FAA question RE: IFR FLIGHT
05-06-2005, 12:50 PM
#1
FAA question RE: IFR FLIGHT
Any one know for sure, not a guess on the legality of this issue?
I have a friend, comm pilot. She has a private pilot that is arguing to get her to ride as a safety pilot, on an IFR flight, both in and out of the clouds. She is not a CFI. He is not instrument rated.
I don't know why she hasn't just told him to go to heck, but he is saying that the instuctors told her it was legal and he is persistant.
I have been a CFI and II for years, and have always been under the understanding that he can not manipulate the controls on an IFR flight plan unless he is with a CFII or has an IFR licence period. He could do it in and out of clouds if he were with an instrument instructor, but not just another pilot.
Don't worry about the issue of weather it is safe or not, because I have told her time and time again its just a dumb thing to do and not smart period. We all will agree that. I think she is looking for me to just tell her flat out it is illegal, which I have, but I want some feedback on it to make sure I didn't miss something. Anyone got anything hard fact I can use?
I think the way I put it was "do you really want to be in the clouds with a pilot you know is not licenced, and may not be capable of handling the situation, but will probably not give you the controls of the airplane when he gets in too deep and looses control?"
I have a friend, comm pilot. She has a private pilot that is arguing to get her to ride as a safety pilot, on an IFR flight, both in and out of the clouds. She is not a CFI. He is not instrument rated.
I don't know why she hasn't just told him to go to heck, but he is saying that the instuctors told her it was legal and he is persistant.
I have been a CFI and II for years, and have always been under the understanding that he can not manipulate the controls on an IFR flight plan unless he is with a CFII or has an IFR licence period. He could do it in and out of clouds if he were with an instrument instructor, but not just another pilot.
Don't worry about the issue of weather it is safe or not, because I have told her time and time again its just a dumb thing to do and not smart period. We all will agree that. I think she is looking for me to just tell her flat out it is illegal, which I have, but I want some feedback on it to make sure I didn't miss something. Anyone got anything hard fact I can use?
I think the way I put it was "do you really want to be in the clouds with a pilot you know is not licenced, and may not be capable of handling the situation, but will probably not give you the controls of the airplane when he gets in too deep and looses control?"
05-06-2005, 12:59 PM
#2
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RE: FAA question IFR FLIGHT
Flyboy---IT IS ILLEGAL!!! Besides that-- ATTEMPTED SUICIDE!! Remind her of what happened to John Kennedy Jr.!! He thought he could get away with OVER WATER AT NIGHT! 1000% IFR! Lee Robinson, ex-dealer, FBO, PT-135 opr. CFI. Please show this to her!
05-06-2005, 03:26 PM
#4
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RE: FAA question IFR FLIGHT
You guys have NO IDEA how mad I am now; after writing a very detailed post I was kicked off RCU when I hit the submit button!!!! [:@][:@][:@] I'll try to write everything out as well as I did the first time.
Basically, I could not find any regulations specifically prohibiting this activity. FAR 1.1 does not require the Pilot in Command to be the sole manipulator of the flight controls. Additionally, a search through 61 and 91 revealed no regulation stipulating that a non-pilot may not manipulate the flight controls, even when an instructor is not present. Therefore, we can assume that a passenger on a part 91 is allowed to manipulate the flight controls as long as the PIC allows it. Additionally, I could not find a reg requiring the PIC to occupy the left seat of the aircraft, so therefore we can assume that a passenger may occupy the left seat. Putting these together, if your friend is the designated PIC for the flight, she may allow her passenger to manipulate the flight controls while sitting in the left seat while in the clouds. While the aircraft is VMC, her passenger (if he is manipulating the controls) may log the time as PIC since he is rated in the aircraft and no instructor is required for that portion of flight. If the man wants to fly around in VMC conditions while under the hood to simulate IMC conditions, then may do so and log all of it as PIC time, and will need a safety pilot with him that has at least a private pilot certificate and appropriate ratings for the aircraft being flown.
If the man wishes to log the flight time while IMC, he needs to have a CFI with him. A CFII is only required if he is receiving training to be counted toward an instrument rating. In either case he would be allowed to log the IMC time as PIC, since he is rated in the category and class of the aircraft he is flying.
As established, going into actual IMC in this situation isn't the best idea. However, browsing through the regs, I could not find anything specifically prohibiting this activity. If someone finds a reg prohibiting a passenger from manipulating the flight controls while part 91 then my points are no longer valid.
Ref:
FAR 1.1
FAR 61.51
FAR 91.109
Basically, I could not find any regulations specifically prohibiting this activity. FAR 1.1 does not require the Pilot in Command to be the sole manipulator of the flight controls. Additionally, a search through 61 and 91 revealed no regulation stipulating that a non-pilot may not manipulate the flight controls, even when an instructor is not present. Therefore, we can assume that a passenger on a part 91 is allowed to manipulate the flight controls as long as the PIC allows it. Additionally, I could not find a reg requiring the PIC to occupy the left seat of the aircraft, so therefore we can assume that a passenger may occupy the left seat. Putting these together, if your friend is the designated PIC for the flight, she may allow her passenger to manipulate the flight controls while sitting in the left seat while in the clouds. While the aircraft is VMC, her passenger (if he is manipulating the controls) may log the time as PIC since he is rated in the aircraft and no instructor is required for that portion of flight. If the man wants to fly around in VMC conditions while under the hood to simulate IMC conditions, then may do so and log all of it as PIC time, and will need a safety pilot with him that has at least a private pilot certificate and appropriate ratings for the aircraft being flown.
If the man wishes to log the flight time while IMC, he needs to have a CFI with him. A CFII is only required if he is receiving training to be counted toward an instrument rating. In either case he would be allowed to log the IMC time as PIC, since he is rated in the category and class of the aircraft he is flying.
As established, going into actual IMC in this situation isn't the best idea. However, browsing through the regs, I could not find anything specifically prohibiting this activity. If someone finds a reg prohibiting a passenger from manipulating the flight controls while part 91 then my points are no longer valid.
Ref:
FAR 1.1
FAR 61.51
FAR 91.109
05-06-2005, 04:06 PM
#5
RE: FAA question IFR FLIGHT
Thanks guys. I did some more research too as did she. Came up with the same thing. He can't file it, she would have to. She would be totally responcible for anything that happened, and he could fly it, but not log it.
Either way, we decided that it was really a dumb idea, just like I said to her before I said anything else.
I also feel that the CFI that put him up to this should have his licence taken away for even bringing it up. The guy has no instrument time or cloud time. May not be totally illegal, but it is totally stupid on his part.
Thanks guys. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't telling her the wrong answer.
Either way, we decided that it was really a dumb idea, just like I said to her before I said anything else.
I also feel that the CFI that put him up to this should have his licence taken away for even bringing it up. The guy has no instrument time or cloud time. May not be totally illegal, but it is totally stupid on his part.
Thanks guys. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't telling her the wrong answer.
05-06-2005, 08:25 PM
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RE: FAA question IFR FLIGHT
This is a sticky oneIMO. I'm a 20,000 hour pilot, COMM INST ATP Cert. # 1361669.
I'm ATP Rated on the B-707, 720, 727, 747, 757, 767, and L-1011. I retired TWA as an L-1011 Capt. in 1987 when "Uncle Carl" took over TWA and killed it. I took as job as an FAA Inspector GS 13 at the NY FSDO in Valley Stream NY.
It's been so long, I can't give a positive answer. The local FAA office can, I'm sure, so check with them. Polling other pilots is interesting and easy, but not difinitive.
Ed Toner.
I'm ATP Rated on the B-707, 720, 727, 747, 757, 767, and L-1011. I retired TWA as an L-1011 Capt. in 1987 when "Uncle Carl" took over TWA and killed it. I took as job as an FAA Inspector GS 13 at the NY FSDO in Valley Stream NY.
It's been so long, I can't give a positive answer. The local FAA office can, I'm sure, so check with them. Polling other pilots is interesting and easy, but not difinitive.
Ed Toner.
05-06-2005, 08:35 PM
#9
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RE: FAA question IFR FLIGHT
ORIGINAL: K.O.
Out of courisioty what does this all have to do with RC? You guys belong on AOPA or EAA or ??? websight
K.O.
Out of courisioty what does this all have to do with RC? You guys belong on AOPA or EAA or ??? websight
K.O.
05-07-2005, 01:41 AM
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RE: FAA question IFR FLIGHT
ORIGINAL: FLYBOY
Thanks guys. I did some more research too as did she. Came up with the same thing. He can't file it, she would have to. She would be totally responcible for anything that happened, and he could fly it, but not log it.
Either way, we decided that it was really a dumb idea, just like I said to her before I said anything else.
I also feel that the CFI that put him up to this should have his licence taken away for even bringing it up. The guy has no instrument time or cloud time. May not be totally illegal, but it is totally stupid on his part.
Thanks guys. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't telling her the wrong answer.
Thanks guys. I did some more research too as did she. Came up with the same thing. He can't file it, she would have to. She would be totally responcible for anything that happened, and he could fly it, but not log it.
Either way, we decided that it was really a dumb idea, just like I said to her before I said anything else.
I also feel that the CFI that put him up to this should have his licence taken away for even bringing it up. The guy has no instrument time or cloud time. May not be totally illegal, but it is totally stupid on his part.
Thanks guys. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't telling her the wrong answer.
A current and qualified instrument rated pilot can file the IFR flight plan, and is pilot in command for the flight...
Unlike FAR 121, there are no Part 91 or 61 restrictions as to who may manipualate the controls on this flight, so it would be legal, but she is betting her certifcate, not to mention the safety of the flight, on the newbie's skill and her ability to ensure control of the aircraft and ATC compliance.
IMO, this idea is just south of carrying a lighted highway flare into a fireworks factory.
Cheers!
Jim
15 years Gold Seal CFI, CFII, ATP, FAA Check Airman MD80
05-07-2005, 02:10 PM
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RE: FAA question IFR FLIGHT
ORIGINAL: Flyfalcons
Nothing really, that's why we are in the Full Scale forum.
ORIGINAL: K.O.
Out of courisioty what does this all have to do with RC? You guys belong on AOPA or EAA or ??? websight
K.O.
Out of courisioty what does this all have to do with RC? You guys belong on AOPA or EAA or ??? websight
K.O.
Bud
05-07-2005, 06:18 PM
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RE: FAA question IFR FLIGHT
Ain't she purty? I just finished my DPM super cub in the same color with sea commander floats and an O.S.160 twin. Maybe i'll just hang that rascal up 
Forgot to mention...likewise on yours, I love beavers!!
Forgot to mention...likewise on yours, I love beavers!!
05-07-2005, 06:33 PM
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RE: FAA question IFR FLIGHT
FAA NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING (NPRM)
1000.A. No holder of an airman's certificate or person or persons acting
on the direction or suggestion or supervision of the holder of the
certificate(s) may try, or attempt to try or make or make attempt to try
to comprehend or understand any or all, in whole or in part of the
herein mentioned Federal Aviation Regulations, except as authorized by
the Administrator or an agent appointed by, or inspected by the
Administrator.
1000.B. If the airman, or group of associated airmen becomes aware of,
or realizes, or detects, or discovers or finds that he, or she, or they
are or have been beginning to understand the Federal Aviation
Regulations, they must immediately, within three (3) days notify, in
writing, the Administrator.
1000.C. Upon receipt of the above mentioned notice of impending
comprehension, the Administrator will immediately rewrite the Federal
Aviation Regulations in such a manner as to eliminate any further
comprehension hazards.
1000.D. The Administrator may, at his or her option, require the
offending airman, or airmen, to attend remedial instruction in Federal
Aviation Regulations until such time that the aiman is too confused to
be capable of understanding anything.
1000.A. No holder of an airman's certificate or person or persons acting
on the direction or suggestion or supervision of the holder of the
certificate(s) may try, or attempt to try or make or make attempt to try
to comprehend or understand any or all, in whole or in part of the
herein mentioned Federal Aviation Regulations, except as authorized by
the Administrator or an agent appointed by, or inspected by the
Administrator.
1000.B. If the airman, or group of associated airmen becomes aware of,
or realizes, or detects, or discovers or finds that he, or she, or they
are or have been beginning to understand the Federal Aviation
Regulations, they must immediately, within three (3) days notify, in
writing, the Administrator.
1000.C. Upon receipt of the above mentioned notice of impending
comprehension, the Administrator will immediately rewrite the Federal
Aviation Regulations in such a manner as to eliminate any further
comprehension hazards.
1000.D. The Administrator may, at his or her option, require the
offending airman, or airmen, to attend remedial instruction in Federal
Aviation Regulations until such time that the aiman is too confused to
be capable of understanding anything.
05-08-2005, 03:31 AM
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RE: FAA question IFR FLIGHT
ORIGINAL: Bud Faulkner
FAA NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING (NPRM)
1000.A. No holder of an airman's certificate or person or persons acting
on the direction or suggestion or supervision of the holder of the
certificate(s) may try, or attempt to try or make or make attempt to try
to comprehend or understand any or all, in whole or in part of the
herein mentioned Federal Aviation Regulations, except as authorized by
the Administrator or an agent appointed by, or inspected by the
Administrator.
1000.B. If the airman, or group of associated airmen becomes aware of,
or realizes, or detects, or discovers or finds that he, or she, or they
are or have been beginning to understand the Federal Aviation
Regulations, they must immediately, within three (3) days notify, in
writing, the Administrator.
1000.C. Upon receipt of the above mentioned notice of impending
comprehension, the Administrator will immediately rewrite the Federal
Aviation Regulations in such a manner as to eliminate any further
comprehension hazards.
1000.D. The Administrator may, at his or her option, require the
offending airman, or airmen, to attend remedial instruction in Federal
Aviation Regulations until such time that the aiman is too confused to
be capable of understanding anything.
FAA NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING (NPRM)
1000.A. No holder of an airman's certificate or person or persons acting
on the direction or suggestion or supervision of the holder of the
certificate(s) may try, or attempt to try or make or make attempt to try
to comprehend or understand any or all, in whole or in part of the
herein mentioned Federal Aviation Regulations, except as authorized by
the Administrator or an agent appointed by, or inspected by the
Administrator.
1000.B. If the airman, or group of associated airmen becomes aware of,
or realizes, or detects, or discovers or finds that he, or she, or they
are or have been beginning to understand the Federal Aviation
Regulations, they must immediately, within three (3) days notify, in
writing, the Administrator.
1000.C. Upon receipt of the above mentioned notice of impending
comprehension, the Administrator will immediately rewrite the Federal
Aviation Regulations in such a manner as to eliminate any further
comprehension hazards.
1000.D. The Administrator may, at his or her option, require the
offending airman, or airmen, to attend remedial instruction in Federal
Aviation Regulations until such time that the aiman is too confused to
be capable of understanding anything.
05-09-2005, 10:04 AM
#17
RE: FAA question IFR FLIGHT
Ryan, I don't know his motivation. She is being pressured into doing it, and he wants her to split the cost of the flight at that. (some motivation for him maybe). She didn't do it and said she would not in the future either. His instructor also helped him come up with this one cause he didn't want to be in the clouds with the guy, or so I am told. Seemed really odd to me. I wouldn't have touched it, or even considered it, and I have been teaching forever. People do dumb things.
We just had a crash here last week. Lady, from what I can gather, low time, been flying for many many years, filed IFR cause she had the ticket, took off, entered the clouds, came out the bottom in a spin a short time later, less than 10 miles from the airport, and made a fireball. Happens a lot. I mentioned that one to my friend to help her in her decision making. Not a good idea to be in the clouds when one is not ready to be in the clouds.
We just had a crash here last week. Lady, from what I can gather, low time, been flying for many many years, filed IFR cause she had the ticket, took off, entered the clouds, came out the bottom in a spin a short time later, less than 10 miles from the airport, and made a fireball. Happens a lot. I mentioned that one to my friend to help her in her decision making. Not a good idea to be in the clouds when one is not ready to be in the clouds.
05-11-2005, 01:19 AM
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RE: FAA question IFR FLIGHT
If she doesn't feel comfortable with this pilot doing this... why does she even need to know the legality of it? She would be the PIC, so what she says goes, end of story. If someone has a problem with it, let them go flying into cumulogranite with someone else. Period. Her decision is the real issue here.
