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Open question to AMA Executive Council

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Open question to AMA Executive Council

Old 06-06-2020, 04:01 AM
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franklin_m
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Default Open question to AMA Executive Council

I'll make this easy, it's a YES or NO question for the AMA EC:

"If an AMA member is operating a sUAS of any type above 400 feet AGL in class G; whether or not:

- Flying in a sanctioned event,
- Flying at an AMA club/flying site, or
- Flying at the AMA International Aeromodeling Center (IAC);

Is that AMA member complying with Federal law?"

Again, this is a simple yes or no. But if AMA EC or one of its members fails to respond (and we know one regularly views these pages), then I think ALL members should note what that lack of response means. For it would be clear indication the AMA EC lacks the moral courage to go on record with a clear and unambiguous answer for its members (i.e. yes or no), and thus AMA EC is perfectly ok letting you believe something to be true that is not - therefore imposing risk on YOU - while they hide behind ambiguous statements.

This isn't about FAA enforcement, what FAA knows or doesn't know is happening, or what AMA is "working on" for the future. it's about black and white interpretation of LAW as it sits RIGHT NOT - something AMA owes its members.

Last edited by franklin_m; 06-06-2020 at 04:04 AM. Reason: Fix spacing and indents
Old 06-06-2020, 05:01 AM
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Hydro Junkie
 
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You do realize you are probably going to be opening a serious "can of worms" with a few people that you know all too well will object to this question, don't you?
Old 06-06-2020, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
You do realize you are probably going to be opening a serious "can of worms" with a few people that you know all too well will object to this question, don't you?
Yep. But they object because they know the answer, and they know they're part of the problem (ignoring one part of a law ... while asking that those who ignore other parts of the law to be prosecuted)

But the real goal is for people to see the EC silence on the matter for what it is, lack of moral fiber. The AMA also knows or should know that "direct representatives of the AMA" (i.e. CDs) are knowing tolerating overt violation of law at many sanctioned events. And since AMA knows that's happening, and does nothing about it, then they are in fact encouraging blatant disregard for FARs by its members.

... And AMA wonders why FAA, other aviation stakeholders, regulators, lawmakers, the media, and the public don't take them seriously.
Old 06-06-2020, 05:46 AM
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As a nonmember of the AMA I have always had a reluctance to join, in part due to the fact that something always smelled fishy to me about this organization.
With issues being discussed and brought to light, at the very least I'm gratified to know that my olfactory senses were not playing tricks on me.
Old 06-06-2020, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by airsteve172 View Post
As a nonmember of the AMA I have always had a reluctance to join, in part due to the fact that something always smelled fishy to me about this organization.
With issues being discussed and brought to light, at the very least I'm gratified to know that my olfactory senses were not playing tricks on me.
What's ironic is that they could do real good for the hobby with a change in leadership and associated organizational strategy and priorities.

When the AMA President uses the official publication of the organization to attack an opponent in an election, and the EC does nothing about it, you get the kind of smell you detected.
Old 06-06-2020, 06:24 AM
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This forum is a total waste of time! I hope it keeps the few who trade jibes back and forth happy. I am embarrassed to admit I even look here!
Larry
Old 06-06-2020, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
This forum is a total waste of time! I hope it keeps the few who trade jibes back and forth happy. I am embarrassed to admit I even look here!
Larry
There's help available for compulsive disorders so that one needn't live with embarrassment.
Old 06-06-2020, 07:01 AM
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That's exactly the type of comment I expected, I think I will go fly.
Larry
Old 06-06-2020, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
This forum is a total waste of time! I hope it keeps the few who trade jibes back and forth happy. I am embarrassed to admit I even look here!
Larry
Please expound. Embarrassed why?
If it weren't for this forum, we would all think that all is well in Maberry (Muncie), because that is what the man behind the curtain is telling us.
And yes, I am truly interested to hear why you feel as you do and were compelled to share those feelings publicly.

Astro
Old 06-06-2020, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
This forum is a total waste of time! I hope it keeps the few who trade jibes back and forth happy. I am embarrassed to admit I even look here!
Larry
You've embarrassed yourself alright, bless you for leaving.
Old 06-06-2020, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
Please expound. Embarrassed why?
If it weren't for this forum, we would all think that all is well in Maberry (Muncie), because that is what the man behind the curtain is telling us.
And yes, I am truly interested to hear why you feel as you do and were compelled to share those feelings publicly.

Astro
Astro, I think there are a lot of us who would like to hear why as well.
Old 06-06-2020, 04:56 PM
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Has anyone besides me noticed that, after 12 hours, not one AMA "Minion" has posted in this thread? I figured SOMEONE would have posted in here within 6 hours. I guess I was wrong but, then again, the AMA "Minions" might not be as gung ho about the AMA as we all thought
Old 06-06-2020, 05:04 PM
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As the law/regulation is currently written, yes, exceeding 400' AGL, in uncontrolled (class G) airspace, would be a violation of applicable FAR/CFR's.

Unless prior arrangements with the local FAA FSDO/ATC facility were made to allow exceeding 400' AGL.

This is why my 25% Stearman and my DP Ultimate 120 will stay parked in the shop. I'm not willing to risk a violation which could also effect my ATP (and by extension my livelihood).

R_Strowe
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PS: I would have responded sooner. Been busy pushing a '76 around the country.
Old 06-06-2020, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
Has anyone besides me noticed that, after 12 hours, not one AMA "Minion" has posted in this thread? I figured SOMEONE would have posted in here within 6 hours. I guess I was wrong but, then again, the AMA "Minions" might not be as gung ho about the AMA as we all thought
The answer to the question here really is obvious, there is no spinning it in a different direction or twisting reality to be done. Most all of us here know that it is against the current regulations to fly above 400' unless there is an LOA or some other agreement to the contrary with the FAA and there have been precious few sites that have been through the process and had that granted. My opinion is there really is only one legitimate answer. Many of us here, myself included, believe that you need to follow the law and regulations in place while you try to effect changes. AMA member or not but AMA members especially need to be seen as obeying the FARs.

Old 06-06-2020, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by R_Strowe View Post
PS: I would have responded sooner. Been busy pushing a '76 around the country.
You may be an AMA member but you're not one of those I was referring to, that is unless you want to be
Old 06-06-2020, 05:50 PM
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I wasn't holding my breath waiting for speedy to respond. He rarely answers direct questions with direct answers.
Old 06-06-2020, 06:02 PM
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I think you guys are unnecessarily alienating speedracertrixie. Over 400' with pattern isn't an issue.
Old 06-06-2020, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
You may be an AMA member but you're not one of those I was referring to, that is unless you want to be


R_Strowe
Old 06-06-2020, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
I think you guys are unnecessarily alienating speedracertrixie. Over 400' with pattern isn't an issue.
The issues do include the 400 foot rule but it also includes all the rest that the FAA and AMA are in dispute over. As I said in another thread, IF the organizers of an event work with the local FAA office, the altitude limit could be raised or waved, within reason. IF, on the other hand, the organizers just do what they want without consulting/working with the FAA, anything that happens to the organizers or contestants due to breaking the law will be on them.
Old 06-07-2020, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
The issues do include the 400 foot rule but it also includes all the rest that the FAA and AMA are in dispute over. As I said in another thread, IF the organizers of an event work with the local FAA office, the altitude limit could be raised or waved, within reason. IF, on the other hand, the organizers just do what they want without consulting/working with the FAA, anything that happens to the organizers or contestants due to breaking the law will be on them.
I was just talking about speedracertrixie. No reason to single him out. Pattern is
an established part of the hobby that has existed for decades without problems.

The larger point is AMA's attitude toward not just 400' but all rules is the prime cause
of the widespread anarchy that killed the hobby and the FAA taking over.
Old 06-07-2020, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
I was just talking about speedracertrixie. No reason to single him out. Pattern is
an established part of the hobby that has existed for decades without problems.

The larger point is AMA's attitude toward not just 400' but all rules is the prime cause
of the widespread anarchy that killed the hobby and the FAA taking over.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say?
ALL aspects of RC flying have existed for decades without any problems. Problems aren't the problem, the new laws are. Like them or not and silly as they may seem to us, they are the new reality.
Speed singled himself out by being the only one on this thread that publicly thumbed his nose at the laws. Not a good look for an AMA member to come on a public forum and openly admit to disobeying the law because HE doesn't agree with it. The AMA's whole premise is that we have effectively self-policed our saftey rules for decades by reminding other members when they are not following them. I raised that point here, and Speed essentially told me to shove it, he'll do as he pleases.....now you say it is not fair that speed is singled out for openly breaking the law.......really effective policy, it's no wonder the FAA didn't want to play with the AMA......

Astro
Old 06-07-2020, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
I'm not sure what you are trying to say?
ALL aspects of RC flying have existed for decades without any problems. Problems aren't the problem, the new laws are. Like them or not and silly as they may seem to us, they are the new reality.
Speed singled himself out by being the only one on this thread that publicly thumbed his nose at the laws. Not a good look for an AMA member to come on a public forum and openly admit to disobeying the law because HE doesn't agree with it. The AMA's whole premise is that we have effectively self-policed our saftey rules for decades by reminding other members when they are not following them. I raised that point here, and Speed essentially told me to shove it, he'll do as he pleases.....now you say it is not fair that speed is singled out for openly breaking the law.......really effective policy, it's no wonder the FAA didn't want to play with the AMA......

Astro
You bring up an excellent point. How can AMA tell the FAA and others that they're self-policing, when you can go to just about any club field or sanctioned event in class G and see AMA members ignoring the 400 limit? Pretty much proves that the organization may doing something, but it isn't "self-policing."
Old 06-07-2020, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
I'm not sure what you are trying to say?
ALL aspects of RC flying have existed for decades without any problems. Problems aren't the problem, the new laws are. Like them or not and silly as they may seem to us, they are the new reality.
Speed singled himself out by being the only one on this thread that publicly thumbed his nose at the laws. Not a good look for an AMA member to come on a public forum and openly admit to disobeying the law because HE doesn't agree with it. The AMA's whole premise is that we have effectively self-policed our saftey rules for decades by reminding other members when they are not following them. I raised that point here, and Speed essentially told me to shove it, he'll do as he pleases.....now you say it is not fair that speed is singled out for openly breaking the law.......really effective policy, it's no wonder the FAA didn't want to play with the AMA......

Astro
I've assumed at regular AMA events they would ask for permission for anything over 400'
from the local FSDO since it became a law, be it verbal or otherwise.
Old 06-07-2020, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
I've assumed at regular AMA events they would ask for permission for anything over 400'
from the local FSDO since it became a law, be it verbal or otherwise.
I wouldn't say that is a safe assumption at all!
You know what they say about assuming.....

For instance, last year, I stopped by a local field as they were having an "AMA Jamboree". Large event, parking lot full, AMA district Reps in attendance. I spoke to one of the prior club President's who was in attendance to ask if they had acquired a waiver for this event, as the FAA rules had just gone into effect and this particular field is about a mile from an active, commercial airport and is listed on the FAA drone map as having a 100' altitude limit. In short, the answer was, "no waiver, don't ask, don't tell".

I have to say, I was more than a little surprised, and that also reinforced my, "don't assume anything" rule.

Astro

Last edited by astrohog; 06-07-2020 at 01:39 PM.
Old 06-07-2020, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
I wouldn't say that is a safe assumption at all!
You know what they say about assuming.....

Astro
It could also be a long-standing approval. speedracertrixie should clarify.
Also, how much over 400' feet are those pattern maneuvers?

*** The organizers of AMA event a mile from the airport are unbelievably ignorant.
Why would the droners bother with rules when AMA blows them off.

Last edited by ECHO24; 06-07-2020 at 02:04 PM.

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