jetboy2003

Ha ha cool, I had a summer job last summer doing aerial photography. It was low-level farmstead stuff... but it was a good job. It did suck being on the road all the time, we had a couple of week long excursions. I am actually taking a class on photogrammetry right now and that still is an option for me if one so arises. But yes I do absolutely love flying airplanes, I could not imagine doing anything else. I will never leave it.

FLYBOY

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Wish you the best with it. You will love it! Keep it up.

Bruno Stachel

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Flyboy and Jetboy,

During college I dispatched for a trucking company that leased loads of steel and machinery to independant flat bed drivers. There were three men from Ohio, a father and two sons, that hauled freight for the company. They were also serious corn farmers. In addition to the farming and trucking, one of them also flew a plane for aerial surveying and wire inspection.
I never met harder working men in my life. And they seemed to love every minute of life. Some say to do what you love, and everything will take care of itself. Those guys were classic examples of that.

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

I see that a lot! I have watched men work jobs they like for little money and loved life, and I have watched guys get rich doing stuff they don't like, and they are misserable forever. I quit a job I kind of liked but didn't want to do every day when I was 22 and have flown since. It makes everything else good. I have owned construction companies on the side, sold estates for people and played some in realestate. Its all good if you enjoy it. When it gets to be work, it gets old fast.

Airbourne in Japan

My Feedback: (3)

i agree with what you said Flyboy. i worked on and off for 15 years as a freelance programmer and i earnt really good money, although not a lot over 15 years, but all the while i just wanted to finance my flying and be a commercial pilot, plus travel around the world. i always hated sitting in an office and yearned to fly professionally, but illness got in the way so i wouldn't have been able to pass a professional medical. i only did about 250 hours in single engined planes plus some time on gliders, but when i moved to Japan 7 years ago there's no light aviation or gliders were i live (and in most of Japan) so i got into rc flying. i now hardly work and have plenty of time for rc flying and i'm happy at last !!

my son and daughter are still very young and i wonder whether to encourage them to be pilots. i don't think long haul is a good job when you get older, especially for people with families, but i'll leave them to find their own way in life and help them then. talking of pilot shortages, because Japan doesn't have much light aviation, there has been talk of this being a serious problem here as Japanese companies don't like hiring non-Japanese generally. however all aviation from pilots to atc is in English everywhere in Japan

Semi Retired Aviator

Oh yeah, Japan, where those jerks from JCAB, and who have never flown a jet, or even an aircraft other than a trainer, check guys with thousands of jet hours and tell them they're dangerous!!

I guess you meant "all aviation communication in Japan is in English" Airbourne? Well if that's the case it's changed recently because when I was flying there the Japanese speaking in Japanese with ATC and vv really pi$$ed me off. How can there be situational awareness when many of the PIC's don't know what the hell other aircraft, within a few miles of their own aircraft, are doing.

Worst standard of flying I've ever seen in Japan for a whole lot of reasons.

Every damned check I did with JCAb I was asked how many active volcanoes there were in Japan; that was the depth of the JCAB examiners' knowledge. And another one; How many lights in the normal approach array? I gave them how many rows of lights, pattern and spacing, but they wanted to know how many individual lights!! Who would know or even care.

jetboy2003

Well off to the world of airlines i go... Just got an interview with Great Lakes!!

Tripower455

My Feedback: (2)

Good luck!

Well, maybe!

jetboy2003

Lol thanks, we'll see. Don't wanna count my chickens

jantrit

Im 16 right now and desperately want to get into a job in aviation, I am also starting to learn 3d but that is a different matter. I have the books for the ppl theory and i am studying and looking through them, i was thinking of joining the air force after 6th form, and eventually flying for an airline or crop dusting or something. I know this is slightly off topic but does anyone know where I can info on careers in aviation or advice on that kind of stuff?
if people fell it is too off topic I will remove the post

thanks michael

Lowlevlflyer

My Feedback: (3)

When you talk about "airline flying" and "cropdusting", you are talking about two VERY different kinds of flying, and two VERY different types of pilots. I am chief pilot for a large aerial pipeline patrol company here in Oklahoma, and I make my living flying low level operations. Before I got into pipeline patrol work, I flew ag for 4 years, buidling a little over 1,000 hrs in Ag Cats, 301 Air Tractors, and a few hours in a Turbine Thrush. I love my job now, and make a comfortable living at it, and get to fly 5 days a week. I've got right at 6,000 hrs now, almost all of it on low level flight ops, and you absolutely couldnt PAY me enough money to go to an airline job. That is just not my idea of flying. I wanted to be a pilot ever since I was old enough to know what an airplane was. Heck, I've known how to use an E6-B (the whizwheel) since I was 13. They say a person is truly blessed when they can make a living doing something they love. I believe I am VERY blessed.

jantrit

Yeah they are very different, but I was just chucking a few ideas out there. I would much rather go into the ag side of things, but what would I have to do to get my foot on the first run of the ladder so to speak

Chip_Mull

My Feedback: (1)

Don't get me wrong guys, I wholheartedly agree with Hossfly!! I have over 30 years in the industry not including my time in part 135 flying and military. It's not, let's make that "NOT" the industry we signed up for. The change began when Frank Lorenzo bought Texas Air. From the time Lorenzo came into the industry, it began to morf into what you see today in work rules and benefits.

He was the best model CEO ATA could have dreamed up. If you watch carefully or look back studiously over the last few decades, there are very few original thoughts from CEOs in the airline industry. Most are followers. Most changes come with one airline starting a trend and the others jump into the boat. Look at American Airlines and the "Regional Airlines", then that deceptive term "Regional Jets". What region, the USA?

Of all airlines that have preserved the most of their contract after 911 (another great opportunity for a dying industry) American (APA) takes the lead. Of all the top 10 carriers, American has never declared bankruptcy. American took some hits on salary but very late in the game and not nearly what the ALPA carriers took. American preserved the pilots retirement. Not one ALPA carrier can say this.

Having said that, if "jantrit" wants information on the industry go to: http://www.alpa.org/?tabid=139 or http://www.apla.org . It may sound like a ***** board but it's current and it's what's happening in the airline industry. Start with the top three on the left "Who we are", "In the cockpit", and "Our History".

Every single newhire pilot, whether it's an ALPA carrier or not needs to read "Flying the Line" both volumes. It is a complete history on how the industry got to the shape it is in today. It shows how well intended, safety minded pilots started an organization to protect the pilot and the passengers. It (ALPA)has changed as much as the industry.

Our problem in the airline industry has been the method of obtaining the time and education to qualify for an interview. In the olden days we were mostly prior military pilots. Military pilots respected seniority (AKA "Rank"). Military pilots respected time in service. Military pilots respected the views and opinions of their peers. Not to say pilots hired outside of the military did not, it's just to say it was a huge majority.

Then, it became a rich mans game. The military wasn't pumping out many pilots and GA was. Consequently, if you wanted to obtain the required degree and amass the huge number of ratings along with flight time, you had to attend one of the pilot mills. Along with the flying was an appropriate amount of classroom studies by professors that were largely "management" in their way of thinking. Thoughts like "the company wouldn't ask for concessions if they didn't need them". As more and more of these younger less experienced pilots came on line, it was treated more and more like a government job.

We saw phrases like "no furlough clauses" and assements for health insurance for furloughees. The younger pilots have a feeling of entitlement or the industry owes me something for my loyalty to the company.

ALPA is not some great white savior in DC. ALPA representatives are elected from the line pilots. More and more of these elected representatives feel more of a loyalty to "help the company survive" than to preserve the contract and working conditions carved out and crafted over the decades by their predesessors. The fear of having to get a "real job" scares the hell out of them and they literally would do anything to protect the company and they forget the pilots they represent. Hence the numerous retirements that have been given away by ALPA reps. Not to mention the work rules that made the job the envy of every working man in the world. There was a time the airline pilot actually had the money to enjoy the time off he had with his family. He could also look forward to a comfortable retirement. By comfortable I mean to get by not to get rich. He could also look forward to having health benefits to take care of his family and himself both at work and in retirement.

Again, take a look back and see what occurs almost immediately after huge give backs by pilots. It's usually only a month or two until management announces another Platinum parachute for the CEO, President and VPs. At USAIR we had a much pleaded for reduction in pilot benefits of about 20 Million and two weeks later the mechanics went on strike costing the company ...guess how much.... TWENTY MILLION. You can never convince me management didn't plan on this to the dollar.

This industry is very volitile to say the least. It swings like the pendulem do. It will come back but it will take decades or at least a couple of generations. We used to have CEOs like Bob Six at Continental that we could respect. Now all the CEOs are bean counters and know absolutely nothing about the "love of aviation" or give a _hit less about it. It's all about building that parachute.

Would I recommend a job in the airlines today?? Maybe, with the right company with the right contract. But, not for all companies and not for all pilots. For a young pilot starting out I recommend thinking about your fellow pilots and your future. We have written the history, now don't repeat it. The companies will survive with or without your concessions. How else would they sew the lining in their platinum parachutes. They can always depend on a sympathizer amongst the ranks and you don't have to apply for it. If you have the backbone to Just Say NO, they will get the picture. Take a look at history, the pilots are always the first to be asked and the first to give. Seldom do the other crafts follow. Remember the Republican montra for drug users....Just Say No.

I have turned 60 and am leaving now. Please repair what my fellow MECers have ruined. Some of us fought a hard battle only to be defeated by "They wouldn't ask if they didn't need it". Well, now they have it and look at what is being said about the industry both inside and out. Did they really need it? I doubt it. Did we need to give it all away? I seriously doubt it.

It was fun while it lasted and it will be fun again, just not in our lifetime. Fourteen and sixteen hour days for 4 hours pay and substandard salaries for airline pilots with more and more days away from home have taken the toll on all of us. As good a job as it is, it still isn't worth beating us to death for the salary of a pilot 30 years ago. We work more hours and receive less pay (adjusted for inflation) than when I started in 1974.

If you have lasted this long on this thread GOOD ON YA.

Adios my friends.

skyboy500

Fascinating comments... I left Part 135 (PRINAIR (PQ) in SJU) in '83, flew contract/part-time right seat corporate (HS-125 for about 5yrs from '89 till '94). I also was an ALPA member while at PQ and was proud of that association. When I left PQ I had an ATP, over 8,000 hrs, etc. You would have thought I had the world in my hands... Think again! About that time, deregulation was taking effect, after that, job security became non-existent. I had a wife and newborn so I decided to seek a more secure line of work. I went to work with the FAA thinking that I would work for Flt. Standards or FIFO, or something that would allow me to make noise! Instead, I worked ATC stuff, mostly FSS/AFSS, which I found to be noble work (only second to flying, in my opinion). As you may know, a few years ago, the FAA finally figured out a way to contract FSS/AFSS work to Lockheed, fortunately for me, I had been working at a Regional Office (where I still work) for over 8 yrs when that happened.

Anyway, just wanted to chime with my ALPA friends. BTW, no, I didn't "Scab" the ATCS job, in fact, on the day that I had an interview scheduled I cancelled it. I was told that I would never get another chance like this again, etc. Some years later, after the "cleansing", I took that test again (several times), and was hired.

Most people will disagree with me on the following comment... Pilots, even the "big guys" are well underpaid! I would ask people that disagree... What would you pay the pilots in the cockpit of the airplane that you and your family are flying in? Fill a heavy jetliner with people and fly it from ATL to, say ORD (a short trip)... What's that worth to you? $100.00? $1,000.00? Is there really a "fair compensation", of course not, however, a compromise must be reached, I understand that. I would make the same argument for the guy flying a smaller regional jet... what's it worth? I am hopeful that someday our brothers/sisters will be treated again with the respect that they have earned and compensated so that they can live a great life.

My advice, if flying is in your blood, like it was (is) in mine, do whatever you need to succeed as a pilot, you must be committed! Always strive to be a a great role model for others!

As for me, I am not bitter, after all, I realized my dream of flying for a living. I enjoy what I do for FAA (Airpace Specialist) and am on track to get back into R/C with a Big Stick 60/OS-61.

All of this is IMHO only... Fire away!

ALPA/PQ (Anybody out there remember PRINAIR?)

Chris Moon

My Feedback: (8)

No flames coming from me!

Dollars and cents is all that matters to people today. Cheapest ticket is all they care about. That and combined with the fact that new "pilots" right out of school with 250 hours are willing to fly an airliner with passengers for McDonald's wages puts a huge pressure on today's pay scales. It will take a major upheaval before things get back in line and pay returns to a level commensurate with the training and skills and responsibility involved.

skyboy500

Thanks UAL!

Though I am not smart enough to figure it out, I would venture that the pilot cost is a small fraction of the total operating cost of almost any airliner.

Bax

My Feedback: (11)

Yep, but when you have a large airline that may have money problems for any number of reasons (mis-management is common!), the large number of pilots represent a large dollar expenditure that has some "give" to it. You don't have that much "give" in fuel prices, airport gate rentals and such, so they take it wherever they can. Same things happened to flight attendants, mechanics, gate agents, and so on. So you now have people who are vital to running the airline who no longer feel that the company has any care for them at all. And so you get surly gate agents, lost baggage, and ill-kept aircraft cabins that aren't as clean as most fast food restaurants.

.....and then you have airlines like Southwest, where the employees actually have a stake in how the airline performs.

skyboy500

Bill,

I don't disagree with you. A series of events and practices have placed us where we are. I remember when I was a kid, my father (in PR) had several friends that worked for Delta, American, Iberia, etc. as counter agents at SJU. I was always amazed and impressed by their sharpness, even during informal occasions when I would see them. They were living well and had the admiration of their employers. I became more aware of the second part of that statement when I moved back to PR after college and started flying at SJU. I would frequently see these guys and they were always courteous, professional-looking and industrious. Probably in the late 80's, or so, airlines began (IMHO, I might be wrong) adding part-time employees. Oh, they were good also, but somehow, something didn't feel right to me and time passed. Today, part timing, in general has become a way of not paying certain overheads that are incurred with full time employees. I know, it has also created opportunities for many. I, like you, see the airline business as a team effort and don't actually believe that pilots alone can make it work (though I know I might have sounded that way!).

I guess this takes us back to Southwest, a group of employees facilitating extraordinary success during such difficult times...

Cesar

dirtybird

My Feedback: (5)

To those that admire SW, tell me why they just got a 10M fine for flying unsafe aircraft.

Tripower455

My Feedback: (2)

Because it's an election year, and "unsafe" sells better than "business as usual"........

Flyfalcons

Lots of aircraft fly unsafe. Southwest just got caught. No I'm not a Southwest cheerleader either, I hate riding on them.