AMA Bashing is Pointless
03-02-2021, 07:32 PM
#76
Now don't say that to some of the AMA minions around here. As far as some are concerned, any club that is sanctioned by the AMA is owned by the AMA. The bad part is that they are right, at least according to the ardent AMA members in many of the clubs. You want to fly, show your card or get a card or you're not welcome
03-02-2021, 07:45 PM
#77
Senior Member
I hope you didn't take it personally. The reason I pointed it out and wanted to clarify is because there always seems to be confusion regarding this and I think it is very important that we all have the same understanding of the basic facts and realities surrounding the AMA and it's relationship to clubs.
As has been discussed at length, the common narrative is that, somehow, the AMA "owns" the clubs and the real estate they operate on. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The AMA exists BECAUSE of the clubs and members, not the other way around.
Astro
As has been discussed at length, the common narrative is that, somehow, the AMA "owns" the clubs and the real estate they operate on. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The AMA exists BECAUSE of the clubs and members, not the other way around.
Astro
insurance, a safety program, training material, etc., no new group could offer anything AMA doesn't already.
So this new entity anymodeler imagines would be for RC outside of AMA. Policy wise, that fantasy ended with the new rules and Remote ID.
Fantasy -
the power or process of creating especially unrealistic or improbable mental images in response to psychological need;
Last edited by ECHO24; 03-02-2021 at 07:55 PM.
03-02-2021, 08:00 PM
#78
Anyway, for most part, for flying fields there is no alternative to the AMA. Even if some other RC organization magically appeared and offered
insurance, a safety program, training material, etc., no new group could offer anything AMA doesn't already.
So this new entity anymodeler imagines would be for RC outside of AMA. Policy wise, that fantasy ended with the new rules and Remote ID.
Fantasy -
the power or process of creating especially unrealistic or improbable mental images in response to psychological need;
insurance, a safety program, training material, etc., no new group could offer anything AMA doesn't already.
So this new entity anymodeler imagines would be for RC outside of AMA. Policy wise, that fantasy ended with the new rules and Remote ID.
Fantasy -
the power or process of creating especially unrealistic or improbable mental images in response to psychological need;
03-02-2021, 08:07 PM
#79
Senior Member
b: imaginative fiction featuring especially strange setting
Definition of confused
1a: being perplexed or disconcertedb: disoriented with regard to one's sense of time, place, or identity
2. a zigzag, crisscross, confused trail
Last edited by ECHO24; 03-02-2021 at 08:13 PM.
03-02-2021, 08:31 PM
#81
Here is what I know:
Historically, the AMA has really only provided three things, Insurance, organization/regulation/standardization (where safety and competition are concerned) and advocacy. Over the last decade or so they have proven beyond a reasonable doubt (to me) to be unable to advocate in order that its' members not see new regulations, so advocacy is off my list. Insurance can be had outside of the AMA, so that one is off the list. The only other "value" item on the list of things that make AMA relevant is the organization/standardization/regulation, and that is only important to those who compete, which likely accounts for less than 10% of the membership.
What I am trying to say is, it really wouldn't be that difficult for a group of non-competition, recreational flyers that has a flying field to adopt the AMA safety code, obtain insurance, petition to be recognized as a CBO and walk away from the AMA. The AMA DOES NOT OWN US, and they really can't keep us down with their thumb, despite what they want the unwashed masses to believe. Of course, the more clubs that want to unite, the more legitimacy they would have, and the better insurance rates they would get.
Historically, the AMA has really only provided three things, Insurance, organization/regulation/standardization (where safety and competition are concerned) and advocacy. Over the last decade or so they have proven beyond a reasonable doubt (to me) to be unable to advocate in order that its' members not see new regulations, so advocacy is off my list. Insurance can be had outside of the AMA, so that one is off the list. The only other "value" item on the list of things that make AMA relevant is the organization/standardization/regulation, and that is only important to those who compete, which likely accounts for less than 10% of the membership.
What I am trying to say is, it really wouldn't be that difficult for a group of non-competition, recreational flyers that has a flying field to adopt the AMA safety code, obtain insurance, petition to be recognized as a CBO and walk away from the AMA. The AMA DOES NOT OWN US, and they really can't keep us down with their thumb, despite what they want the unwashed masses to believe. Of course, the more clubs that want to unite, the more legitimacy they would have, and the better insurance rates they would get.
03-02-2021, 09:34 PM
#82
Senior Member
Here is what I know:
Historically, the AMA has really only provided three things, Insurance, organization/regulation/standardization (where safety and competition are concerned) and advocacy. Over the last decade or so they have proven beyond a reasonable doubt (to me) to be unable to advocate in order that its' members not see new regulations, so advocacy is off my list. Insurance can be had outside of the AMA, so that one is off the list. The only other "value" item on the list of things that make AMA relevant is the organization/standardization/regulation, and that is only important to those who compete, which likely accounts for less than 10% of the membership.
What I am trying to say is, it really wouldn't be that difficult for a group of non-competition, recreational flyers that has a flying field to adopt the AMA safety code, obtain insurance, petition to be recognized as a CBO and walk away from the AMA. The AMA DOES NOT OWN US, and they really can't keep us down with their thumb, despite what they want the unwashed masses to believe. Of course, the more clubs that want to unite, the more legitimacy they would have, and the better insurance rates they would get.
Historically, the AMA has really only provided three things, Insurance, organization/regulation/standardization (where safety and competition are concerned) and advocacy. Over the last decade or so they have proven beyond a reasonable doubt (to me) to be unable to advocate in order that its' members not see new regulations, so advocacy is off my list. Insurance can be had outside of the AMA, so that one is off the list. The only other "value" item on the list of things that make AMA relevant is the organization/standardization/regulation, and that is only important to those who compete, which likely accounts for less than 10% of the membership.
What I am trying to say is, it really wouldn't be that difficult for a group of non-competition, recreational flyers that has a flying field to adopt the AMA safety code, obtain insurance, petition to be recognized as a CBO and walk away from the AMA. The AMA DOES NOT OWN US, and they really can't keep us down with their thumb, despite what they want the unwashed masses to believe. Of course, the more clubs that want to unite, the more legitimacy they would have, and the better insurance rates they would get.
insurance personally, but insurance for the field is a different story if it is leased. Even if you find insurance AMA is a known quantity you don't have
to convince a landlord about. You're also on your own with citizen complaints.
AMA claiming an 80-year safety history may be taking credit for the work of all the actual hobbyists responsible, but there is no denying
how big and entrenched AMA has become in all those years. AMA covers every conceivable aspect of RC flying, jets, control line, over
55 lbs, etc., with an army of unpaid volunteers keeping it all going. Are that many clubs really ready to ditch all that? I just don't see it.
Last edited by ECHO24; 03-02-2021 at 09:39 PM.
03-02-2021, 09:42 PM
#83
If they raise the dues again, with no discernible additional benefit, you could see members, and clubs, not willing to pay. You can only ask so much from members before they balk. There are, however, the competition pilots that won't care as long as they can compete in their type of flying
03-02-2021, 10:00 PM
#84
Senior Member
Here is what I know:
Historically, the AMA has really only provided three things, Insurance, organization/regulation/standardization (where safety and competition are concerned) and advocacy. Over the last decade or so they have proven beyond a reasonable doubt (to me) to be unable to advocate in order that its' members not see new regulations, so advocacy is off my list. Insurance can be had outside of the AMA, so that one is off the list. The only other "value" item on the list of things that make AMA relevant is the organization/standardization/regulation, and that is only important to those who compete, which likely accounts for less than 10% of the membership.
What I am trying to say is, it really wouldn't be that difficult for a group of non-competition, recreational flyers that has a flying field to adopt the AMA safety code, obtain insurance, petition to be recognized as a CBO and walk away from the AMA. The AMA DOES NOT OWN US, and they really can't keep us down with their thumb, despite what they want the unwashed masses to believe. Of course, the more clubs that want to unite, the more legitimacy they would have, and the better insurance rates they would get.
Historically, the AMA has really only provided three things, Insurance, organization/regulation/standardization (where safety and competition are concerned) and advocacy. Over the last decade or so they have proven beyond a reasonable doubt (to me) to be unable to advocate in order that its' members not see new regulations, so advocacy is off my list. Insurance can be had outside of the AMA, so that one is off the list. The only other "value" item on the list of things that make AMA relevant is the organization/standardization/regulation, and that is only important to those who compete, which likely accounts for less than 10% of the membership.
What I am trying to say is, it really wouldn't be that difficult for a group of non-competition, recreational flyers that has a flying field to adopt the AMA safety code, obtain insurance, petition to be recognized as a CBO and walk away from the AMA. The AMA DOES NOT OWN US, and they really can't keep us down with their thumb, despite what they want the unwashed masses to believe. Of course, the more clubs that want to unite, the more legitimacy they would have, and the better insurance rates they would get.
03-03-2021, 01:20 AM
#85
Banned
The key is "a group of non-competition, recreational flyers that has a flying field". How many clubs own the property? You might be able to get
insurance personally, but insurance for the field is a different story if it is leased. Even if you find insurance AMA is a known quantity you don't have
to convince a landlord about. You're also on your own with citizen complaints.
AMA claiming an 80-year safety history may be taking credit for the work of all the actual hobbyists responsible, but there is no denying
how big and entrenched AMA has become in all those years. AMA covers every conceivable aspect of RC flying, jets, control line, over
55 lbs, etc., with an army of unpaid volunteers keeping it all going. Are that many clubs really ready to ditch all that? I just don't see it.
insurance personally, but insurance for the field is a different story if it is leased. Even if you find insurance AMA is a known quantity you don't have
to convince a landlord about. You're also on your own with citizen complaints.
AMA claiming an 80-year safety history may be taking credit for the work of all the actual hobbyists responsible, but there is no denying
how big and entrenched AMA has become in all those years. AMA covers every conceivable aspect of RC flying, jets, control line, over
55 lbs, etc., with an army of unpaid volunteers keeping it all going. Are that many clubs really ready to ditch all that? I just don't see it.
That said, thanks to the proliferation of both recreational and commercial MR Drones, sources of insurance abound. One can get personal liability, site liability and hull coverage that will even cover a crash. And it is ALL primary coverage unlike the AMA products. You can get this by the day, month and year. Pay for only the time you're actually flying. Less than 5 minutes on your smart phone, tablet or PC will activate or deactivate your coverage for the dates, times and locations you so designate.
03-03-2021, 06:29 AM
#86
Originally Posted by ECHO24
You might be able to get insurance personally, but insurance for the field is a different story if it is leased.
Originally Posted by ECHO24
Even if you find insurance AMA is a known quantity you don't have to convince a landlord about.
Originally Posted by ECHO24
You're also on your own with citizen complaints.
Originally Posted by ECHO24
AMA claiming an 80-year safety history may be taking credit for the work of all the actual hobbyists responsible, but there is no denying
how big and entrenched AMA has become in all those years.
how big and entrenched AMA has become in all those years.
Originally Posted by ECHO24
AMA covers every conceivable aspect of RC flying, jets, control line, over
55 lbs, etc., with an army of unpaid volunteers keeping it all going. Are that many clubs really ready to ditch all that? I just don't see it.
55 lbs, etc., with an army of unpaid volunteers keeping it all going. Are that many clubs really ready to ditch all that? I just don't see it.
Astro
03-03-2021, 06:35 AM
#87
I've had a few chats with our City Council members. Contribute enough to their campaigns and they listen to anything you care to say. But aside from that, this particular council never heard of the RC modeling AMA before the local club approached then about a field. Medical and motorcycle they knew about. But Models? And BTW, I have permission to fly at the city funded and provided RC Air Park without being AMA or having their insurance. They know my word is good and if I say I'm covered, I'm covered. But I'm staying home. I have a better runway, far nicer bathrooms and I don't have to put up with jerks.
That said, thanks to the proliferation of both recreational and commercial MR Drones, sources of insurance abound. One can get personal liability, site liability and hull coverage that will even cover a crash. And it is ALL primary coverage unlike the AMA products. You can get this by the day, month and year. Pay for only the time you're actually flying. Less than 5 minutes on your smart phone, tablet or PC will activate or deactivate your coverage for the dates, times and locations you so designate.
That said, thanks to the proliferation of both recreational and commercial MR Drones, sources of insurance abound. One can get personal liability, site liability and hull coverage that will even cover a crash. And it is ALL primary coverage unlike the AMA products. You can get this by the day, month and year. Pay for only the time you're actually flying. Less than 5 minutes on your smart phone, tablet or PC will activate or deactivate your coverage for the dates, times and locations you so designate.
Astro
03-03-2021, 06:55 AM
#88
This is yet another fallacy propagated by the AMA shills and execs. "We MUST grow the hobby!"
Our hobby is how some choose to use excess money and time. Does anyone ever stop and ask, "Why? Why MUST we grow the hobby?" Who does growing the hobby serve? The AMA and the manufacturers, PERIOD.
I was drawn into this hobby for my love of all things aviation and the urge and ability to create something with my own two hands. Once I had built my first plane and took it to the club field, I also found the joy of camaraderie with others who share the same passion and that, also, became a "part" of the hobby for me. As my skills and knowledge progressed, I also found a passion for helping others to be successful and enjoy the hobby and that became a part of the hobby to me as well.
I don't think that my experience is a whole lot different than the majority of members, therefore, it is my conclusion and belief that it is the members' and the clubs' responsibility to be the avenue for "growth", or at least provide a positive environment for the beginner to engage and be positive ambassadors for our hobby where the general public is involved and it is the responsibility of the AMA to support that membership and those clubs in those endeavors, working on our behalf to advocate our great hobby to the powers that be in order to assure that we can thrive and continue to enjoy our flying privilege's as we have for generations. In that model, growth will happen organically, by attracting folks who are genuinely interested in and passionate about the hobby, not because, "I need insurance to fly", or because they want access to telemedicine, etc, etc. It insures that we have an active, interested and engaged membership, whether it be 100,000 or 1,000,000 strong.
just my humble $.02
Astro
Our hobby is how some choose to use excess money and time. Does anyone ever stop and ask, "Why? Why MUST we grow the hobby?" Who does growing the hobby serve? The AMA and the manufacturers, PERIOD.
I was drawn into this hobby for my love of all things aviation and the urge and ability to create something with my own two hands. Once I had built my first plane and took it to the club field, I also found the joy of camaraderie with others who share the same passion and that, also, became a "part" of the hobby for me. As my skills and knowledge progressed, I also found a passion for helping others to be successful and enjoy the hobby and that became a part of the hobby to me as well.
I don't think that my experience is a whole lot different than the majority of members, therefore, it is my conclusion and belief that it is the members' and the clubs' responsibility to be the avenue for "growth", or at least provide a positive environment for the beginner to engage and be positive ambassadors for our hobby where the general public is involved and it is the responsibility of the AMA to support that membership and those clubs in those endeavors, working on our behalf to advocate our great hobby to the powers that be in order to assure that we can thrive and continue to enjoy our flying privilege's as we have for generations. In that model, growth will happen organically, by attracting folks who are genuinely interested in and passionate about the hobby, not because, "I need insurance to fly", or because they want access to telemedicine, etc, etc. It insures that we have an active, interested and engaged membership, whether it be 100,000 or 1,000,000 strong.
just my humble $.02
Astro
If there are not enough people consuming these goods, the hobby industry dries up and these items become harder and harder to acquire. True enough that some of these items have other applications and may still be available through other sources, but the availability may be limited (you may have to buy from a primary source in large quantities) and the costs would jump. Specialty items (like props and retracts) are likely to be almost impossible to come by at an affordable price.
Even just to maintain the industry at its current level, we need to keep new entrants coming into the hobby every day, because every day some number of people age out, loses interest, or just becomes too busy. More to the point, the industry itself needs to actually grow to survive (a plain fact of business life is that companies that are not growing are dying). So growth is necessary to have a vibrant hobby industry that enables us to have a vibrant hobby.
A slow decline and slow death may be OK for many of us old farts who will age out over the next decade or so, but for the future, the hobby needs new blood and growth (regardless of what happens to the AMA).
Last edited by aymodeler; 03-03-2021 at 06:57 AM.
03-03-2021, 06:58 AM
#89
Senior Member
The same amount of clubs that own their property right now.
No it isn't. It is ignorant statements like those that will turn this discussion into a train wreck.
A known quantity? To whom? What does that have to do with insurance coverage? Please STOP with the fantasy statement stuff, it does not help this discussion at all.
WHAT? How is that one iota different than the reality right this moment?
Entrenched in what? apathetic members' minds? Please explain
AMA "covers" what? Please explain the specifics of, "all that", you have failed to name one thing that might fall under, "all that".
Astro
No it isn't. It is ignorant statements like those that will turn this discussion into a train wreck.
A known quantity? To whom? What does that have to do with insurance coverage? Please STOP with the fantasy statement stuff, it does not help this discussion at all.
WHAT? How is that one iota different than the reality right this moment?
Entrenched in what? apathetic members' minds? Please explain
AMA "covers" what? Please explain the specifics of, "all that", you have failed to name one thing that might fall under, "all that".
Astro
03-03-2021, 07:01 AM
#90
I have been enjoying this conversation and its (mostly) civil and productive tone. I have learned a few things and I hope I have added to the conversation in a constructive way.
I will be off-line for a bit here for personal reasons (and not by choice
) but I am looking forward to rejoining the discussion in a week or two.
I will be off-line for a bit here for personal reasons (and not by choice
) but I am looking forward to rejoining the discussion in a week or two.
03-03-2021, 07:06 AM
#91
Banned
As Echo24 said, "there is no denying how big and entrenched AMA has become".
Any guess as to how many other Non-Profits are bigger? Let's start with the NRA.
Or how about the number of corporations employing more than the 200,000 the AMA claims for membership?
And yet, even at 200,000 the AMA has only 20% of the total sUAS pilots registered with the FAA. And if you think the FAA and other govie types haven't noticed this, would you care to purchase a Bridge? I have a fine one for sale in Brooklyn!
Any guess as to how many other Non-Profits are bigger? Let's start with the NRA.
Or how about the number of corporations employing more than the 200,000 the AMA claims for membership?
And yet, even at 200,000 the AMA has only 20% of the total sUAS pilots registered with the FAA. And if you think the FAA and other govie types haven't noticed this, would you care to purchase a Bridge? I have a fine one for sale in Brooklyn!
03-03-2021, 07:14 AM
#92
As Echo24 said, "there is no denying how big and entrenched AMA has become".
Any guess as to how many other Non-Profits are bigger? Let's start with the NRA.
Or how about the number of corporations employing more than the 200,000 the AMA claims for membership?
And yet, even at 200,000 the AMA has only 20% of the total sUAS pilots registered with the FAA. And if you think the FAA and other govie types haven't noticed this, would you care to purchase a Bridge? I have a fine one for sale in Brooklyn!
Any guess as to how many other Non-Profits are bigger? Let's start with the NRA.
Or how about the number of corporations employing more than the 200,000 the AMA claims for membership?
And yet, even at 200,000 the AMA has only 20% of the total sUAS pilots registered with the FAA. And if you think the FAA and other govie types haven't noticed this, would you care to purchase a Bridge? I have a fine one for sale in Brooklyn!
03-03-2021, 07:23 AM
#93
Astro
03-03-2021, 07:28 AM
#94
Senior Member
As Echo24 said, "there is no denying how big and entrenched AMA has become".
Any guess as to how many other Non-Profits are bigger? Let's start with the NRA.
Or how about the number of corporations employing more than the 200,000 the AMA claims for membership?
And yet, even at 200,000 the AMA has only 20% of the total sUAS pilots registered with the FAA. And if you think the FAA and other govie types haven't noticed this, would you care to purchase a Bridge? I have a fine one for sale in Brooklyn!
Any guess as to how many other Non-Profits are bigger? Let's start with the NRA.
Or how about the number of corporations employing more than the 200,000 the AMA claims for membership?
And yet, even at 200,000 the AMA has only 20% of the total sUAS pilots registered with the FAA. And if you think the FAA and other govie types haven't noticed this, would you care to purchase a Bridge? I have a fine one for sale in Brooklyn!
03-03-2021, 07:30 AM
#95
Senior Member
Can anyone cite an AMA club who's ditched AMA and gone on their own?
Has anyone tried to find insurance for a non-affiliated RC club on leased land?
Has anyone tried to find insurance for a non-affiliated RC club on leased land?
Last edited by ECHO24; 03-03-2021 at 07:34 AM.
03-03-2021, 07:31 AM
#96
Really? That's funny, none of that stuff existed when guys used to carve their own props, yet the hobby has thrived! It is a backwards narrative that American's have blindly adopted as our lives became ridiculously easy, "Bigger is better". It is simply not always true.
I agree that we tend to have things way too easy today, but then our grandparents probably said the same about our parents, and so on all the way back to the days of the cave man
03-03-2021, 07:31 AM
#97
With regard to growth, our hobby is highly dependent on specialty products obtained from hobby manufactures. This includes electronics (like radios, receivers, motor controllers, servos), power systems (gas, nitro, brushless motors), consumables (like nitro fuel, LiPo batteries), specialty tools (like battery chargers and covering irons) unique and hard to fabricate items (like props, EDF units, retracts, wheels, other unique hardware), specialty construction materials (like covering film, balsa) and of course the ubiquitous ARFs that make up the bulk of what is flown today.
If there are not enough people consuming these goods, the hobby industry dries up and these items become harder and harder to acquire. True enough that some of these items have other applications and may still be available through other sources, but the availability may be limited (you may have to buy from a primary source in large quantities) and the costs would jump. Specialty items (like props and retracts) are likely to be almost impossible to come by at an affordable price.
Even just to maintain the industry at its current level, we need to keep new entrants coming into the hobby every day, because every day some number of people age out, loses interest, or just becomes too busy. More to the point, the industry itself needs to actually grow to survive (a plain fact of business life is that companies that are not growing are dying). So growth is necessary to have a vibrant hobby industry that enables us to have a vibrant hobby.
A slow decline and slow death may be OK for many of us old farts who will age out over the next decade or so, but for the future, the hobby needs new blood and growth (regardless of what happens to the AMA).
If there are not enough people consuming these goods, the hobby industry dries up and these items become harder and harder to acquire. True enough that some of these items have other applications and may still be available through other sources, but the availability may be limited (you may have to buy from a primary source in large quantities) and the costs would jump. Specialty items (like props and retracts) are likely to be almost impossible to come by at an affordable price.
Even just to maintain the industry at its current level, we need to keep new entrants coming into the hobby every day, because every day some number of people age out, loses interest, or just becomes too busy. More to the point, the industry itself needs to actually grow to survive (a plain fact of business life is that companies that are not growing are dying). So growth is necessary to have a vibrant hobby industry that enables us to have a vibrant hobby.
A slow decline and slow death may be OK for many of us old farts who will age out over the next decade or so, but for the future, the hobby needs new blood and growth (regardless of what happens to the AMA).
I have to admit, you are starting to sound like the AMA shill from another forum that you were accused of being. Please don't bring that crap here, it is just not conducive to productive conversations!
03-03-2021, 07:38 AM
#100
You state this whole narrative as if it is factual. It is not. It may be your opinion (would still be factually incorrect, but everyone is entitled to believe what they want, right or wrong!), but the way you have presented it, it is stated as facts and that is very important when discussing issues via forums that rely solely on the written word to grasp the intent of the author.
I have to admit, you are starting to sound like the AMA shill from another forum that you were accused of being. Please don't bring that crap here, it is just not conducive to productive conversations!
I have to admit, you are starting to sound like the AMA shill from another forum that you were accused of being. Please don't bring that crap here, it is just not conducive to productive conversations!
With regard to presenting my opinions, I certainly would be happy to add a disclaimer. I am not aware of anything that I posted that is "factually incorrect", but am open to hearing what those might be.