I think you're missing it. I used the airline club as a metaphor.

I buy a membership with the airline for the privilege of being able to join the specific club at the airport near my home. I also have to pay additional money to join that specific club at my airport. The club at the airport near my house offers PB&J sandwiches, juice boxes, bean bag chairs, and porta potties. My sister, who lives somewhere else, pays that same amount to the same airline for the privilege of joining the local club at the airport near her home. That local club offers air conditioned spaces, massage chairs, hot sandwiches, variety of beverages, and private bathrooms with showers. We both pay the same to the airline for the privilege of joining the local club, but there's a vast difference in the amenities at those local clubs.

As I said, the strongest reason for joining the AMA is for the privilege of then being able to pay to join the local club. The problem is those clubs have vastly different amenities. And just because there's fewer amenities, doesn't mean lower price. I wonder if there's even statistical correlation. I doubt it, but could be wrong. Point is, there should be some base level amenities regardless of club ... as that's the strongest selling point for the AMA "gatekeeper" membership fee.

How is it that everyone seems to be missing your point?

Astro

Dues vary from local club to local club. Clubs typically have a very open and transparent budgeting process and members know exactly how their dues relate to the amenities they enjoy. Clubs can spend as much or as little as the membership desires to make their club what they want it to be. The AMA membership has nothing to do with local club operations so I have zero expectations about what the AMA "stamp of approval" might mean when it comes to club amenities. In truth, the only thing the AMA is providing (and this is provided consistently) is insurance. Of course, the AMA is also now providing FRIA application support.

None of this compares even remotely to buying into a national franchise, like an airline club, where I am buying the service directly from the airline and the airline itself is responsible for the operation of the facility at each airport to deliver that service. I am not buying a club membership from the AMA. I am buying the club membership from the local club and the local club requires me to be an AMA member in order to have insurance.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with the topic of the thread

now, just how many times have we been told, when commenting on the disparity between club(field) facilities, that the AMA only has one field, and that the rest are all independent club operations.

so just how does the org have so many site for members to use all of a sudden, and don't even consider all the clubs that have club members only use, except for special events a few times a tear.

All of the happy talk about it not being a franchise and clubs can spend as much or as little avoids the key point - the AMA member's club "experience" is vastly different depending on location. Again, there are "haves" as a result of their AMA due and "have nots" who pay the same dues. I don't think it's supportable to even say that clubs where members pay more have better facilities. Regardless, a quality facility close to where members live is a much better selling point for AMA than "Taj-Muncie" which I think data will show that most members never use.

But hey, if it's such a great business model, we should see that in AMA's club revenue and event trends. Unfortunately, both are declining (as is AMA's membership revenue). Perhaps it's time to change the business model. It has the advantage of having never been tried. But of course, that would mean spending less on the HQ staff's private flight facility.

I guess what aymodeler is saying is that there are many private clubs to choose from. One may choose a simple, cheaper option, or one may choose to find a fancy, more deluxe offering that costs more. The only common thing amongst all those clubs, is that you must first pay your vig to the AMA before you enjoy the privileges of said clubs. In that, he finds value. Just like the shopkeeper in NYC that says he finds value in paying Vinnie every week in order that his shop doesn't burn down....

I think I get it now!

Astro

What has Flite Test got to offer? More scrutiny by the FAA and Congress. Every video they post violates one of the main protections of true hobbyists - YOU CAN'T MAKE MONEY, EVEN ON VIDEOS. They may claim they are posting the videos for fun, but they are advertising their products! CBO? Give me a break.

Flite Test is a 501 (c)(3) compliant organization, and must be so in order to meet the requirements of an FAA recognized CBO. This does not mean that they cannot have income....

Astro

That's close, but I think of it more like a tax than an extortion fee (although some would say there is no difference there!).

As I have stated before, I do find at least some value in my AMA membership fee. I would need to buy insurance somewhere/somehow and I know of no other options that would offer me a significant savings over my AMA dues. And while I know you do not share this opinion, I do find value in the AMA's representation of the hobby in Washington. Now before we go back down that particular rabbit hole, I do understand and respect that you see it differently and I am OK with that. It is your right and your choice. I also know that there is nothing either of us could possibly say that would change the other's mind, so I suggest we just agree to disagree on this. My only ask is that you extend the same courtesy back of respecting my choice and avoid the snarky belittling remarks that seem to be so abundantly used by all sides on this forum

That said, I also do firmly believe that the AMA could deliver those benefits to me much more efficiently than they are currently doing it. I know they are wasting at least some of my money on things that I do not care about or doing things inefficiently. But in the end, I still feel that it is a relatively small price to pay in order to be able to enjoy the hobby.

I've never disrespected anyone's opinion here, unless, of course, it just isn't factual. That is where these threads get derailed. Here are some facts that I base my opinions on:

- The AMA magazine continues to lose million$ of member dollars every year
- The insurance offered by the AMA costs less than half of what dues are
- AMA Executive salaries continue to grow, despite the organization shrinking and losing money.
- AMA executives have used the magazine as a propaganda tool to further personal gains and favorable election results.

Here are some observances that are more subjective than objective that I base my opinions on:
- AMA executives virtually ignored the concerns presented by long-time members and industry professionals, which have proven to be very accurate
- AMA executives have used the magazine as a personal propaganda tool to affect elections
- AMA executives do not seem open to any dialogue voiced from membership that questions or criticizes AMA operations, creating an uncomfortable environment for members who voice concerns. This not only creates division amongst the membership, it virtually squelches any growth, change and/or different approaches that may be beneficial to the entire membership.

It is for these reasons, and others, that I believe there is diminishing value to AMA membership and that its relevance is not what it was when I joined many decades ago.

Regards,

Astro

Thought I'd help by filling in some of the facts to show the doubters everything you presented as facts are demonstrably true:

Over the period CY2002 to CY2020, in constant year dollars, Model Aviation Revenue - Model Aviation Expenses has resulted in a loss of more than $32 million. And over the last five years in that period, it's LOST no less than $700,000 each and every year.


Over the same period above, CY2002 to CY2020, the insurance expense averages 18.5% of what AMA collects from membership revenue.


ver the same CY2002 to CY2020 period, in constant year dollars, executive compensation INCREASED 157.0%.
Meanwhile, membership revenue DECREASED 27.9% and net assets DECREASED by 21.1% over the same period.


It was Hanson and Cameron who used their columns in MA to oppose Tougas when Tougas challenged Cameron for the EVP position.

I agree that many of the points you raise are valid concerns, I have said as much in the past. However, I also still do think that there is value in flying at a club field, and by extension, being an AMA member. Like most things, the value of the AMA cannot be described in all black or all white terms and I choose to take the good parts of the AMA along with the bad. I also applaud efforts to bring about change, at least when those efforts are truly constructive.

Finally, I also think this horse is sufficiently beaten into the ground

I agree that the horse is long dead. I specifically asked what Flite Test has to offer. I’m not surprised that some chose to ignore the original question and played the same old broken record. Franklin at least answered the question in that he has to pay zero club dues. He is not wrong but isn’t that the same thing he was doing before FT became a recognized CBO?

and i told ya,
if ya want to know what FT actually has to offer, ya gotta sak where there are flight test members available to answer.

asking here in the ama forum, just gets made up answers and suppositions.

You do realize that a couple regulars have boasted about how great FT is, this is their chance to explain why. So far nothing tangible.

it does not matter what a non member states about it, the only folks that can say what they see great about it, with authority, are the members.

Wouldn’t the same apply for those not currently AMA members in this forum?

that is exactly what some keep telling us.

Well maybe I’ll just post some Videos of unsafe behavior.

Unsafe? Please expound...

Another one.

LOL. How is that any more, "unsafe" than a typical day at a typical flying field?

Gee speedy, can we blame the Hodges B29 crash on flite test too ?


Maybe we can spend the rest of the thread playing dueling crashes, FT member VS AMA member crashes......

When ya go slingin mud, don't expect to come out squeaky clean

Any Flite test members here? .......

(Skip to 2:49)

Init, I just feel that if we are going to call out one CBO for safety issues we should apply the same criteria to all CBO’s. That said, FT are posting unsafe practices on their You tube channel. An impressionable youth can easily assume that these practices are OK.