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What's your opinion on the AMA?

Old 04-28-2004, 09:13 AM
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yard-dart
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Default What's your opinion on the AMA?

Here are some posts that I left on another forum. I decided that this forum was suited best for my thoughts. Give me your input.

No. 1
Well, I'm probably going to walk into a room of fire, but here goes. I THINK THE AMA IS A BIG FREAKING JOKE! They are getting filthy assed rich off of us. If it wasn't for being mandatory to join my club, I wouldn't dare join the AMA. From what I've been told, and by people who've been in RC since it was started, they know of very, very few claims that the AMA has paid off on. It is said that trying to get the AMA to pay a claim is like pulling teeth. It is said that they will find something wrong with the layout of the field, something not quite right about the airplane, something the pilot did wrong, simply to keep from paying a claim. So, how many claims are actually made each year? How many are paid? For those that weren't paid, why weren't they paid? I'd like to know the answers to those questions!

I think that each club needs to get their won liability insurance, and say to hell with the AMA. Their monthly magazine sucks compared to others like it. I have yet to talk to another R/C pilot that thinks the AMA is in full support of someone in case of an accident. It's always the same old thing being said, we're paying for insurance that will never hardly pay off!

No.2
in fact have, and while at my club I put my plane through someone's windshield, I dont know if it's my homewoners or AMA that pays off. Like Blaine said, one's homeowners insurance is the primary coverage. So my homeowners pays, right? What about if I didn't have homeowners? Would the AMA foot the bill then? It, AMA, would be the primary insurance then, right? If this is indeed the facts, it seems that there is no need for a person to have to pay for AMA as long as they have homeowners. And, if a person doesn't have homeowners, they would then need AMA coverage, right? Sure, the $58.00 a year I pay for AMA is not going to break me by any means, but what good is it if my homeowners is going to have to pay a claim. What good did the AMA do? Nothing that I can see.

I thought the whole idea behind paying for AMA was to have insurance coverage in case of an accident, regardless if it is at a chartered club, a city park, someone's pasture, or anywhere else for that matter. If the AMA is not going to pay the claim, for whatever the reason may be, what do we pay for, other than to help protect the club we're a part of? What if one is not a member of a club, they're flying in someones pasture, and end up putting a plane through the roof of a house. Does the AMA pay then, or is my homeowners responsible? Again, the same scenario if one doesn't have homeowners? Does the AMA pay off, or does the person then have a civil suit against them?

I'm definately no expert at understanding insurance, as you may have already noticed. I would just like to have piece of mind "KNOWING" that the AMA insurance I pay for each year "WILL" pay off in case of an "ACCIDENT", without affecting my homeowners.

Any input someone could give me to help me understand this subject would be greatly appreciated.

No.3

Thanks for the response guys, I'll check out the forum you mentioned. And you're right Don, it'd be a cold day in hell before I try to get my homeowners involved in something like this. Like I said in one of my previous posts, I've heard of very few accidents that had to have claims filed, but those claims, I heard, were never paid by AMA. They simply would not cover. Sorta seems like one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations. My biggist complaint is that the AMA has got us by the balls. There is no alternative insurance/Company/organization we can turn to. From what I've heard, you dare not try to start up an insurance Co. for anything related to R/C. The AMA will be jumping up and down at the drop of a hat, screaming like a little girl. I heard someone tried to do this once and the AMA had it shot out of the air.

Anyway, my thoughts will remain that the AMA IS A RIP OFF! Think about how many people pay their $58.00 each year, and then think about the AMA doing everything in their power to keep from paying a claim. Where is our money going? It's building nice new AMA headquarters buildings and such. It damn sure isn't going into getting a new writer and editor for their monthly magazine, if that's what they want to call it.

Rant mode still on, but now going to another forum,


Well, to sum it up, I, plus some other RCU/AMA members don't think the AMA is what is all made up to be. Feedback from you would be greatly apprecitated. There may be some light you could shed on the subject to help me get a better attitude about the organization.

Thanks,

John Kennedy
Old 04-28-2004, 11:32 AM
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FHHuber
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

1) Tha ama claims payment record is presented annually. They can't tell you which claims were paid or how much in most cases because the [:'(]Lawyers[:'(] tend to put non-disclosure agreements into the settlements. They do publish the TOTAL amount paid and the total number of claims paid.

As to locating this information on the AMA website... you have to know exactly what you are loooking for to find it.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/templates/ama/insur.asp Is the one I can find in a reasonable amount of searching on "insurance" ::::

AMA's 21-month History of Liability Insurance Settlements, Legal Expenses, and Claim Payments
As of October 1, 2002:
Suit Settlements in 2001 and 2002 (total of 5 litigated claims)

Royal Insurance Co. $550,000
Primary HO $100,000
AMA (SIR) $287,625
Legal Defense Expenses paid by AMA for 2001 and 2002 (total of 16 claims):

$144,600
Insurance Claims paid by AMA for 2001 and 2002 (total of 99 claims):

$ 88,000
There are more complete documents on the site... I just can't remember how to find them.

The AMA's insurance program does pay... You might note it paid more defending against 16 claims than it paid off for 99 (other? or 16 of the 99?) claims in the period shown above.

*************
(misclicked while typing and it took it as I was ready to post)
*************

2) If you have no other insurance... then there is no other insurance to pay first and the AMA insurance becomes the only policy to deal with. AMA insurance is "excess" which is insurance legaleese for saying they are going to try to be the LAST insurance company in any chain of companies that may be involved. When the bill is totaled, anything the other companies did't pay, then the AMA would be paying it if the accident meets the rules for such payment.

You have to have the correct stuff filled out or there won't be a payment. Insurance companies love paperwork.... they'll drown a claim in paperwork. (any insurance company.)

IF any accident occurs... you need to get a police report on it ASAP. That is almost always a requirement of any insurance company. Just tell the police that your insurance company is going to need the report and they will make one out. Failure to do this at the tim of the accident makes it hard to prove there was an accident (as for as the insurance company is concerned... The person claiming they were or thier property was ininjured or damaged will have an easy time. They have the scars or broken stuff.)

You have to have been obeying the AMA safety rules. The AMA made this easier by breaking the rules out of the total book of regulations into the "Safety Code." Rather than having to read trough the entire AMA rulebook and find these things hidden in fine print... you have appx 2 pages of rules that you need to be familiar with. (and none of the ruels are very hard to follow... Stick your name and address in your model and don't be stupid... you probably are following the rules.)

************

In all cases remember one thing... the models are ALWAYS expendable. If it looks like the thing might hit someone... the airplane takes a 200 mph dirt nap to avoid it.
Old 04-28-2004, 11:58 AM
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TimeFLYING
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

I to feel AMA is a HUGE joke!!...... BUT the first time something happen and i had to call on them because it hit something or someone it would make my 58.00 look like a joke. just call it a safety blanket kind of like your car ins.
Old 04-28-2004, 12:00 PM
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abel_pranger
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

Thanks for the response guys, I'll check out the forum you mentioned. And you're right Don, it'd be a cold day in hell before I try to get my homeowners involved in something like this.
John-
The excerpt I quoted seems to summarize your post.
Fact is, if you have homeowners, there is no way your AMA insurance will keep them out of a claim. Your HO would pay up to its limit, and if that doesn't cover it, AMA would then pay up to its limit. Actually, it wouldn't keep your HO out of it even if AMA coverage were primary. In that case even if you only filed with AMA and AMA paid, they would then take action to recover a share of the payout from any other insurance provider that covers you for the same loss. Nothing unusual about this - any other insurer would do the same.

Abel
Old 04-28-2004, 12:26 PM
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yard-dart
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

I have read through everything on the site thoroughly, and I do abide by the listed rules. I'm glad that you've given me some insight about AMA paying on claims. Thanks for all of your input.

John
Old 04-28-2004, 12:33 PM
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mongo
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

ifn ya wana have yer homeowners stay out of it, ya gotta get yer agent to write in an exclusion clause that covers model avvaition related occurances.
Old 04-28-2004, 01:15 PM
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FHHuber
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

Found another PDF about what the AMA has paid, more recently... does not say what the insurance co paid though... just the amount that the AMA's share of the payouts was. (anything below the AMA's "Self Insured" level... comes from the AMA's coffers, not the insurance company's)

It does list the number of claims and basic type (property damage, injury, death...)

http://www.modelaircraft.org/templat...-files/530.pdf
Old 04-28-2004, 07:15 PM
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

All you big mouthed whiner's who dont like the AMA, "GET THE HECK OUT". Leave, go cry to mama, in your beer, or where ever it is that you cry and whine the most. Leave the rest of us in peace.[:@][:'(][:@][:'(]
Old 04-29-2004, 08:57 AM
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yard-dart
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

That'll probably be happening Jackass! Oh, for the record, it's bourbon, not beer. I don't cry, I raise hell, and it's never to Mother. And, "leave you others in peace"? I didn't know that I disturbed you. You must love to suck the ass of the AMA, an organization that does nothing at all for me, and many others. I bet you get wood just thinking about it! Just thinking about it sorta ruins my day.

Ta Ta,

John.... That's Mr. Kennedy to you.
Old 04-29-2004, 09:26 AM
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

If you are in this hobby to count pennies. It's not for you.

Things that are more than AMA insurance:

1 digital servo

90% of new glow engines

4 gallons of fuel

5 channel reciever

The point is in any plane, even arfs without including radio equipment the planes are usually over $300. So who cares about $58 stretched out for an entire year of flying. It's $4.83 a month!!!!! $1.12 A WEEK!!!! GET OVER IT. If never use it, THAT'S THE NATURE OF INSURANCE. If you do, you'll be glad you have it.

You should be thinking more about flying than the cost of a paltry insurance premium.
Old 04-29-2004, 09:54 AM
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yard-dart
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

Dynodan,


The money is not the point. I have invested many thousands of dollars into this hobby, so like you said, a mere $58.00 a year is chump change. If you have read through my posts thoroughly, you would notice that my complaint is that if I ever do have an accident, it's my homeowners, not the AMA, that's affected. So, what's the point of me paying for AMA? I have insurance, insurance that will have to pay before AMA's. Shouldn't I be able to show the club proof of homeowners and that be OK? I could understand someone needing AMA insurance if they didn't have homeowners, but that isn't the case for me. Hypothetically speaking, if I made a R/C related claim on my homeowners, of a signigicant amount, they will probably drop me after paying the claim. To me, that's what I'm paying AMA insurance for, to handle R/C related accidents. I don't want my homeowners involved whatsoever. So what does a guy like me, who has a modest home, do, compared to the Joe Blow who lives in a $2000.00 trailer down by the river without homeowners? I have an accident, I get screwed because I have homeowners. Joe Blow, who doesn't have homeowners, has an accident and the AMA pays. Doesn't seem to fair to me! You starting to feel me now brotherman? I didn't get to where I am today by pissing money away.

Money is not the point, I don't have a problem with money. It's "paying for nothing" that I have a problem with.
Old 04-29-2004, 10:20 AM
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

The point is in any plane, even arfs without including radio equipment the planes are usually over $300.
I have never spent that much on an ARF, $240 is the most I have spent. I will keep them in repair for at least 5 years or so. So $58 x 5 = $290. That's more than my most expensive ARF.

Not only with 3 kids on the Honor role, Band, swimming team, debts, etc, I am probably not going to be able to buy another ARF for several years. So I am rebuilding some of those ARFS that had minor crash's but was too tired of the plane to bother with. Heck I just recently got enough money to pay the club dues, now I am saving up for a case of fuel. So $58 is very significant for me right now.
Old 04-29-2004, 10:30 AM
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

OHHHH yard dart such a potty mouth ! YOUR STILL A WHINER and complainer, must be about 13 years old with your choice of words. TSK, TSK, TSK, do your parents know your playing on the computer using naughty words ??
Old 04-29-2004, 10:39 AM
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

ORIGINAL: Dynodan

If you are in this hobby to count pennies. It's not for you.

Things that are more than AMA insurance:

1 digital servo

90% of new glow engines

4 gallons of fuel

5 channel reciever

The point is in any plane, even arfs without including radio equipment the planes are usually over $300. So who cares about $58 stretched out for an entire year of flying. It's $4.83 a month!!!!! $1.12 A WEEK!!!! GET OVER IT. If never use it, THAT'S THE NATURE OF INSURANCE. If you do, you'll be glad you have it.

You should be thinking more about flying than the cost of a paltry insurance premium.
Well for me it is not the money...it “IS” having to pledge allegiance to United AMA every morning with my hand over my privates while looking intently at my AMA card.

Bottom line for me is that there are enough rules and laws that a guy has to follow outside the hobby/sport anyway. When I get to the field I really don't care for an AMA Barney deputy admonishing me on the aspects of my hobby/sport. There are those like FHGoober and Vpricely that consult the rules posted on their flight box every flight as a check list and are very proud to be sheep and have their world mandated. Then there are others that desire to be free and realize all the rules in the world will not prevent stupid acts or the stupid from flying.

Our best insurance is to keep our ears and eyes open and understand the environment that we are in and realize it is always changing. There are those at my field that I simply will not fly with, even though they abide by all rules, they simply are not compatible with my style or are just plain dangerous BUT I will defend their right to fly even if it precludes me from flying. Bottom line... crybabies like Goob and Vpresley that blindly follow the AMA’s lead should take up static modeling and leave us dangerous powered guys alone. They are the ones that need to leave IMO.

Where is the line to be drawn…Eye tests, manual dexterity tests, eye hand coordination tests, IQ tests, certified aircraft, bi annual inspections, repair logs, power to weight ratio limits/waivers, age limits/waivers, certified/approved parts and materials, repair techniques mandated, experimental aircraft waivers, speed limits, on and on and on…Heck before long this won’t be fun anymore!

So should we continue to head that way?

Since I have been in the hobby, it has become much more restrictive and at this rate the hobby as I know it will cease before my Son’s children have a chance to enjoy the hobby that I enjoy so.

So all you idiots that believe intelligence can be controlled by your rules please leave. Thank you very much.
Old 04-29-2004, 10:43 AM
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J_R
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

Hi yard-dart

The most recent financial statement is the one for 2002 which is posted in the Member’s Only Section on the AMA web site. The cost of the commercial insurance policy, based on that statement is about $5.50 for each adult member (140,000). In addiction, the AMA is self insured for the first $250,000 of each claim. That cost about $12 per adult in 2002. The total amount of your dues going to insurance is about $18 per year. The insurance has gone up in 2003 (the new financial statement should be up in a few days), and again in 2004 and will undoubtedly be a larger dollar amount of your dues.

Your assertion that most individual claims are probably paid by homeowner’s is correct, IMHO. The AMA coverage is “in excess” and other forms of coverage come first.

BUT, you are looking at a small piece of the pie. Take a look at the 2004 Club Charter Kit on the AMA site to get a good idea of what you are paying for.

The liability insurance also covers clubs, where the insurance is normally primary. It also covers the landlord, and the policy is without the potential exclusions included in the Safety Code. All at a cost to the club of about $100 per year. The simple fact is that your dues subsidizes those coverage’s.

Be aware that about 50% of claims made to the AMA are of the “trip and fall” variety, not flying related claims. Those claims typically involve the chartered club and the landlord.

You asserted that the AMA does not pay claims. I would assert that you can not find so many as one claim that has not been paid when the AMA was the coverage involved. Find just one person that says “my claim was not paid by the AMA” when their homeowner’s or some other coverage was not primary to the “in excess” coverage. Find just one.
Old 04-29-2004, 10:50 AM
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yard-dart
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

Where's the potty mouth? I don't see or hear one. So, come on little nerdy boy, who has nothing to do but sit around and troll other people's posts. Why do you wnat to bring people's families into this? That's being mature, sounds like you're the thirteen year old. NAUGHTY? NAUGHTY? Who in the hell uses the word NAUGHTY nowdays? Queers, that's who! Not only are "you" thirteen, you're also a queer! What is this world coming to? I guess you're one of those people who want gay marriages to be legalized. Yep, we've got a thirteen year old nerdy queer boy on our hands. I didn't know queers liked R/C. I guess you learn something new every day! Guess my club will have to go get some of that anti queer spray so we won't be having your kind invading us. We have problem enough with the mosquitos, we don't need any queery boys flying in trying to suck us dry. Nope, can't have that!


Oh I'm such a potty mouth! ... and NAUGHTY, cant' leave out NAUGHTY!
Old 04-29-2004, 10:55 AM
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yard-dart
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

J_R,

If you would have read, and maybe you just missed it, FHHUBER corrected my thinking. "He" gave me some insight on this, so I stood corrected yesterday. So, I can see you interest, but too late pal, someone else has already stole your thunder!

Thanks anyway!
Old 04-29-2004, 10:55 AM
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ChuckAuger
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

Popcorn! Get yer popcorn!
Old 04-29-2004, 11:00 AM
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

Yard Dart, you must need glasses and a dictionary. But the attitude speaks for itself. Take your whinny ball and go play somewhere else. When you post drivel like the above, expect posts like mine. Ohhhh the Q word, OK your 14 then. LOL
Old 04-29-2004, 11:02 AM
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yard-dart
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

Yep, better get a fifty-five gallon drum of it, we're gonna be here a while! And to think, I'm setting here getting paid right now! WHAT FUN, WHAT FUN! And to think, I've got all day to do this! Wait, I'm the boss, I can leave whenever I want! I think I'll leave out around one to go fly. Yep, that's what I'll do! So, you guys have got until one! Better make damn good use of your time cause I haven't got all day!
Old 04-29-2004, 11:05 AM
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Crashem
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

The posts in this thread are exactly why I read RCU... They are also exactly why I'd never PAY for the privilege of using this site.

Yard-Dart,

Why don't you volunteer to be the guy at your club who makes sure all the members have up to date and adequate insurance coverage?????????? Sounds like a full time job to me making sure everbodys insured
Old 04-29-2004, 11:05 AM
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

ORIGINAL: J_R

Hi yard-dart

The most recent financial statement is the one for 2002 which is posted in the Member’s Only Section on the AMA web site. The cost of the commercial insurance policy, based on that statement is about $5.50 for each adult member (140,000). In addiction, the AMA is self insured for the first $250,000 of each claim. That cost about $12 per adult in 2002. The total amount of your dues going to insurance is about $18 per year. The insurance has gone up in 2003 (the new financial statement should be up in a few days), and again in 2004 and will undoubtedly be a larger dollar amount of your dues.

Your assertion that most individual claims are probably paid by homeowner’s is correct, IMHO. The AMA coverage is “in excess” and other forms of coverage come first.

BUT, you are looking at a small piece of the pie. Take a look at the 2004 Club Charter Kit on the AMA site to get a good idea of what you are paying for.

The liability insurance also covers clubs, where the insurance is normally primary. It also covers the landlord, and the policy is without the potential exclusions included in the Safety Code. All at a cost to the club of about $100 per year. The simple fact is that your dues subsidizes those coverage’s.

Be aware that about 50% of claims made to the AMA are of the “trip and fall” variety, not flying related claims. Those claims typically involve the chartered club and the landlord.

You asserted that the AMA does not pay claims. I would assert that you can not find so many as one claim that has not been paid when the AMA was the coverage involved. Find just one person that says “my claim was not paid by the AMA” when their homeowner’s or some other coverage was not primary to the “in excess” coverage. Find just one.

ORIGINAL: J_R

“in excess”?
Hate to be a stickler, since you and I have been getting along pretty well here lately, but you know that there are those in this forum that are. But "in excess" is totally different than the actual meaning of "is excess". You know it hinges on what the meaning of what IS is.

A true example of all rules, their interpretation and what I believe are misleading terms.

The very reason I hate rules and the nature of subjective analysis by some idiot judge that has had a bad hair day.
Old 04-29-2004, 11:10 AM
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J_R
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

ORIGINAL: yard-dart

J_R,

If you would have read, and maybe you just missed it, FHHUBER corrected my thinking. "He" gave me some insight on this, so I stood corrected yesterday. So, I can see you interest, but too late pal, someone else has already stole your thunder!

Thanks anyway!
Sorry

My main point is the coverage affored to the club and the landlord, which I must have missed in Huber's post. Without those, most clubs would cease to exist, or, at the very least the club dues would be substantially higher if a policy had to be purchased for the landlord, or club.

The individual coverage is pales in value IMHO.
Old 04-29-2004, 11:16 AM
  #24  
yard-dart
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

Dictionary? What's a dictionary? Fourteen! You mean to tell me I'm fourteen, I thought I was thirteen! Oh my gosh! I'm so NAUGHTY, I should know these things! Let me go get my glasses! Oh no! I don't wear glasses! What am I gonna do! Faggy boy said I need glasses! Let me go get my Mommy!

Crashem,

The club has got a secretary for that, though I like your thinking. To have AMA or to not have AMA, that is the question. I guess I'll just have to hand them my money so they can wipe their ass with it and send me a stinkin little card and a half-assed modeling magazine. Seems pretty damn chinchy if you ask me. But, to stay with a club, I guess you gotta have it.
Old 04-29-2004, 11:22 AM
  #25  
Crashem
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Default RE: What's your opinion on the AMA?

The club has got a secretary for that, though I like your thinking.
Why don't you ask the secretary if they wouldn't mind the extra work you original suggestion entails? I'd be willing to be you'd be looking for a new secretary[X(] If that becomes the case I'd assume you'd be the first to volunteer for the position

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