Hossfly

That is why one has primary insurance. The inexpensive secondary insurance is a back-up to preclude serious financial loss when the very expensive primary limits are exceeded.

INSURANCE IS NOT AN INVESTMENT. See your financial planner, or stock-broker or seek other self-directed plans for investment services.

AMA Insurance is just like auto insurance, something to defray potential liability IF IT SHOULD HAPPEN.

Again, GET REAL. BTW, you obviously have no clue to "well hoss: it is like this." You display no concept of what IS and what ISN'T. [sm=confused.gif]

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

hoss:

if i am reading the numbers JR posted right, in 4 years 136 folks used the "excess" coverage.
now that dosen't hardly justify the expense of carrying it, in my opinion.
none of the claims numbers, $, posted, justify the levvel of "excess" that we are carrying either.

J_R

Hi mongo

The numbers posted in the tables are for medical claims. The 44 claims that have no dollar values attached are in document 530 and are for property damage and bodily injury, and are for one year. We know from past information from the AMA President that about half of the amount involved in those 44 claims is generated by trip and fall type claims. This points us back to the coverage afforded landlords and clubs, as well as individuals involved in those trip and fall claims.

We also know that the amount paid by each member, for liability coverage, is on the order of $20-$22 per year of their dues, including the SIR. If that were cut in half to eliminate personal coveage, that would be a savings of about $10 per year, all things being equal. Of course all things are never equal.

This is just a personal opinion. For $10 a year, I will take the coveage and force everyone else that I fly with to take it as well. Where are you going to get a $2.5 million policy, even if it is excess, for that kind of money? As Horrace said, with the exception of whole life insurance, insurance can't be looked at as an investment.

Now, if you are talking about the medical claims, the AMA's premium is under $80,000 IIRC. That would amount to only a savings of about $.50 per member per year. There are actually three policies. Liability. Medical. Fire and Theft (which costs even less).

Must be the moon and the sun are aligned with Mars just right. I find myself agreeing with Horrace on a regular basis lately.

rw Guinn

If you have nothing, you have nothing to lose. Like Hoss, I don't buy insurance to get you fixed up if something I'm doing goes bad. I buy insurance to protect my family's financial solvency. Lawsuits are expensive, and until you've been on the wrong side of one, you never realize just HOW expensive. There are no public defenders in Civil court, and even the weakest lawsuit will require that you pony up $30K to lawyers, just to get started defending. Defense lawyers don't work on a contingency basis--you pay them up front.
Maybe you guys have that kind of cash lying around. I don't--so I carry insurance to try and stay out of Bankruptcy Court if I screw up badly enough.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Well said!

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

yer homeowners already covers ya fer the cost of the legal team.
as in, if ya got anything at all to loose, ya already got homeowners.

gona have ta come up with something else to justify it with.

and again, all i want is data to use to make an INFORMED decision with.

rw Guinn

And when the legal team loses the case 'cuz the Jury hated your rich guts for being able to afford "toy" airplanes?
Where does the settlement come from--your homeowners has limits, y'know...Iknow mine did, and so does the Renter's insurance I carry right now...
the AMA limit is cheap "insurance insurance

abel_pranger

Roger-
Sure the HO policy has limits, just as AMA's insurance does. If the limit isn't enough, some of up raise that limit with a PUP. PUP's are comprehensive, and cover a multitude of hazards to your fiscal welfare, like driving a car or owning a dog, just two examples of things that are vastly more likely to get you into a big-bucks liability situation than flying a toy airplane. Of course they cover the improbable risks like flying toy airplanes too, I pay about $130/yr for a PUP to raise the limit on multiple HO policies (I'm a landlord too) and my car and boat liability coverage to 1 million. Another million in coverage would incrase the cost by about $100/yr. Granted I'm paying more than twice as much for the PUP as I pay for AMA, but it covers liability risk exposure that is statistically orders of magnitude greater. AMA is 'cheap' insurance only if flying model airplanes is the greatest liability risk you are faced with, and that condition won't apply to very many of us.

Abel

J_R

Abel

We have been on this Merry-go-round before. Are you going to volunteer to check the insurance of everyone in your club, periodically, to verify insurance is in place?

What do you do with those that do not own a home. Call your insurance agent and try to by an umbrella policy without an underlying homeowners policy. As Horrace has pointed out, time and again, insurance is as much for protecting you when you are hit or affected by some accident as it is to protect your assets.

mongo is in a somewhat different postion, in that he is not a club member, but, we do know he flys at sanctioned events on occasion. Who is going to verify his insurance there? If you think holding the policy in your hand and showing it to a CD is going to work, you are sadly mistaken. Non-payment of premiums is followed by cancellation. Physically holding a policy means nothing.

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

everybody i name as an additional insured on my libiality umbrella, get a notice 60 days before due date of my policy that it is about to expire, and they get another notice at 30 days. they also get a notice of renual when i pay up.

naming a club would not cost me an extra cent, as i am sure it would not cost able any extra either.

even a standard ho policy, sends a notice to the morgtage holder prior to expriation date of the ins, and could probably be persuaded to do so to a club as well.

J_R

mongo

That still leaves someone in each club with the job of making sure everyone has current insurance. Once a week? Once a month? Every day? The ONLY reason ALL AMA memberships expire at the end of the year is so the burden of checking is not constantly on the clubs. Headquarters would much prefer that the renewals be spread out over the entire year. Such a proposal was rejected in the last couple of years in order to make life easier on clubs.

Even if the clubs were willing to put up with the extra work, there is no assurance to a CD at a sanctioned event that the insurance is current and the premiums paid. Many, like yourself, fly all over the place.

In addition, keep in mind that the $10 guess I made was imperfect. I have no idea what the actual savings would be, if any. As I am sure you are aware, the fact that you cut coverage in half does not assure that the premiums will be reduced proportionately.

J_R

mongo

Couple of more questions for you.

You don't recieve a renewal on X. Do you want to be the one to confront him? What do you do when he tells you he changed compaines and the renewal is in the mail?

Do you want to be the one to go to the PO Box each day to check for renewals and cancellations? The club I have has 150 members. Am I to create a file on each and monitor them all constantly? No Thanks.

Suppose that I do agree to do the job and I make a mistake. I let X fly when his policy has not been renewed. He hits Y. Who protects me in the ensuing suit?

abel_pranger

No, because I don't consider an individual's insurance coverage the business of the club. Statistically, I am a greater threat of injuring my next door neighbor than I am to others at the flying field, yet my next door neighbor has no right whatever to know what insurance coverage I have, if any. No law says I have to be covered by a HO policy; on property that is mortgaged the lender may require it but they can't tell me who I have to buy it from. State law says I have to be covered by liability insurance while driving, but certainly not for 2.5 million, and again they cannot tell me where I have to buy it. As the state requires it, it is incumbent on the state to verify that I have it, which they do in cursory way - but I can change carriers at will, and buy auto insurance by the week if I choose to...........
The only reason that AMA chartered clubs need verification of an individual member's insurance is because the AMA club's insurance coverage is conditioned on every club member being an AMA member. The reason for this condition is obvious - it self-servingly creates the market for what AMA sells, as a sole-source vendor. AMA could provide insurance for AMA clubs without of such conditions, but being a sole-source vendor in that specialty insurance market, they don't have to. They certainly will not - the entanglement with individual insurance policies, even to the extent that the club coverage is subsidized by the individual policies whether or not the individual belongs to a club, has become essential to AMA's cash flow. It isn't good for modelers or model aviation, but it is good for AMA's business, by the business plan that has evolved. Not knocking it so much as just calling it the way I see it. I am biased against it, as I have adequately provided for my insurance needs with comprehensive policies (and nobody can decide what is adeqate but me). As I have already bought the full meal ticket, I don't need to have somebody push the ala carte items on me.

The same thing I would do with the Columbian migrant worker next to me on the freeway - nothing. His car is worth possibly $100 as scrap metal - is he paying $1000 to insure it? Can I trust that the state has verified his insurance coverage?
I know Hoss's position is that insurance coverage of the guy standing next to him on the flight line is there to protect him if he injured. That doesn't work for me - like most people (except, peculiarly at AMA chartered club flying sites), I buy insurance to protect me, not for the benefit of the other guy. What is special about the model flying venue as relates to insurance? Can you cite any other recreational activities that have a parallel as to fixation with individual liability insurance and an insurance sales motivated hold over pursuit of that activity to compare with the AMA club charter terms and conditions?
[/quote]

Abel

rw Guinn

[quote]ORIGINAL: abel_pranger

[quote]ORIGINAL: rw Guinn

you are correct there--but a million bucks is going to cover me except in a case of "Willful neglegence" or some sort of thing like that, in which case insurance ain't gonna help no way no how...
As for other liabilities, Models are my current exposure limit. My company carries the tab for professional liability (in a written contract), or I don't use the "Professional Engineer" stamp.

Roger W Guinn, PE

J_R

Hi able

I can’t even try to rebut some of your views. I will, however, point out to you that life insurance sells fairly well. I somehow doubt that life insurance is purchased to protect the individual doing the purchasing. You have, what I would consider to be, an unusual view of insurance.

As to any other activities that put such a fixation (your choice of words, not mine) on insurance, I have to admit that I can not even think of a comparison to model flying. Whether it is NASCAR racing done as a professional event, or golf where fees are charged for each round, or pool where fees are charged for time, I have a hard time thinking of a pursuit that requires the facilities we use and which pursuit is done without the intent of making a profit. As soon as a profit is involved, the entrepreneur buys insurance to cover his liability. There must be something out there, but, I can’t think of it. If flying toy aircraft had been set up, many years ago, with a business model like other pursuits (such as golf), it might well be the case that insurance would not be an issue. Somehow, I think the image of paying, say, $35 an hour at a model airport would be found offensive to many current modelers.

Keep in mind, that, and, protest as you will, the decision to pursue an AMA charter is made by the members of clubs. The AMA does not have salesmen out selling clubs on the idea, nor do I know of any club being coerced into applying for a charter by the AMA.

The decision of those not belonging to clubs is another matter and may well reflect on mongo’s situation. He wants to fly at AMA sanctioned events and membership is required. I suppose there are others, whose agenda is simply to support model aviation.

abel_pranger

[quote]ORIGINAL: J_R

Hi able

I can’t even try to rebut some of your views. I will, however, point out to you that life insurance sells fairly well. I somehow doubt that life insurance is purchased to protect the individual doing the purchasing. You have, what I would consider to be, an unusual view of insurance.
[quote]

Hi JR-

Well that seem a hell of a rhetorical stretch to me, but it may be due to my failure to articulate clearly - but that's OK, as this whole discussion is limited to rhetoric anyway, as the insurance thing has become so pervasive in AMA's modus operandi that any talk of changes is moot.
To clarify, when I said I buy insurance to protect 'me.' I intended 'me' to be inclusive of 'my interests,' which extend to my family. I don't think there is anything unusual about that. I buy life insurance and members of my family are beneficiaries.
Do the beneficiaries of life insurance you buy include persons unrelated to you in a familial way, or otherwise close to you as, say a business partner? If so, I would place you on a scale of altruism a couple of notches above Mother Theresa.

Abel

J_R

Well, we agree on something. It is all rhetoric and no change is forthcoming, relative to the insurance.

How does that go? Grant me the wisdom to know the difference?

There are things in the AMA we can influence, and I think that is the reason that we all continue to contribute here.

SoCal GliderGuider

Actually they do. Everything is computerized. All you have to do is outline the parameters for a report and query the database. Bet their insurance company knows this to the penny.

Disclosing this information would show that free flight and RC sailplanes are a very insignificant insurance risk in comparison to prop planes (gas and electric). In the seventies there was a movement by RC sailplaners to break away from the AMA. Remember the National Soaring Association? Now even the LSF is joined at the hip with the AMA. Smart move for the AMA. Poor move for the LSF.

SoCal GliderGuider

Exactly! Why are the "owners" of the AMA keep in the dark about this? If you want answers stop paying your AMA membership fees. Do this as a coordinated effort with at least half of the membership and you will get answers.

SoCal GliderGuider

Don't you just love it when the AMA is pointed out to as worthless as it really is. Except as an insurance company.

SoCal GliderGuider

I have in the last 15 years seen one person cut by winch lines. Was not a club member. I have not heard of any other time where a nonmember was cut. Nor have I heard of any other serious cuts that required medical treatment and the filing of a claim against the responsible members insurance -- personal or AMA. What does the AMA data say??? Ooops!

In the last 20 years I have seen two sailplanes fly into electric power lines. These happened at contests with at least 80 if not over a hundred participants flying three times each. A total of 200 to 300 flights in less than three hours.

I have seen two examples of "lawn darting" where other property was damaged. Once though the roof of a camper. The other through a roof of a garage at a contest. Both associated with the flyers failure to properly maintain their batteries and/or equipment. Again the number of flights exceeded 200 in less than three hours.

While the weight of a sailplane can exceed 10 pounds the landing speed is a slow run. It is not unusual for flyers to fly their planes to them and catch them. There is no dice-and-slice prop on the nose. Note: Nothing against dedicated power flyers just pointing out the levels of hazard associated with each type of flying.

SoCal GliderGuider

U.S. Constituion, First Amendment.

SoCal GliderGuider

You can not direct a safety video at the unsafe unless you know who the unsafe are. You can make safety videos per catagory and include them on one DVD. A DVD is the cheapest form to reproduce. Production costs are the same. I send out CDR's of the extended family pictures I am scanning and archiving. My cost first class is about $1.50 each. This includes the blank CDR, slim plastic case, cardboard liner, 5 x 7 envelope and first class postage. It does not include my time.

As to the insurance side of this discussion: Yes you can change an organization. In this case it may take some serious "head rolling" of the established staff as it's obvious that the EC is just window dressing.

rw Guinn

gee- he got one right.
US Constitution doesn't say much about our having to pay heed to what you spout...

Roger
"If a billion people believe a wrong thing to be true, it is still a wrong thing"

DanSavage

My Feedback: (5)

1st Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Is the AMA a part of Congress?

The 1st amendment, like the rest of the BoR apply only to the government, not private organizations.

Dan