In just about every other facet of politics there are term limits imposed on the higher level leadership. This prevents a dictatorial society from arising. Why is it that the AMA our "democratic" orginization does not also have term limits?

David,
The standard response you'll get is there is term limits-each election. Of course it's BS because there is so little participation in the election process that incumbents will almost always stay in power. This is of course the reason to have term limits, to keep the organization vibrant and moving forward in site of member apathy.
Amazing isn't it, the President of the US is limited to two terms, the President of AMA can serve as many terms as he likes.
The bad news is DB doesn't seem to be retiring from the Presidency any time soon.
Oh well, no one on the EC is going to vote for term limits anyway.
Regards,
Jon

Jon

Why don't you contact the VP's and see what they think of the idea, and let us know if what you stated is correct.

JR

Term limits force people out of the gravy train that is politics. The #1 job of a politician is to get reelected.

J_R,
I did just that this morning. I've e-mailed all the elected officials, except Dist 1 which doesn't have an e-mail address, to survey their opinion on term limits and the reasons for their position.
I'll post whatever results I get.
Jon

I would have to agree that term limits would be a good thing.
Even in our local club we have term limits.
I think I'll shoot off some emails myself tonight.

Term Limits.
Nothin but a Good Idea.

Hi everyone,
I've gotten a lot of replies from my little unscientific survey. I'll post an overview tomorrow to give the rest time to reply, but basically it breaks down into 3 categories:
Those that are opposed
Those that want them but feel that a good person would have to leave and finding a replacement would be difficult
Those that are in favor.
The consensus is a limit of 3 cosecutive terms.
I'll go into more detail tomorrow.
Jon

useing the consecutive terms option is just a way to pass the office between 2 good ole boys.
if ya push this it needs to be a lifetime limit of terms in any one elected office.

Hi Jon

I would like to make a public apology to you. I have, on occasion, challenged things you have posted because I felt they were not factual. I am impressed. You have the guts to find out what the facts are and post them. Most simply leave. This is not the first time you have done it. You have my respect. Thanks for the effort, I am looking forward to your final report.

JR

While I am in favor of nearly everything you and David propose, "term limits" is not one of them.

I consider it BS that so few participate in the election process and that something has to be dropped on a toe to get attention to what is, and has been for years, going on at AMA under the reign of Lowe & Brown. It seems that so few pay attention until they get a direct slap in the face. THAT SIR is BS, big time.

Term limit is up to the VOTERS, and if those that have a concern cannot get off their centers to swing the vote for concerns perceived, or desired, then the concerned are simply trying to pass the buck.

As much flack as I have received from "voters" and as many elections as I have lost, I still hold only the voters responsible for not paying attention and myself for being unable motivate those voters. Term limits are simply a cop-out.

It is true in the end of his final legislated term, a person becomes a lame duck, and those against him simply try to delay everything until the LD is gone. Nothing of value gets accomplished. If one tries to initiate a worthwhile project it gets hosed into committee, another DB ploy to kill what he doesn't like.

All the above (except DB but JW, the ED then a voting EC member) contributed to the final reason that I resigned in the last year of my second term as a D-VI VP. After the part I played in obtaining the final FCC release of the 50 freqs., and with the EC in-fighting, I knew I could not do anything more of significance, so I got the _ell out of Dodge.

Term Limits should be accomplished by an enlightened constituency at the polls, not by the legislature getting rid of the senior guys and their projects. Enlightenment of the constituency is the job of those with concerns.

Still claiming credit for the frequencies eh?

I am probably one of the most dedicated members in District V in trying to unseat the incumbent (with over a quarter of a century of ineptness). There are two things I don't want to see. 1) Him legislated out and 2), Or Mother Nature intervening. I want to see the members OF district V wise up and take care of “THEIR� problem . . as Dave Brown so aptly puts it.

Term limits are for wimpy electorates - club, local, state, or national!


Red Scholefield
District V
Leader Member

Hi Everyone,
First I would like to thank all the DVP’s and Dave Brown for taking the time to respond to my e-mails. The DVP certainly didn’t have to respond since I’m not in their districts. And, to be fair, even though I’m very critical of DB, he did respond quickly, which really surprised me. In fact, all those that did reply to my e-mails did so in less than an hour after they were sent.
Here are the results of my little survey:
I e-mailed all VP’s except D1, which didn’t have an e-mail address, Doug Holland and Dave Brown. I got responses from everyone except Dist 4, 5 and 9, and Doug Holland.
The only person who responded they way I thought the majority would was Bill Oberdieck, DVII who feels that each election is a “term limit�.
The rest of the VP’s, and DB are in favor of term limits and 3 terms was the length mentioned most. However, the problem they all have with term limits is finding someone qualified to fill the VP’s position once the incumbent has to leave office since there is not a lot of people seeking office in many of the districts. The concern is that a qualified VP would be required to leave with no qualified person to take his place. In many districts it’s very difficult to find volunteers for the various positions, including AVP and the VP position. This concern is justified by the fact that only about 15% of the membership even takes the time to vote. In addition, many of the replies stated the amount of time spent on AMA business and the out of pocket money necessary to do the job as VP, further reducing the incentive to serve. Here in DII we don’t have that problem, as there seems to be enough volunteers, and I’m sure this applies to some other districts as well, but it is a major concern in many districts.
DB’s concern for the Office of President is a candidate running for office without the necessary qualifications/vision of seeing the “big picture� versus a narrow focus of ideas/issues that are important to him. He feels that one of the most important attributes that the President must have is the ability to prevent the EC from becoming “a house divided upon its self� and that type of person is not easy to find.
He has stated in the past, and still feels that the EC should elect a chairman from within its ranks and re-name the position of President to Chairman of the Board. He would re-name the current Executive Director position to President. He also feels that the EVP is the most important position within AMA, and with all the qualifications necessary to carry out the job, it should not be an elected position but a person appointed by EC.
To summarize:
1. I had an excellent response from the leadership of the AMA to my questions.
2. There needs to be a by-laws change before this can take effect.
3. Most members of the EC and DB favor term limits. However, before they can become reality the issue of finding suitable volunteers willing to serve on the EC needs to be addressed. Not an easy problem to solve!
4. The limit should be three consecutive terms
5. DB and several members of the EC feel it’s time to re-vamp the selection of the President and EVP to better reflect the realities that face the AMA today.
In closing I would especially like to thank Dave Mathewson for spending the time on the phone discussing this issue with me.
Regards,
Jon

PS. J_R, no problem. After all is said and done, after we get away from the darn computer, we're all modelers pursuing what we like best, building and flying!

I second the motion for term limits!

I think we, AMA membership, should ban together and bring the vote on term limits to the table. I'm not sure how many members it would take to get this on the table, but like all other incorporated entities, it should be stated in the Articles, Declarations, or By-Laws.

I've seen great things come from the new board at my local AMA Club. And I must admit, at first I thought the club was going to not benefit, but in the end we benefited greatly. And the new ideas that come from fresh people in office can be good for the membership as a whole. And who needs someone making a career as President of our organization.

JR Gautreaux

It looks like I am in the manority for term limits. So I'm willing to change my position.

Term limits will only be applied when there is a viable and qualified candidate running against the incumbent.

I'll leave how we determine who is viable and qualified for another thread. :-)

Red S.
District V
Leader Member

Hi Red

As you know, I was of the opinion that term limits were not a good idea, for the same reason you state. In talking to one VP, who is currently running unopposed, he felt strongly that term limits are desirable. He stated that he knew several people that would run, but, did not want to run against him, and a few that were afraid they could not beat him.

I know, in talking to Sandy Frank last year, that he stated that in the first term you learned the job, in the second, you did it and in the third you started to get burned out on it. Bruce Nelson, who was also there agreed.

Maybe it's time to rethink the issue, as you stated.

jetflyer

When you get some time, take a look through the current AMA bylaws. There is no mechanism, regardless of the number of members, to force any issue to a vote. As Bill Oberdieck has said, the one and only right of an AMA member is to vote for the elected officers.

JR

in the real world, the US lost a leader and gained a monkey. Term limit was a bad thing there. better elections might be a better way. The UK population got bored of Tory rule after 18 years when a better person came along, wonder what will happen this time.
The guy at the top isn't always bad, forced stand down isn't always the best option..

and no i'm not supporting your top guy.

Any person afraid to run for an office because he might NOT win is NOT worth having in the office. How will he stand up against the vocal minority that will intimidate such person to right down under the table into a fetal position?
Any such statement is purely political rubbish from the incumbent.

If Sandy is going to be "burned-out" then why has he campaigned for reelection so heavily? If he is too burned-out or soon will be, then what is the ulterior motivation to continue? Did he explain that to you. Again, pure garbage. How would B. Nelson know? He hasn't been there that long? I rather observe from his statement that perhaps he sees several *Burned-Out* bodies there that don't take the job very seriously other than being Big-Man-on-Campus when they are on local flying facilities.

NOW TO F106A: Sir, if this copied from your text below is NEWS to you, where have you been the past 20 years? This is all old hat stuff. Nothing new. But then I suppose to some, many things go unnoticed, like my wife's list of chores that I avoid so very well.

>>>>>DB’s concern for the Office of President is a candidate running for office without the necessary qualifications/vision of seeing the “big picture� versus a narrow focus of ideas/issues that are important to him. He feels that one of the most important attributes that the President must have is the ability to prevent the EC from becoming “a house divided upon its self� and that type of person is not easy to find.
He has stated in the past, and still feels that the EC should elect a chairman from within its ranks and re-name the position of President to Chairman of the Board. He would re-name the current Executive Director position to President. He also feels that the EVP is the most important position within AMA, and with all the qualifications necessary to carry out the job, it should not be an elected position but a person appointed by EC.
To summarize:
1. I had an excellent response from the leadership of the AMA to my questions.
2. There needs to be a by-laws change before this can take effect.
3. Most members of the EC and DB favor term limits. However, before they can become reality the issue of finding suitable volunteers willing to serve on the EC needs to be addressed. Not an easy problem to solve!
4. The limit should be three consecutive terms
5. DB and several members of the EC feel it’s time to re-vamp the selection of the President and EVP to better reflect the realities that face the AMA today.
In closing I would especially like to thank Dave Mathewson for spending the time on the phone discussing this issue with me.
Regards,
Jon
<<<<<<<<<<

All such reorganization would simply provide the PAID EMPLOYEE, Ex. Director, a prevailing position on the Board. Then the Board would appoint the Chief Financial Officer which would do the Board's bidding and that would be a cozy little nest (not that it is any different now) however for certain it would all be tied in ribbons and bows then.

Have I recently asked you about your possible interest in some Arizona Sea Shore lush green property? Good deal and I'll GIVE YOU MY WORD for cash in advance!

Horrace,
J_R challenged me to get the facts of a previous post of mine. I accepted and conducted a survey of AMA management about term limits and reported the results for anyone that's interested. I'm not supporting anyone's ideas. I know that Dave Mathewson proposed a motion on term limits recently and it was tabled for future consideration. I also know that one VP, not sure which one, my notes are at work, proposed the same thing several years ago and it didn't go anywhere; at least it's a subject that's "hovering around" the EC. When and if it's going to "land", I haven't a clue.
Regards,
Jon

Jon

In spite of the fact that the term limit proposals have been tabled in the past, the opportunity will be there when the by-laws are revised. Any of the proposals, such as the nominating process or term limits are likely to be integrated into one by-laws change. The by-laws committee is chaired by Rich Hanson. It has been a 'work in progress' for quite some time. I would not expect any submission of a by-laws change to the leader members in the immediate future.

One item I absolutely agree with is the idea of elimination of the EVP as a political position. I think the chances of us getting a high caliber CPA as a CFO volunteer will be greatly increased by removing the need to go through the political process. If such a volunteer were to be selected by our elected representives, we would have more control over his actions than when he is elected, as is now the case. It also insures that we get someone that is capable of doing the job. There seems to be no downside to this idea, unless you believe such an individual will rob us.

Not everyone thinks the world of elected volunteers if full of theives and conspirators. I suppose that there is an exception to everything.

JR

I am for term limits and I think the reason you see so few people wanting to run is the fact you dont have but a small percentage voting and we all know the encumabt is usually going to win. I mean how often do they get voted out most of the time is them stepping down. So I feel if there were term limits then you would be seeing more people willing to take the time and campaign and try for an office. But until them most of the time they are just gonna be blowing smoke.

Joe Huntley
USSMA Midwest Reg. MGR
http://home.mchsi.com/~ussmamidwest/

Jon

Once again, nice job. Good report. I had talked to a few of them, so knew that there would be at least a couple in favor of term limits. I had no idea about the rest.

Doug Holland, the EVP has made it clear that he does not type well, and does not respond to e-mails. He does answer his phone. I am sure he does some e-mails to communicate with the council, but it is not his thing. I have never had him avoid a call or even not be there to answer one.

D5... Anyone that thought Jim McNiel was going to answer anything about term limits has his head in the sand.

Bliss Teague and Russ Miller are camera shy. I wonder if they will respond eventually. I think Rus is constantly afraid of being reamed on the internet. Bliss is newer, but, no longer so new that he can hide behind that excuse.

You know, Dave Mathewson seems to communicate as well, or better than, Rich Hanson, my VP. Rich is a little left coast oriented, but, a really good VP. Mathewson seems to be really well balanced and a good VP . I wonder if it is time to start proding Mathewson to run for President?

Wes de Cou, the previous D2 VP before Mathewson was a good VP. He handles the western states with Flying Site Assistance now, another good choice to run for President.

If Dave Brown runs again, it would be wonderful to see Mathewson and De Cou run as well. If Dave choses not to run, Hanson would make a good third choice.

You can expect that Cain and Frank will have their name put into nomination as well.

In your post to Horrace Cain, you professed no opinion about a political issue. If the JPO guys, or the 3D guys, or any other group wants change, it is time to start thinking about who you want to back and start developing opinions. Suddenly, you have seen what it means to not have the support you would like to have on the EC when an issue about your interest is on the table. It is no time to walk away. You, and every other member are going to have to become involved in the process if you truly want change. Every VP position is important, even if it is not your personal district.

This years election is over, it is time to start looking to next year. If you don't know the personalities, or their positions, how will you know who to elect next year?

JR

Thank you JR. At last a very wise and good recommendation from you. Regardless of the view, get some people to lobby and vote. Therein lies the power.

Wes de Cou, good man. Ex Navy fighter jock. (Wonder about those guys that want to fly off those short mobile airports? Give me 12,000 ft. of fixed runway any day!) Just recently enjoyed a long talk with him, face to face. One thing I learned is that even I can't drink that man under the table. WOW!

Hanson; Why the long delay with the Bylaws changes? Think perhaps someone doesn't really want any changes? Like DB for instance?

NOTE TO JETFLYER: YOU SAID, "I think we, AMA membership, should ban together and bring the vote on term limits to the table. I'm not sure how many members it would take to get this on the table, but like all other incorporated entities, it should be stated in the Articles, Declarations, or By-Laws."

Yes there is a road to the EC for changes to Bylaws. Art. XV, 20 members can initiate a proposal, and as I said, post # 11, it will die in committee. Like JR said, it cannot be forced. Still, you can say, "We asked and you ignored. This ballot is pay-back."

CONCERNING NOMINATION PROCEDURES: The use of either Leader Members, Club Presidents or whatever could be accomplished without any change to the Bylaws. The EC simply has to request nominations from Leader and/or Open members serving as Club Presidents and in the NC Meeting, they (EC/NM) could weight those nominations as they so desired.
Other Ldr/Open members could also submit nominations as per the Bylaws. The final selections would be by the NC as defined in Art. IX.
Of course the above would require some additional work, and need to be initiated prior to the day before the meeting. [>:]