Bill Mixon

Mr. Mathewson

Where do you stand on the issue of hovering, 3D flying, and safety code 9?
I love 3D flying, and just a short few years ago I really enjoyed it, but then code 9 came about and basically killed the fun of going to local events. First it was the not being able to touch the model rule which really rubbed me the wrong way. This was one of the most fun parts of 3D flying, being able to hover right up to myself and grab the plane from the air. I was suddenly banned from doing such, and had to make modifications to some planes where they could be landed without touching them.
And most recently the addition to code 9 that banned tail, wingtip, etc from touching the ground.[:@]
When I heard about this I almost took my AMA card and tossed it. And I probably would have if I didn't go to a few events that I must have the card at.
Dave Brown has pretty much made it clear that he isn't for 3D flying at all. So what do you think about it and what are your plans (if any) regarding code 9 if elected?

Bill

Dave Mathewson

Hi Bill,
I'm sure you know that earlier this year rule 9 was revised to eliminate the words "nor should any part of the model other than the landing gear intentionally touch the ground except while landing". I voted in favor of removing those words. I generally favor simple guidelines, like setback guidelines for example, to address safety issues. An example would be the setback guidelines created for RC Combat which seem to work well.

Sometimes when rules are created targeting a specific action the result sometimes has a broad impact. The first part of rule 9 was a result of members touching (and spectators being invited to touch) the tail sections of 40% plus size models hovering in front of them. I can't say I was comfortable with that activity. This activity also played a part in the 25' reference in rule 8. I think 3D flying is a whole lot more than reaching out and grabbing a model out of the air, but I also realize that the level of risk can be different depending on what is being flown. I'm open to suggestions as to how we can address the one without impacting the other.
Dave

Bill Mixon

Thanks for the reply, Dave

Yes, I'm aware of the code 9 revision.
To be quite honest the first part was of more concern to me, but I'm glad that some action was taken to get the rule changed. When I heard about the addition to code 9 I figured well, first it's no touching the model, this year it's no touching the ground, maybe next year hovering will be outlawed, then aerobatics alltogether.
That's an exaggerative point of view, but I think you get my point.

Yes, a 40% model and a .40 size model are two different things, and I think common sense should be used when flying any aircraft.
I will not go into the "what type flying is more dangerous" debate, it's been beat to death on other threads. But I consider my small models such as a 8oz. indoor 3D model have a very low risk factor.
I have my own limits that I use when flying my models. And, I have been one of those that grabs the tail of the model in flight, however I found that it's not easy to grab hold of a giant scale plane and hold it steady so it's not something I do. But with my small electric planes and the planes up to .60 size glow I don't see a problem with it. Basically if I can't (easily) pick the model up and hold it vertically with one hand I'm not going to do any touching or grabbing of the plane in flight.
I guess that's the tough part and I really don't know of a perfect solution that will make everybody happy. One thing I've thought of is the weight of an aircraft. I had much rather be hit by a small electric than a giant scale regardless of what or how the model is being flown.
I really don't ever expect code 9 to be done away with, I just don't wan't to continue seeing additions to it.

Bill

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

One of the big problems is that "common sense" is different from person to person. Your common sense, for example, tells you that you can reach out and grab a 7-10lb .60-powered plane out of the air. My common sense tells me that if I slip, either on the transmitter or the plane, I'm lunchmeat! Then there are hundreds of factors beyond my control that could cause that plane to do something totally unpredictable.

Just recently, I've seen what an engine as small as a .15 can do to human flesh. The man could've bled to death very easily had he been there alone. Can you really say that there is a difference between a .40 and a 40%? I'll agree that there is certainly a difference between an 8oz electric park flier and a 40% as far as inherent danger goes, but is getting slashed open really all that different from getting parts hacked clean off? Either way, you're severely injured and bleeding.

That said, I otherwise agree with your take on flying styles and banning specific flying types or maneuvers. Perhaps instead of banning or trying to regulate flying styles, the AMA should define and separate them? That is, no 3D while others are "flying the pattern," and no flying the pattern when others are flying 3D. There is nothing wrong with either flying style, but the traffic patterns they create are not compatible with each other.

If egos and selfishness didn't get in the way, there wouldn't be a need for such rules in the first place. The 3D guy could wait 10 minutes for the other guys to land, and the guy who "just flies" could give up the sky for 10 minutes so the 3D guy could get in a flight.

Dave Mathewson

Hi Matt,
What I'm seeing around here is that these situations are pretty much ironing themselves out. I was at an IMAA event in Chenango Bridge a few weeks ago where it looked like a problem was developing. The CD stepped up and set flight times for each type of flying style. The Warbird and "conventional" guys got their flight time and the 3Ders got theirs. The different styles didn't fly together and everybody seemed happy. I agree that flying both styles together is asking for trouble but if the pilots are uncomfortable they won't come back and that'll spell the end of the event or at least limit it in size. That alone gives the CD a little incentive to find a solution.
Dave

Bill Mixon

True, and some folks get a little carried away with their flying and do things that even I don't think are safe.
The same thing or worse could happen while simply starting the engine on a model. When I do a hover catch I'm as much in control of the model as when starting it and also I'm typically behind the arc of the prop.
True, I could be hovering right in front of me and have some type of failure that could possibly cause the aircaft to come towards me or someone else. Only catch to that is the fact that it can happen at any time to any aircraft anywhere at any altitude or attitude. It such case I had rather have it happen to an aircraft hovering a 0 airspeed right over the ground vs. up high at speed going down who knows where.
I know that you can get some serious injuries from most any size prop. I think I could handle a cut finger a little better than the loss of a limb though.
Where I see danger at is heavy aircraft flying a high speeds or even relatively light aircraft at really high speeds. The cut from the prop would be the least of my worries if I were to be hit by a 50lb plane doing 80mph, or a 5lb pylon racer doing 150mph. Both of those would have some serious impact energy compared to something lightweight going slow.
That's what I'm seeing as well. Recently at a large electric flight event (SEFF) held here in GA, the flightline was split up into 3 sections. One for 3D, one for sport type flying, and one for parkflyers. It wasn't perfect due to the long walks and aircraft ocasionally flying beyond their area, but it was much better than banning some types of flying or just letting everyone do what they wanted. At large events there just simple isn't enough sky and runway for everyone to use without some issues coming up. I've got a feeling that specific events will start being held for 3D flying, much like what has happened to Helicopters. I remember dealing with that years back when Helicopters first got popular and wide spread. A lot of fixed wing fliers were not sure about heli's and it didn't take much for helicopters to get where they were not welcome at some fields and events. So, us heli fliers ended up with our own events seperate from fixed wing events. At least with helicopters there were never any safety codes that effected heli fliers directly. It doesn't seem the same for the growing 3D segment of RC.

Regards,
Bill

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

please bill, don't be giving em any ideas.

we have mostly managed to keep helis off the radar, and it has been nice

Gordo-ProBro

Oh come on Matt. There is no reason 3D and "normal" flight can't go on together in the common flying situation. Now if you got 5 guys 3Din, that's different. But any day you can have me hovering in my face and a guy flying the pattern and we can get along fine as long as we communicate and respect each other.

I'd add that the most dis-respect I've ever had was at SMALL in little Rock where the VAST majority of "normal" pilots enjoyed the few of us that flew 3D but 2 guys made asses of themselves and made the day hard for all. It can go either way!![:@]

As soon as AMA makes your rule, you'll find 20 other "styles" that need to be seperated. Ever tried to fly a trainer while a guy practices with a Q-500? Or what about the guy who has a $10,000 plane, and says he should be allowed to ground you while he flies because your style interferes with his? Should we say new pilots can only fly at the top 10 minutes of every hour, since they are the ones other pilots must be on the look out for?

Instead, how about we let each club work it out, as it is now. Most grown up men can get along without more rules, and around here, those that can't soon leave, since we don't give them any room to work.

diceman

My Feedback: (10)

It's simply not safe under any circumstances to do these things. It's nothing more than a dare-devil stunt, and it's as simple as that!!!!