I have a few questions I can't seem to get clear specific answers to. I'm not an attorney, but I will try to keep this as simple and clear as I can in asking the questions.

If you are a CD, or member of the BOD does AMA insurance provide for the expense of legal representation and protection against damages if a ruling is made in favor of the plaintiff? Or, are you personally liable and on your own? If the CD's and BOD members are not covered then how many of you take out individual policies in the event someone not only filed against the club but you individually? Maybe I should direct these questions to the AMA site, but I thought I would first ask here. I can't imagine that if a suit were filed against a club that a plaintiff would not also try to file against the CD and BOD for personal liability. If AMA insurance does not provide coverage for such events then it would appear that all CD's and BOD members are wide open to major expense liabilities even if only in acquiring legal representation, let alone damages.

Your question is too wide ranging to answer with any accuracy. A call to Carl Maroney at AMA HQ is in order.

You can get the best available published information on the AMA site in the Club Charter Pakage if you read it carefully. http://www.modelaircraft.org/templat...004clubkit.pdf

Some generailities:

CD's are agents of the AMA which puts them in a class by themselves. Individual AMA members and chartered clubs are NOT agents of the AMA. Look in the Competition Rule Book for more on CDs. http://www.modelaircraft.org/templates/ama/compreg.asp

There are really three seperate coverages. Individual, which may have as exclusions the Safety Code. Chartered Clubs, which may have as exclusions the Safety Code. The landlord who is not subject to the Safety Code.

The AMA by-laws state that representation is available to clubs, but does not state under what conditiions.

There are a number of exclusions, including, but not limited to an exclusion for slander and libel.

Again, your questions are much too broad in scope for anyone, even Carl, to answer specifically. If you call, have very specific questions. You can also get a copy of the pollicy for $5 when you call him. It's a 60 page doc, so be prepared.

JR-

It ain't all that hard. BOD members, i.e., the EC. are covered for liability by a separate policy that is not available to you (notwithstanding that you are a CD and so an agent of AMA) or me (not a CD nor an agent of AMA in any other fashion).

Abel

Abel

I assumed he meant the BOD of the club, not the AMA. Perhaps a clarification is in order.

I am only protected as a CD at a sanctioned event, not in the day to day flying, or club activities I am involved in.

Doggone, JR, it might have been me that read it wrong and rfw1953 was referring to the club BOD. If that's the case, rfw1953, it's just a simple matter of looking it up in your AMA insurance policy. What the heck did you pay your $58 for?

Abel

Guys, I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible, but I understand it must be a complicated matter. Let me try to clarify a few points. I was referring to a local AMA flying club. Let me give two examples that might zero in a bit more on the questions. The examples are merely to help in clarifying the questions and not actual events that have occurred. I hope they never do.

During an AMA sanctioned event such as a Big Bird event. Let's assume the rules have been adhered to regarding RC airplanes pertaining to size, weight and power restrictions without any permits involved. A guest AMA card bearing pilot attending the event looses control of his 1/4 scale Extra with a 160, while flying beyond the zero line and injures a spectator. The spectator files a lawsuit against the the AMA, club, pilot and goes a step further by filing personal lawsuits against all or specific BOD members and the CD for the event claiming negligence by the CD and the BOD members. The justification is that the CD and the club failed to have adequate protection for spectators. You can almost be assured that if an attorney is going to file a suit on behalf of the plaintiff against the AMA, club and pilot, he will most likely file individual suits against all or specific BOD members and the CD. If this were to happen, who pays the expense for individual legal council for the BOD members and the CD? If a ruling is in favor of the plaintiff would AMA insurance cover the personal damages under the policy for individual BOD members and the CD?

What I am trying to determine is this. If I am going to be a CD or on the BOD should I look into personal liability insurance or am I covered by the AMA policy?

One more example. Let's say that I am on the BOD. A newly soloed AMA card bearing club member flies his trainer into the pits and injures a fellow club member. The recently soloed pilot was under the instruction of an instructor that had been flying for three years. There isn't any formal training or certification process for becoming an instructor. The injured member files a suit against the new pilot claiming he was not capable of safely flying his airplane. In the process a suit is filed against the AMA, club, BOD and the instructor claiming negligence in that the only qualification for becoming an instructor was that the fairly new instructor had demonstrated good flying skills, seemed to be a good guy, a good club member and he volunteered to help as an instructor. Would AMA insurance pay for the legal fees to represent me individually as a member of the BOD? If the courts ruled in favor of the plaintiff, that due to negligence regarding instructor training and the lack of certification, that I as a BOD member failed to act in such a manner to prevent the accident, would I be personally liable for the damages?

If you have ever been to court, you know that even if you win it can be expensive personally if you have to pay for your own individual legal council. If you happen to lose, and this happens, even when when maybe it shouldn't who pays for the personal damages against you personally?

Well, I wish it was this simple. I have and honestly can't seem to get a good clear answer to my questions. If I ma missing something please excuse me. I had hoped this was pretty hands down. it's apparently not. I am beginning to think that if you serve, and I have, then you had better know the answer for sure, or you put your net worth at great risk.

The Club Charter Package specifically addresses your concerns about providing a defense, as do the Competition Regulations for a CD. It's a pain, but you really should read them... slowly and deliberately.

I am not trying to duck your question, but there are also some restrictions that apply that you need to be aware of and reading the info is the only way to get the picture.

Also, in looking at your scenario, you neglected the landlord. He is "Mr. deep pockets" since his coverage does not have the exclusions the other entities do under the AMA policy.

As an individual, homeowner's insurance, which does provide a defense, comes before the AMA policy. If you were to obtain a policy to cover the club officers, it would also make the AMA policy excess.

Oh... and I think Abel is right, the AMA policy should at the very least be published on the AMA site, maybe in the Member's Only section.

Roger-
I owe you an apology. Your questions are certainly germane, and and in the 'better living through litigation' society we live in, very sensible to contemplate. As you have probably surmised my reply was a facetious, sardonic commentary on how I feel about AMA not providing us with a copy of the insurance policy, or even access to it via the members-only section of the AMA web site. The reason we don't get it has been cited, to the effect that the language is too complicated for the hoi polloi to understand. That being the case JR was right, your only option is to contact Carl Maroney and get his interpretation of what is covered by the insurance policy you bought. If you do get good clear answers, please come back and pass them on - using words with as few syllables as possible, please.[]

Abel

Roger:

You didn't say; but if the club in question is incorporated then there may be liability limits on officers/directors. I do know that in Oklahoma incorporation does offer some protection but there are exclusions (fraud, etc). Just a thought.

Dan

Abel,

Are you admitting to being sarcastic?[X(][X(][X(]

I never would have thunk it!!!


Everyone,

Anyways, I agree, pertinent information regarding insurance coverage for clubs and officers/CD's and contests should, most definitely be spelled out in greater detail. And in locations (online) where it is easily accesible for the general membership.

On a sideways but similar note, what actual percentage (in your opinion) actually knows the benefits of the AMA, and what they are covered for. And, likewise, what percentage are going to be very surprised when they have an "accident" that requires AMA coverage.

Jay L.

Awaiting your thoughts.

Roger:

Your questions will only become simple and "....good clear answers...' when decided by a judge and/or jury as the case may be. In, as Abel says"....better living through litigation..." society, only the courts have the clear answers.

Your RCRC website has the club listed as incorporated in their mailing address. Incorporation can provide some personal liability protection. Actually, unless changed in the past few years, it is generally accepted that corporations need to include the term, "Inc." when using/displaying the corporate name. If you get on the BOD, then perhaps you could initiate that update for your RCRC. As explained to me by the legal beagles in my minor corporate affairs, it's OK to use Inc. when NOT, but it's NOT OK to omit Inc. when you are Inc.

Commercial Umbrella Liability Insurance is not all that expensive if one wants to "....know the answer for sure." In addition another primary liability modeling insurance is available through United Modelers of America, Ltd. (http://www.unitedmodelers.com/) for $45 per year. No mag, No politics, just primary liability insurance. Of course UMA does not replace AMA where AMA is required.

In today's world where many people flock to a smiling young-looking LIABILITY TRIAL LAWYER millionaire for leadership of the country, you can bet your bottom dollar that things are NOT going to get any better. If you are willing to serve, then you need to be willing to take the risk and/or protect yourself with more than AMA. Unlike JR, I have little faith in any information from AMA's Carl Maroney as his answers are either a Tap-Tap soft-shoe around the subject or in a number of cases to me, significantly less than a "....clear answer..."

Two years ago I had to expend personal funds to wave off a potential lawsuit from a high-ranking member of the AMA Ex. Council. Not easy to swallow and never forgettable. Trust in AMA -- No Way, especially under the current leadership.

Edited to add a couple things.

Texas State registered corporate agent for Jetero Radio Control Club, Inc.

To a point, I have to agree with Horrace. Carl administers the AMA program where the membership is involved, but, even he does not know everything about the policy. IMHO Larry Johnson is the only one, not an employee of the insurance company, that has a better handle on what is in the policy, and he is not available to the membership (he is the insurance agent). As a result, unless you are willing to spend the money to have an attorney analyze the policy, Carl is the best source available.

Jay

I do not believe any AMA member knows exactly what the coverage of the AMA policy is. Many members only surprise is that the AMA policy is excess. When it comes to making claims for events that are actually covered, there appear to be virtually no surprises. I have issued a challenge, here and elsewhere, to find ANYONE who has had a claim turned down by the AMA, where the AMA policy is the one actually insuring the incident (as opposed to homeowner’s, etc.) . Thus far, and it has been a couple of years, no one has come forward. Occasionally we hear rumors of such, but no one knows anyone it actually happened to. In talking to Carl, he could not remember a claim being turned down, although he left the door open, stating it is possible he may have forgotten one years ago (discusson was 8 mo ago, now). After reading the Club Charter Package, my concerns were addressed. That does not mean that everyone’s concerns will be addressed, but, it is the best published info out there, IMHO.

Now let me ask a question. If what I have stated is fact, and all claims have been handled, does that imply that members operate in a manner consistent with safe practices and should be given the benefit of the doubt when we make assumptions about the common sense of the average modeler? Sure, we occasionally have an accident. That is what insurance if for. The number of actual claims, for a membership of about 170,000, is absolutely miniscule.

Well, thanks guys. It shows that sincere thought was given before responding. I now realize this is a difficult question, but it really shouldn't be. This is unfortunate and poses a potentially tremendous personal financial risk for people wanting and willing to serve. I have been in a court room one time in my life on a business related issue. The judge ruled in our favor, but the legal expenses and the financial losses encountered by our company while this dragged through the legal process were staggering. It was truly an unbelievable experience. I hope I never have to go through it again.

I know of friends who have spent in excess of $30,000 just for personal legal representation. In all cases they won, but the expense for representation was devastating for them when unprepared. Lord knows how they would have survived had the judged ruled against them. I mean, who has in excess of 30K laying around for something like this, and for a hobby to boot?

Yes, our club is incorporated and we will have to address the issue raised about including such when listing the name of the club. Likewise, here is what I learned from your input. I need to contact two people. Carl Maroney with AMA and Larry Johnson, but Larry isn't available to the membership so he is out. That leads me back to Carl. It also sounds like taking out a commercial policy specifically for the leadership is something to look into if I can't get specific responses to my questions from Carl. I wonder how many clubs do this? I wonder how many officers and CD's think about it?

As with any insurance company, things like fraud among other illegal issues will leave you high and dry, and with greater problems than merely financial. The examples I provided were under the assumption that club business and functionality are within AMA policy expectations. Here is the kicker. Regardless of how well a club or event is run, unintentional errors can and will enter into a host of scenarios that would be extremely difficult to list. The question still remains. Will the AMA insurance coverage pay for individual legal representation and damages, or are the leaders and CD's of our clubs at personal financial risk? I honestly don't know the answer. Not meant to be sarcastic, but you guys don't know either, or the answer is, it depends. Well, as far as I'm concerned the only logical response to this is that unless the AMA states otherwise you have to assume you aren't covered by the insurance. You darn sure wouldn't want to find out the answers when it comes time to get an attorney.

After posting my original questions, and before realizing that Carl Maroney would be to best go to person, I drafted an email to Dave Brown asking the same questions. I am going to send Dave another email stating that I understand that Carl is the person I should have sent the email to and then copy Carl. Let's hope for a favorable response. From your input, I should expect more vague responses. I hope not.

Thank you for your time and input. I will let you know what I learn from this, but I won't be serving in any capacity in the future until I have confidence in the answers.

Hi Roger

I understand your concerns. Many of us have asked ourselves the same questions. Having said that, this thread has left an impression that we are all at risk in all circumstances. At the same time, I would submit that no one, not even the insurance company, can answer every possible "what if" question. Someone can always add some wild, wierd element to the question that will change the answer.

No one wants to get on a forum like this and state flately that coverage does or does not exist, and I am no exception. Let me proceed with a series of facts and questions that may allow you to devine some of the answers I have concluded for myself, which I would not suggest anyone rely on.

The coverage for a landlord is a full blown liability policy, without the exemptions the Safety Code provides. Would an attorney take every entity in sight in a law suit? If the insurance company has to provide a defense for the landlord, does it make any sense that they would not defend each other entity since a judgement would apply to the same policy? In other words, what would be the advantage to the insurance company to defend a landlord and win, and then turn around and pay a judgement against a CD, individual, club, BOD, or other covered entity?

There is information in print (in the AMA by-laws, Renewal Kit and the Competition Regulations). Can that information be relied on? Could an individual, club or another entity rely on statements made in print and have recourse if those statements were not accurate?

Is the entity doing it's best to follow the Safety Code? Is the entity doing anything illegal? Are any printed exclusions to the coverage being ignored?

Jr,

All at risk in all circumstances? I hope I didn't suggest this. I don't believe this to be true. Conversely, I also don't fully understand when I am under the umbrella of protection provided by AMA insurance and when not if serving as an officer or CD.

I hope it's as you imply, if I understand this correctly.

Paraphrased, all entities, Landlord, clubs, pilots, officers, CD's and workers are covered by AMA. This seems logical and your rational makes sense. Maybe it's this simple. Carl responded to my email and said he would try to answer my concerns as soon as possible. For now, I think the best thing to do is wait to see what Carl says. My intentions are sincere and not in any way for the purpose of trying to stir the pot. I would simply like to to better understand my personal liability when serving on the BOD or as a CD. Like I said, waiting until you need an attorney is not the time to get the answers.

Thanks for the responses from everyone. Let's wait now for some kind of official word on this if one can be provided. Anything else would only be speculation unless someone has knowledge from personal experience with this issue.

It just occurred to me that I had more than one conversation with Carl Maroney about this general subject when the notice that clubs by-laws were going to be reviewed went out.

There are specific exclusions to the coverage for club officers that are now in place. Club officers act without liability coverage for slander, libel, and if club bylaws were not followed. As per the new requirements, club by-laws MUST include a due process section for disciplinary issues.

These exclusions are the result of a multi hundred thousand dollar claim paid by AMA insurance in a situation where some club officers made some very bad decisions and threw out some members with no due process. There be dragons there, so check and see if your by-laws balance control against rights properly.

Good luck.

I received a timely response from Carl and I'm satisfied with the response. This seems to answer my questions as good as I feel anyone could have expected. As many of you have stated, there are always exclusions within any policy. AMA is not an exception here in my book. What the exclusions are would be an obvious question, but in gerneal I feel that if you are working within the rules and guidelines, within reason, there is personal protection. Am I missing anything here I should be concerned about?