Hey guys, i'm way new to full scale but am really looking forward to getting into it... I will start on my ppl very soon, and just want to start dreaming up the first plane i want to buy. I seem to always be looking at a lot of the experimental aircraft, and I was just wondering if these are good first planes (depending on the airplane i'm sure) I'm interested in a 2 seater for sure, thats my only real requirement. I've heard of the long ez, the vans rv, and a couple others... I really no nothing right now, but would like some reccomendations on good 2 seater aircraft that are cheaper than 40,000 for sure. Just want to start doing some research, hear some opinions. thanks!

I have done a ton of research on this (sold my cessna 140 and want to build now) and the airplane I keep going back to is the zenith zodiac www.zenithair.com. Very easy to build from what I have seen and I can personally say they fly great since I test flew one that I almost bought. Another similar plane would be the new Thorp 210? or a number something like that or the pulsar 100 and pulsar xp. Depends on if you want an all metal or composite or tube and fabric airplane. My favorite cheap practical choices are as follows. The Zodiac is number one for ease of construction all metal durability and performance. The pulsar is second because it is all composite and a little more expensive but makes up for it with a cruise near 200mph. My third choice would be the whittman tailwind or nesmith cougar (practically the same plane) that is a tube and fabric job that cruises well and costs little. Have fun looking into them.

thanks thats great

anyone else?

Hey! funny i just noticed you're from omaha, I'm moving out there in august! what area are you from?

Erik, You can't go wrong with the RV series. For the money they are the best performing homebuilts on the market but you won't build one for $40,000. $50-70k is more realistic. I am going to order a RV7 quickbuild kit as soon as I sell my Yak. I have flown RV4, 6, 6A, 8 and 8A and all have been great airplanes. My friend built the 8A while he did his PPL. He had 60hrs tt when he finished the 8 and it only took about 5hrs to check him out in it. The Zodiac and the Thorp are also great choices but for a few more bucks you can have a 200+mph cruiser that is also aerobatic if you so desire. The Pulsar II is also a great performer but more like 150mph with a Rotax 912. Don

Check out the RV9. It is suited for low time pilots. For tons of info check out www.vansairforce.net

If your going to take the time to build an RV it takes the same amount of time to build a 7 or 8 as a 9. The 9 is a lot slower cruise and the 7 or 8 are just as docile. Don

cool thanks guys..... maybe i'll just save and get something nice then....... were most of your guys first planes something nice you saved for, or did you start with something cheap? just wondering... guess it depends on how much money you have..

I'm not really from here in Omaha, NE I am from TX but I moved here 6 months ago because I am in the airforce and I'm a navigator on the type planes we have here. Yes the RV's are great planes as well and I have flown the 8 and the 4 and I must say Way Cool. But most people I know that have built the 4/6/8 all spend well over 45 or 50k. You may build one for that from plans only but that would take forever or much longer than the planes I mentioned earlier and would probably involve a used engine or minimum VFR instruments. If I were really wanting something like the RV but not spend as much, just buy a Thorp T-18 (flown this one too) because you can get a really nice one for 40k (already built though). All planes that have been spoken of are great planes it will just depend on what you want out of it and how much you want to spend. If you haven't yet, look on barnstormers.com to get a feel for how much each one costs after they are built.
Lee

hey thanks! i think that thorp one really would be a good choice.... there was one on barnstormers when i checked right now for 35K and it actually looked really nice.... given i know nothing about avionics or engine time yet.... any tips there? what are some of the key indicators to look for when buying? engine time, overhauls etc? why are the thorps so much cheaper? the guy selling his said it was faster than an rv... it had a 180hp engine

Well the thorp is close to an RV in speed, it really does depend on which RV model it is and what engine is in each plane. One thing to check is damage history usually in the form of a 337 but that is for factory built planes and am not sure if they are really required if the builder damages his own plane and fixes it himself. Damage history can be over rated as well because if a plane is put back together with new parts and is aligned well it is really as good as new (my 140 was a case of this) but the paperwork makes it seem like junk. Time since overhaul or SMOH (Since Major OverHaul) depends on the engine. Not all engines have the same time before overhaul (TBO) limits. Most TBO's are around 2000 hours though and most people that fly for fun will fly 100hrs per year or less. With a lycoming or continental engine between 100 and 200hp a major overhaul will cost anywhere from 10 to 20k. I would highly recommend getting something that flies somewhat regularly because like a car the more an engine sits the more things go wrong with it.

thanks again, sounds like good advice to me

The Thorp T18 is a little hot for a low time pilot. It has an over the fence speed of 90-100mph as opposed to say an RV7 at 75-80mph. It is not as docile as the RVs and is a taildragger that will require a longer checkout period. The RVs can be built as tricycles and the speed difference between the tri gear and taildragger is negligable. The T18 is a great go fast airplane but does not have the docile handling of the RVs. Don

So how do i make my learning curve go up the fastest? fly slow planes alone for a long time, or get assistance in a faster plane till I feel good in it?

I forgot about the thorp being only tailwheel as tailwheel is just about all I have flown. Basically if you want a tailwheel airplane that is hot like the rv or thorp you would need to learn on something slower and easier first like a cessna 140, cub, champ, etc... . once you feel comfortable in one of those which shouldnt take all that long 5-10 hrs you can transition into the hotrod and pick it up fairly quickly. However if you feel you are the fast learner and very capable pilot you could start out with the rv or thorp but it wouldnt be the safest thing. Just remember that in WWII they were teaching in the stearman and that is considered by most a challenging airplane.
Lee

The cost to buy an airplane is only the tip of the iceberg. A hangar will rent for over $200 / month. Insurance for a low time pilot is expensive just like auto insurance for teenagers. Fuel is over $3.00 / gal. Maintenance @ $75/hour is cheap. Annual inspections - $1000.

If you were my Son, I would say get your license and rent your airplane time until you got maybe 300 hrs.

If you want to get into flying, start with a J3 Cub. Some may think that I am crazy in saying that, but it is a great airplane for the money. It will teach you all the basics of stick and rudder as well as power management and tailwheel flying. Tailwheel flying will make you a better pilot no matter what. A nice J3 can be had for under $40,000, it will run on MOGAS which saves a bundle and annuals are usually very cheap as well as routine maintenance. Insurance will be under $1000 a year, and you can hanger at a grass strip somewhere which is considerably cheaper than paved strips.

This is real flying, grass routes, stick and rudder flying. It will teach you flying lessons that you will never get in a flight school. You can get a cub with enough flight instruments to get your PVT rating in and you can always sell them for about what you paid for it as their values are not diminishing. Cub time will also help prepare you for the RV if that is a dream of yours.

Just my .02 worth.

-Low

BTW- This immaculate J3 cub just sold for $34K here in Memphis, TN. The white Supercub would go for double, or triple that amount.

yeah i love cubs! a friend of mine has a supercub, i've never been up in it, but he says its a blast.... I could live with a cub first for sure... what is the main challenge of the tailwheel? breaking? cross wind?

If you were my Son, I would say get your license and rent your airplane time until you got maybe 300 hrs...

Q: but isn't renting an airplane like throwing away money like renting an apartment, or are they more reasonable than that... what about buying a cub and getting my ppl in it? any thoughts there?

You probably won't even be able to buy insurance for the airplane without a license. If you rent you will have no expenses beyond the rent. No maint, no hangar, no annuals,no insurance. It's not wasted money.

Insurance for a student pilot is not impossible, just a little more costly until you get your ratings. If you get a good/well known instructor and provide the underwriter a plan of instruction, it will go a long way towards insurance consideration.

Renting an airplane is not wasted, but you never take ownership of the aircraft. You will still pay for the hanger, maintenance, annuals, and insurance...it is just in the form of an hourly rate with a little profit added in. Let's not forget that the flight school is in it to make money, not provide a service. They are passing on their cost to the renter. If you can get an aircraft such as a Cub, 172, 182, etc. for the right price, train in it and then re-sale it for your purchase price (or close to it) you come out way ahead. The 3 aircraft mentioned can very easily be purchased, trained in, and sold for the same price (within a year) in the current market and you are only out the hanger, maintenance, and insurance cost.

Tail control IS the main challenge, crosswind and breaking are just components of the control. If you begin your training in a tailwheel, it will become natural for you much quicker than training in a nose bumper first and transitioning later. A tailwheel pilot can get into a nose bumper and fly it with little to no training, but not vise versa. Breaking is a component of tail control, you do whatever it takes to keep the tail behind you and the nose pointed down the runway. You continually fly the tail whether you are on the ground, or in the air and you will learn to fly with your feet both on the ground and in the air. If your feet are not moving, the prop must not be turning. It is not really that hard, just different for a nose bumper pilot. Tailwheel will make you an all around better pilot.

-Low
Aviation Underwriter / Pilot

cool, that sounds like good advice too.... so could i train in a cub?

As long as it has the basic instruments needed to complete the training requirements.

-Low

cool, i'm really enjoying this forum... thanks for all the info... what else did everyone train on out there? i guess many would have trained on 150's like my friend... my other lucky friend got to train in a station air... sweet plane, 6 seater, leather, really nice avionics.... multiple pitch prop.

The going rental rate for a Cessna 152 around here is $100 / hour and a 172 is $145 / hour. Neither of those prices include an instructor which is another $25 / hour. If you rent (no resale return on investment) for 300 hours before getting your own airplane....well, you can do the math. When / if you sell the aircraft you will get a percentage of your investment back.

-Low

wo 125*300=37,500 is that for real? does it really take 300 hrs???? i thought most guys ended up paying out 8k for a ppl, renting.... granted i know they didn't spend 300 in the air... whats the significance of that number of hrs?