J_R

troll

I can not give you an absolute answer, just my opinion.

Most states do not allow liability claims within a family due to the potential for fraud. That's a law. HOWEVER, taking the second instance you site, IF your daughter were to sue you, the club, and the landlord, for negligence, you might be afforded no coverage, but the club and landlord would. Just my opinion.

The safety code has been modified to state that coverage MAY not be in place if there is a violation. Remember, the landlord is not subject to the safety code.

Edited: in the third case, Carl Maroney stated that you would be covered in an e-mail I posted on this forum.

FHHuber

with the way J_R's last reply read... I had to look at Troll's post to see what was going on. (I still like to ignore Troll most of the time)

The AMA has a personal injury section to the policy... it covers actual medical care cost to a member who sticks his own hand in his own airplane's prop. So you'd have some medical coverage at least in cases 1 and 3. Liability damages beyond acttual medical care costs or above that medical care portion's limits... ?????

Its one of those places the [:'(]lawyers[:'(] would have to hash out on case 2... my bet is the AMA would help with the actual medical bills. (even if the [:'(]lawyers[:'(] said they didn't have to.) Lets just hope we never have to deal with something like that.

I don't remember for sure offhand... I THINK its $10K medical coverage for AMA member when operating a model causes an injury. (I also forget if this is a primary or "excess" coverage.)

J_R

the troll

The more I look at our last exchange, the less I like it. Some questions on AMA coverage are cut and dry. Some, like yours, call for opinions. The truth of the matter is that asking Carl Maroney is a much better solution than asking me, or anyone else. Carl is not given to answering "what if" questions, and I am beginning to understand why. There are so many variables that it is impossible to address them all.

I have given you my opinions on your questions, but I would not rely on those opinions.

Todd Jackson

My Feedback: (6)

[>:]ALL IN ALL MY OPINON OF THE AMA IS THAT ITS NOT WORTH THE PAPER ITS ON ...AND THATS THE BOTTOM LINE...

TODD......

Hossfly

Troll, I carry about as much additional insurance as I find prudent. I cover myself, my family, most of my assets, thus my wife's future and some considerations for the kids, should I become less than I am.

OTOH, if I should be injured by some uninsured (*censored*) who is too cheap to buy AMA's very economical liability in order to assure that those he just might do some injury to, while he amuses himself with toy airplanes, are reasonably protected via compensation for such injury as they may suffer, then that person will forever rue his decision to take the risk. He will find it to be one very bad fiscal decision on his part.

The liability insurance I maintain protects others. I expect the same protection from them. For those that find that policy harsh, then I suggest they find a different whatever to suck on. The policy stands.

While few people with any real knowledge of the Insurance Claims Investigation business ever find their way to this forum, out there around there are a number of those that do. There is a very knowledgeable one in Jetero RC. He's a walking encyclopedia of info. I have found several loopholes in some of my thinking.[] However as JR stated here somewhere, it all boils down to a one on one and the individual policies and the exclusions defined therein.

Specific "what-if" questions asked here are simply a waste of time and space plus a public display of a lack of perceptional knowledge of the subject.

edited to add an i.

Horrace

abel_pranger

Diff'rnt strokes, Hoss. If that floats your boat it's okay by me, but I buy liability insurance to protect me. I'm just not even slightly altruistic about paying the premium for a $2M PUP for the benefit of sombody that sues me, and of course his lawyer(s).

Abel

bhole74

I would highly recommend you not to visit any private or non-AMA fields if you're affraid you will get hurt. You may also want to consider not driving either, there are uninsured motorist out there.
AMA is not the only type of insurance available, however, AMA does refuse to acknowledge it until something does happen. Then your other insurance does come first. This is what some people have a problem with, AMA doesn't want you to fly unless you pay THEM.
As for the "what ifs", I agree they are a waste of time, so stop throwing them out there.

FHHuber

If you REALLY feel that way... [>:]You don't want liability insurance.. you want insurance that pays you in case someone else injures you...and you can sign a release that says you'll never sue anyone else, for ANY reason, and file it in every state.[>:]

FHHuber

The AMA knows there's other insurance out there...

Do you want the job of comparing the coverages and keeping track of hte insurance for every member of the local club? Making sure thier coverage is adequate. Making sure it is paid to date and is actually valid. (every week because you'd have policies expiring or with monthly payments or... people paying for one month and getting an insurance card, then dropping the policy and maybe even getting a refund... like some do for auto-registration purposes...)

Individual equivilent coverage (if you can find it...) would be extraordinarilly expensive. Group insurance is cheap. That's a fact of life in the world of insurance.

PLEASE... find an equivilent coverage for under $100 a year. Just try. (good luck.) Don't forget to include ALL of the coverages...

And get rid of the "Safety Code" rules you don't want to follow. (then try to get it for under $1000 a year)

The AMA card is SIMPLE. They have the card... they have the coverage and you know what it is.

abel_pranger

FH-
You really haven't ever dealt with anyone in the insurance business, have you? If you ever meet up with one, ask him why he has liability insurance.

Abel

FHHuber

You're the one who basicly said to hell with everyone else.... I just pointed it right back at you.

abel_pranger

Oh. Good one, FH. You buy life insurance so you won't die, right?

Abel

J_R

Abel

Everyone else knew what you said. Skip it.

abel_pranger

Jr-
Roger that.

Abel

yard-dart

My Feedback: (35)

Just reading over some of the posts left since my last RCU visit. I still don't have a real good answer to my question.

1) If a person has homeowners insurance, other than paying for a crappy magazine and being given the right to participate in clubs and club events, why does that person need to give the crappy AMA their money?

2) I think that public post of claims paid by the AMA is a crock! Do you suckers think this is real? Sure, they're going to butter it up a bit and show some claims still in limbo, but I would be willing to bet that what they post is no where near legit! Just goes to show some people believe everything they read.

3) I said it before and I'll say it again, the AMA is getting filthy rich off of us who are paying their dues. Think about how many modelers are paying that fee. Think about how many of those modelers are probably homeowners with insurance. You can't tell me that the AMA is paying out very much! I know that not all modelers are homeowners, but I would say that the majority are.

4) What do we do, those of us that know the facts, those of us who care about getting a service we're paying for? How can we be able to tell the AMA to shove it up their ***. We should be able to get some sort of card/pass saying that we have insurance and we would like to fly at any club or event.

5) As for that nice big new AMA headquarters building, museum?, and airfield..... I couldn't care two rat's asses less about that! I'll never darken their doors or set foot on the airfield and I'm willing to bet that 90% of all paying members never will either! So, yes, our money is being spent in a manner that is of no inerest to us! They try to use that to say that it's for us, the modelers, when in fact a ton of the excess money is being profited by the AMA.


Guys, I could go on and on about this. Some of you agree and some disagree. I think too many believers of the AMA can't see the forest because of the trees! Come on people, I know that all modelers need insurance of some sort, but it needs to be a primary insurance, one that will be the first to pay a claim. That's my whole point, if I have an accident and my primary insurance foots the bill, what am I paying the AMA for?

John

the troll

HE doesn't need to at all


YES

No guestion... no answer


Are you serious? Heck even AMA card holders can't fly at any club or event.

fair enough

yes you can

so what's new?


Hmmm... you will have to tell us.

John
[/quote]

J_R

Yard-dart

I do hate to disillusion you, but, you are not the fist to come into this forum with the same list. It has happened at least once a month since the forum began.

If you are an AMA member, you can get to the audited financial statements of the AMA in the Members Only Section. If not, too bad. The CPA firm that did the audit does exist.

Your claims about the truth of statements fall into the same type of beliefs of those who believe that the US never set foot on the moon; that it was all done in a TV studio.

On the other hand, if you have interest in the previous discussions in this forum, start reading. It should take you about a week, full time. When you are done, you will probably maintain your same feelings.

The phrase "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts" seems to apply.

abel_pranger

Because the club you are associated with decided to be an AMA chartered club, and those are the terms of the club charter agreement. If it is an untenable situation for you, look for alternatives. If you could convince a majority of the club members that it's a bad deal, you might get them to drop the AMA charter. You might look around for another place to fly that is not controlled by an AMA club.
I don't have any reason to think it's not legit, though it is of limited informational value. Tends to raise more questions than it answers, but I agree with the AMA spokesperson that most members don't care about the numbers, so it's largely a waste of magazine space and web site bandwidth to present them.
While I don't agree that all expenditures are worthwhile for the majority of members, I have no reason to suspect any individuals in the organization are pocketing our dues money (except for their salary, if in a paid position). Ca nyou be more specific about who is getting rich off us?
This goes back to 1) You have every right to tell AMA to shove it, but when you do you can't expect to play in their sandbox.
Essentially same as 3). See above.
Go reread the posts in reply to your first in the thread. The issue over AMA insurance being primary vs in excess has been answered. To reiterate, if AMA is to be first to pay, ahead of homeowners, then you need to have a HO policy that does not cover operation of model airplanes. There are some that do not, or your agent may be able to have a rider put on your current policy to exclude that coverage.

Abel

lkaras1

My Feedback: (20)

And this is why they make Parkflyers [sm=lol.gif]

abel_pranger

Without a doubt, ikaras. I was guessing off the the top of my head that on the order of 9 out of 10 potential AMA/club members are opting for park flyers instead. Then I saw the numbers that have signed up for the $19.95 intro AMA membership deal that targets the park flyer market, and based on those figures would revise my estimate upward to something on the order of 99 out of 100.

Abel

stalspin-delete

Park Flyers???? is that one of those little green faced things with wings like a Hossfly that you smash at a picnic in a park. Cause if isn't I have never seen any parks that I go to try to take off and fly. Oh well must be missing something.
nite nite, early church in the morning.

dunk-RCU

If you fly even park flyers you don't have a choice... someday there will be an alternative without a beautiful national headquarters and field that we never get to see...

bhole74

FHHuber:

And get rid of the "Safety Code" rules you don't want to follow. (then try to get it for under $1000 a year)




Who ever said anything about not being safe? If you will recall, common sense is one of our rules. This pretty well covers safety. The majority of the guys I fly with have been flying longer than you have been out of diapers. We know what is and is not safe, we just don't think we need somebody looking over our shoulders every time we fly telling us what to do. If you do, maybe you need to find another hobby. There has never been an accident at our field which was more than a finger in a prop, and this happens to people all the time reguardless of whether they are AMA members or not. Also, the purpose of not making AMA manditory is to avoid such politics, if you believe the AMA "Safety Code" is just politics, it is very sad indeed.[&o]

stalspin-delete

Hey Dunk-RC seems CFI A/I AMEL seem important since it is in your signature.
Well I have a few of them as well CFII, ASMELS,Rotor, Glider etc.and been doing that for a few more years than you. (so what, right!)
Do we need a safety Code. For some yes for others common sense works.
But to the uniniated newbie a safety code along with a proper training syllabus would help, RIGHT. I mean would you allow someone to jump into your full scale Cessna 150 and let them attempt to fly it. I don't think so.
My opinion is to review the safety code, bring it up to date. Institute a nation training program for all the venues that apply.
RISK MANAGEMENT, The only true way to manage RISK is to GET RID OF THE RISK.
Logical.

Hossfly

You mean no more flying RC models??????[:@]

That's gonna' make fer one _ell uva swap-shop with all sellers and no buyers. Yeah, ah guess that's logical fer you obodorck.

reminds me uv when the air-farce decided to not provide air-to-air training 'cuz uv the accident rate. Trouble wuz that they paid back with a thousand % interest rate come the south-east asia war games. 'course it warn't them smart decision-makin' brown-nosin' general foul-ups that made the ultimate interest payments. lot o' muh buds paid on that debt.

Ware you wun uv them general foul-ups, stallin' and spinnin', or aor you just wun by nature?