JW0311

Kerryg, Do you think that If we were able to present these folks with the facts surrounding failure rates and the uncontrollable variables that go with these types of activities, that that would have changed their minds or is it better to throw out a long list of regulations? Not my intent to argue. Just curious what your thoughts are. Regulation vs education. Or perhaps a little of both?

James

JohnShe

You are correct, the idiots will have to be weeded out. But that is exactly why general aviation is so safe today.

JohnShe

Effective general and commercial aviation begins on the ground learning the regulations. And it works. Nobody in their right mind would walk out onto a pasture and pay an unlicensed flyer to take him somewhere in an uncertified aircraft. They used to, back in the barnstorming days, but not anymore.

I expect the same thing to happen with commercial drone aviation. An informed customer will inspect insurance papers, licenses and certificates before paying anyone to operate a drone.

I have said it before and I will say it again. If I encounter a toy drone being operated in and unsafe manner, I will call the law. And, I will continue to do so until I see genuine registration numbers on the aircraft.

JW0311

I can't argue that John. As humans, we have the ability to be irrational. Me included. I'm sure in the next 24 hours I will do something stupid. I guess my point is that this will always be the case. Regulation or not. Is there a better way to approach this other than to through out a bunch of regulation by the Government. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I'm not sure continuing down the path of more regulation will yield the results we are both after. My fear is that at some point it will back-fire and it will be to late to do anything about it. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Would this be the unintended consequences?

James

JW0311

I have this argument all the time with some of the guys I work with. They state that because they are certified they are competent to perform their job. I disagree. The certification means that they should be competent. Competence is the result of knowledge, experience and personal commitment to your craft. Certification does not equal competency. I agree the we should follow the rules. No argument there. It will be the individuals choice as to whether they follow them. I can have all the certifications in the world. Does not mean I know what I'm doing or that I will do it safely. I do agree with your point. This and any other remote controlled flight must be done in a safe manner. Just not sure we agree on how to get there.

James

Sport_Pilot

When I think about it they will appoint useful idiot's like your self who will gladly report almost everybody to the FAA for free!

Sport_Pilot

Check out the downwind turn thread. This one is young!

Sport_Pilot

Actually if you are alone across the flight line, you can take that risk.

Sport_Pilot

Actually there are more than enough laws and regulations for this. There are property rights laws, assault laws, accidental injury laws, etc. There is really no need for FAA rule of this. Possibly there needs to be some code that states could adopt, just as many have the same codes for buildings and highways. But there is no reason for the FAA to do this, they will just make it restrictive hoping you would hire a full scale helicopter instead.

Sport_Pilot

I picture John turning in a pre schooler and demanding he paste on a registration decal that is larger and weighs more than his AirHog!

bradpaul

And that says all we need to know about JohnShe

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

If he's is not now, he will likely soon be a club president... A fellow that called the cops on me for flying a 10 oz foam plane in a parking lot made it... I think John has every bit that potential...

kerryg

Regulations do nothing if nobody knows about them. Education is therefor far more important than regulation. Every RTF, BNF, or ARF kit should come with a DVD or a quick start guide with a link to an online video that covers basic safety and rules. Make it a big sticker that has to be pulled off, something obvious. It won't solve everything but at least its an effort.

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

No that was me! You showed up at the parking lot/school yard/park (pick one) unloaded your foamy and even though there were others using the area started to fly ranging further and further until you not only were flying over the heads of unsuspecting users of that area. Finally kids and adults noticed your actions and as curiosity got the better of them they flocked around you coming from all directions. Now you have an audience so you start to show off zooming close by over the heads of adult and child alike without regard to the consequences of not leaving room for an error in judgment. You think it great fun to get some to duck and jump out of the way of your few oz. foamy. Yep I’m free to do whatever I want because no one told me I can’t.

Hit someone or damage something and you slink back to the car like the coward you are and sneak off hoping no one noticed your license plate.

Yep I’ll call the cops every time on ya. I consider you to be the same as the jerks who ride their four wheelers into a park or on baseball diamonds and do donuts damaging everything in sight.

You don’t have specific permission to be there then you’re in the wrong. Most communities have bylaws in place because of you guys and your irresponsible attitude towards others. Your individual rights trump all others right?????

If it were me I would walk out and insist that the cop charge you if there were indeed a bylaw against what you were doing.

Dennis

JohnShe

Doesn't the criteria for issuing the certificate matter? After all, the guys or gals who step onto the flight deck of a 777 or an A380 have to have certified competence. That is what certificate stands for. many posts ago we were talking about a training scam that issued a certificate. As far as criteria matters, the certificates were inadequate to the point that you couldn't use one to buy a cup of coffee. Yet, the professionals who fly commercial aviation are far more stringently evaluated before being allowed to step onto the flight deck.

So, there are certificates and then there are Certificates.

JohnShe

They come with a manual that advises them to join the AMA or at least learn the safety guidelines, as well as how to fly their new toy. Most idiots ignore them. Have you read any of the beginner forums and threads? These buffoons are constantly asking questions that are answered in those manuals.

JohnShe

Absolutely, we forget things, get preoccupied with incidentals and even lose control of our aircraft in a strong wind. I understand that, I am as guilty as everyone else (watch LCS take that one out of context). But, that's why there are rules posters, fences, lines drawn on the field, club safety officers, spotters and a whole host of aids. We use these tools so that we can fly safely and have fun. I do not regret them one bit.

And, that is all that I am asking for in the case of commercial drone operations. They need a set of tools and guidelines,not necessarily the AMA set, so that they can fly safely and make money.

JohnShe

Well spoken I couldn't have said it better.

804

My Feedback: (1)

Originally Posted by Propworn
No that was me! You showed up at the parking lot/school yard/park (pick one) unloaded your foamy and even though there were others using the area started to fly ranging further and further until you not only were flying over the heads of unsuspecting users of that area. Finally kids and adults noticed your actions and as curiosity got the better of them they flocked around you coming from all directions. Now you have an audience so you start to show off zooming close by over the heads of adult and child alike without regard to the consequences of not leaving room for an error in judgment. You think it great fun to get some to duck and jump out of the way of your few oz. foamy. Yep I’m free to do whatever I want because no one told me I can’t.

Hit someone or damage something and you slink back to the car like the coward you are and sneak off hoping no one noticed your license plate.

Yep I’ll call the cops every time on ya. I consider you to be the same as the jerks who ride their four wheelers into a park or on baseball diamonds and do donuts damaging everything in sight.

You don’t have specific permission to be there then you’re in the wrong. Most communities have bylaws in place because of you guys and your irresponsible attitude towards others. Your individual rights trump all others right?????

If it were me I would walk out and insist that the cop charge you if there were indeed a bylaw against what you were doing.

Dennis



I, for one, can perfectly understand Propworm's and Johnshe"s aversion to getting bonked in the head (again) by some flying object.
Duck, gentlemen.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

You put a pretty good spin on things, that's for sure. Over the years I've known probably close to a hundred if not more people that fly at parks and schools without any issues...but I guess if one wants to paint hobbyists in the worst possible way, you seem pretty capable...You are a real asset in paving the proverbial road. I am sure there are many know-it-all hypocrites that will get on your band wagon... Its guys like you that make the hobby what it is...and I am certain you consider yourself very successful...and you are.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

[QUOTE=Propworn;11780620

If it were me I would walk out and insist that the cop charge you if there were indeed a bylaw against what you were doing.

Dennis[/QUOTE]

BTW Your use of the word "bylaw" in this instance gives me a clear indication of the caliber of mind I've responded to...it really is all about control isn't it?

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

After thinking about this a bit it has become clear there are those simple minded people that just can't get their mind around the fact that a "right" does not absolve a person from being held accountable for exercising their "right".

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Generally you are correct here, but that does not represent the entire world of park flyers. Go back to the reasons several towns/cities in Texas have outlawed model aviation within their boundaries by ordinance for reasons similar to those spun by Dennis. Try El Paso for one and I am sure you can find others. The real problem is those that actually do the deed and insure the hobbyist has a black eye.

BTW, his use of the term 'bylaw' is the term used in Canada for local ordinances.

While James (JW0311) makes valid points about regulation not stopping stupidity, they do give the victim more rights than a simple civil suit they are currently limited to. The bogus assertion by the tin foil hat guy that they can be charged with assault can be demonstrated to be false by simply looking at injuries in an auto accident. Unless alcohol is involved they don't arrest and charge anyone with assault, at least not in the real world.

Rather than anarchy proposed by the tin foil hat crowd, or excessive regulation others think about, the only type of stuff that needs to be managed by the 'authorities' is the commercial activity. If you insist on playing gong head about the altitude stuff, you are welcome to go to WDC and fight with your hip pocket congress critters because this is not the venue for that kind of stupidity. Saying that it is too late for aviation to be under state control but ok for this technology strongly suggests that there is a significant shortage of rationality in use. Everyone in this hobby talks about how we are part of aviation, so why should this be different?

The issue is NOT excessive regulation, but the requirement for the equipment to be safe to operate in a commercial environment and that will effectively be put on the manufacturers by the licensing process just like is done with Cessna, Piper, Mooney, Beechcraft, and all aircraft operated for profit. While I think there should be an education process to insure the users do not take unnecessary risks, as has been said before teaching Joe not to fly in his face won't stop him if he decides to be stupid.

Currently we have nothing other than a multitude of reports of visually unsafe activities, a few actual physical incidents, and at least one reported injury. I wonder when one of these smarter than I folks is going to kill someone. Oh, by the way if it is an accident no charges get filed. However if it is an accident involving a licensed commercial activity there are many repercussions, some of them quite personal for the operator. Look at the traveling kiddie rides for another model.

bradpaul

As for the comparison to full scale................. When you have to invest a few thousand to get your license and a few tens of thousands to buy a small plane then it somewhat limits the market to the dedicated or wealthy and rule/regulation followers

When you can buy a video equipped multirotor for $300 and do not need any other training, other the perhaps a PC simulator, then you get tens of thousands of drones flown by kids up to senior citizens. Say Bobby down the street takes a few pictures for his neighbor a Realtor and gets paid? What then call the cops?

You guys sound just like the busy body jerk that calls the cops on the neighbor kids because they don't have a vendor license to sell lemonade. Who knows what health regulations were not followed in the preparation of the lemonade? And the city/town did not get their cut for vendor license fees.

The PROBLEM is not true "commercial drone" it is the amateur small for chump change pilot. And if you guys think that regulations can solve that PROBLEM better than education than call me about a "bridge in Brooklyn" for sale.

The AMA knows this, that is why they are working with other FPV/ drone groups to figure out where they can fit in (and probably make some money).

Call the cops! Call the cops! there is a kid flying a video drone in the street and it does not have a "JohnShe" registration number. Oh the humanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JohnShe

I have said it before, and I will say it again. I will call the law if I encounter anyone operating one of those toys in an unsafe manner.

And yes, I expect that REAL commercial drone operations will cost a few bills. Both learning how to operate a reliable drone safely and purchasing the the drone itself may cost thousands, but I don't care. A real entrepreneur can write a business plan and get a small business loan from the government. That is, unless conservatives shut down the SBA because it represents Big Government.