Now here comes the BUT.
Back in the 1960's a series of events, changed my outlook on jargon and formulas -for explaining technical information.
It started with a patent I was filing.
The Patent Attorney was really sharp.
He had a system for breaking down the required information into building blocks
I had to answer each block of information into clear and understandable english.
Then I had to show interrelationship and application of each block of information .
I asked , when we competed the patent information - If this approach worked with other types of patents.
The answer was -yes.
It wasn't long after that - I was asked to work as technical expert on some legal questions -involving accidents . I did this professionally for a number of years .
In these cases - I was requirred to make the most technical parts of the matter , understandable to any lay person.
It can be done.
This stuff may include rocket science - but you do not have to be a rocket scientist to understand the concepts.
So when I note that I think that the jargon and graphs are unnecessary--inTHIS forum -it is because I honestly think it can be presented in a more simple manner .
Some will never believe or agree to this approach - so be it .
As for enjoying working with math - nope not really - - I use it as needed -that's it .
Math is anextremely helpful TOOL.
Now here comes the BUT.
Back in the 1960's a series of events, changed my outlook on jargon and formulas -for explaining technical information.
It started with a patent I was filing.
The Patent Attorney was really sharp.
He had a system for breaking down the required information into building blocks
I had to answer each block of information into clear and understandable english.
Then I had to show interrelationship and application of each block of information .
I asked , when we competed the patent information - If this approach worked with other types of patents.
The answer was -yes.
It wasn't long after that - I was asked to work as technical expert on some legal questions -involving accidents . I did this professionally for a number of years .
In these cases - I was requirred to make the most technical parts of the matter , understandable to any lay person.
It can be done.
This stuff may include rocket science - but you do not have to be a rocket scientist to understand the concepts.
So when I note that I think that the jargon and graphs are unnecessary--inTHIS forum -it is because I honestly think it can be presented in a more simple manner .
Some will never believe or agree to this approach - so be it .
As for enjoying working with math - nope not really - - I use it as needed -that's it .
12-15-2003 | 10:32 PM
#46
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RE: Span vs area
I agree, and I think our preference about using complex terms is mostly based on our background.
To expand on thethe question of A/r vs stall speed, and concerning lift
How does having two wings change the situation?
To expand on thethe question of A/r vs stall speed, and concerning lift
How does having two wings change the situation?
12-15-2003 | 11:50 PM
#47
RE: Span vs area
Do you mean a biplane vs a monoplane?
If so, then the answer is easy
and it is based on power needed to do the job.
two larger wing panels has alwas been more efficient than four, smaller panels.
the SWAG I use is -75%
Also -if you ever had a big competition bipe that had to be assembled every time you go to fly - you would opt for th monoplane next time.
If so, then the answer is easy
and it is based on power needed to do the job.
two larger wing panels has alwas been more efficient than four, smaller panels.
the SWAG I use is -75%
Also -if you ever had a big competition bipe that had to be assembled every time you go to fly - you would opt for th monoplane next time.
12-15-2003 | 11:58 PM
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RE: Span vs area
ORIGINAL: Mitek
I agree, and I think our preference about using complex terms is mostly based on our background.
To expand on thethe question of A/r vs stall speed, and concerning lift
How does having two wings change the situation?
I agree, and I think our preference about using complex terms is mostly based on our background.
To expand on thethe question of A/r vs stall speed, and concerning lift
How does having two wings change the situation?
No, I don't believe that the stall speed of biplanes is any more dependent on A/R than that of monoplanes.
banktoturn
12-16-2003 | 08:42 AM
#50
RE: Span vs area
I gave you a bad answer - -actually right answer -wrong question .
I was looking at characteristics of a biplane vs a monoplane.
Bipes are not as efficient as a monoplane -tho they really do some aerobatic stuff extremely well - due to the compact nature of a bipe.
a SWAG?
old engineering term
a scientific wild assed guess.
(derived from formula but not proven in actual practice)
I was looking at characteristics of a biplane vs a monoplane.
Bipes are not as efficient as a monoplane -tho they really do some aerobatic stuff extremely well - due to the compact nature of a bipe.
a SWAG?
old engineering term
a scientific wild assed guess.
(derived from formula but not proven in actual practice)
