tailskid

My Feedback: (34)

"I personally have been in the hobby for over 53 years now (started young) and I learn something everytime I read a freeflight or control line speed article. I am addicted to RC, yes, but not blind to the other aspects of the hobby"

I may have a year or two on ya Ben, but I couldn't agree more with you concerning the mag. They have some very good authors and like you said, you can learn something - but only if you are will'n [sm=punching.gif]

Jerry

Hossfly

deleted

Hossfly

For a start try:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/New_...2725320/tm.htm

People see what they want to see. Was just surfing the TV News. Both CNN ([:'(]) and FOX at same time spouting out Michael Jackson.[sm=angry.gif] and such rather than what China is doing in South and Central America. No one wants to see/ hear what is real. [&o]

Yep, I would like to be the EVP, no doubt about it. There would be some significant changes in how AMA does business.
However Ben. unless that cold is ongoing for many years, it's NOT the cold medicine muddling YOUR thought processes.
Of course you don't have to worry about any changes at AMA because I will never get elected to the position. However you might want to be looking for another excuse for your messed up thought processes should you ever get off that "cough medicine". [>:]

J_R

Hi Horrace

This is an interesting post, even the part I snipped. This is the thread where you made a, so far, unsupported assertion that money was spent without authorization by the MA staff, in the best simulation of Dan Rather.

You go on to say that you will not be elected, in your own opinion. I agree, but, never the less...

The part I find really interesting is your assertion that, if somehow you were elected EVP, there would be sweeping changes. Or at least, that seems to be the implication, i.e. “There would be some significant changes in how AMA does business”.

The EVP position carries with it a definition in the AMA by-laws:
"The Executive Vice President shall be the Chief Financial Officer of the AMA, shall monitor the financial and corporate affairs of the AMA, make an annual report to the membership regarding the financial affairs of the AMA; and shall make periodic reports, not less than quarterly, to the Executive Council regarding financial matters of the AMA, and shall assume the duties of the President in the event of a vacancy as described in Section 2. until such vacancy is filled."

The title of CFO is bestowed by virtue of the by-laws. The authority set forth for the CFO is also bestowed by the by-laws and is limited to monitoring financial and corporate affairs, making an annual report to the membership, and making periodic reports to the EC. That's it. In addition, of course, the EVP has the authority of any VP.

By what authority were you planning to make significant changes? Through motions made to the EC? The EVP/CFO is not a staff position and must work through the EC to get anything not authorized by the by-laws done. He holds one vote in 14 potential votes on the EC. The title of CFO, in any corporation, is an unfilled vessel, except for the authority granted by the BOD.

Please don't dis this, I am genuinely curious.

JR

Ben Lanterman

Inheret damage - interesting concept. Since the AMA took over MA (or vice versa) I have subscribed to Backyard Flyer, 3D Flyer, Fly RC, Quiet Flyer and two simply fine internet magazine sites. Lots of damage there.

Do you really think RCM would have kept the AMA pages and provided coverage of non RC activities? Don D. was a fighter and the AMA a good target but that was then, this is now how many years later. See if RCM would host the pages now in this economy. Without MA the only multi-coverage magazine is Flying Models (which I subscribe to also). We need more than that even if it has to be on the shoulders of each AMA member's checkbook. The only thing we are doing wrong is not giving them away free at the hobby shops.

The rest I defer to JR who put it so nicely I could only mess it up.

rcmiket

I've asked this before and nobody cares or knows but here goes. I know we need a "newsletter" for the IRS guys. Why monthly, why glossy pages? Why can't we have a newsletter once a quarter? Look if this thing is not wanted or needed and can't pay for itself then put it to sleep. There's always a cheaper and smarter way of doing things. Seems to me the money could be put to better use, like back to the clubs. I've sent Dave nad Sandy the sam question and am waiting a reply. Thanks-Mike

J_R

rcmiket

The fact is that a newsletter is no longer a requirement by the IRS. For that matter, neither is the publication of a magazine, per se. However, the AMA comes so close to not meeting the requirments for a 501 (c) 3 that the magizine is required, de facto. There is simply no alternative to publishing one.

It also appears, in spite of what is said in this forum, that the magazine is viewed by the membership as something that is desirable. Keep in mind that if what you read here was accurate, Dave Mathewson would have won the election in a landslide. Just as with that election, the feelings on the magazine, here, are not representive of the membership.

rcmiket

So a monthly newsletter is the "law" Ok then why not newspaper type to cut cost? Lets charge the advertisers rates more in line with the "real world" Seems to me its just to easy to spend money when its not yours in the first place.Thanks Mike

Ben Lanterman

I'll throw in an answer to that Mike but I have serious prejudice issues from a photographer and artist standpoint. I hate photos on newsprint. If I am going to get a magazine I want it glossy, slick and beautifully done. I honestly think the rest of the world does also. Keep in mind you are talking about the difference in cost that is a cup of fancy coffee a week.

You get a nice magazine than often has the best photography I can produce over a weekend and several weeks of post photo work. It can take you hours to read and enjoy. Look at my stuff. It's good. All for the price of a cup of coffee. It's a darn nice deal in my opinion but as I said I am definitely prejudiced.

The interesting thing (as was noted by JR) is that the only place I have heard gripes about the magazine being forced down someone's throat is on this forum. I know lots of guys with years of magazines in shelves and thoroughly enjoy them. I don't know one "real world" person (I know lots of modelers) that throws it in the trash when it comes.

The magazine isn't really what is in question, that is the real problem as seen by folks, it is just a handy target. It's a target for folks who have been slighted, ignored, repressed, whatever and are not getting their way.

In any large organization in life there are things needing cleaned up, streamlined, places to save money here and there and so on. And there are folks who will never like what is being done because they are not the ones giving the commands and it gripes them pretty badly. They look around and the handiest thing is the very nice magazine that shows up every month.

The brain is shut down and the complaining begins.

J_R

Actually, the monthly publication of a magazine is what is required. As near as I can tell, there is no longer any reference in the IRS docs on 501 (c) 3 that even mention a newsletter any more, though there was in the past. There are references to publishing a magazine.

Where the advertising is concerned, one of three possibilities exist. I have asked about them without getting a straight answer.
1. We can not sell all the available advertising space at the current rates
2. We can sell all the advertising at the current rates, but there is no more demand.
3. We can sell more advertising than space permits.

If choice 3 is the case, the rates could be raised. If choice 1 is the case, other methods of selling the ads could be tried in an effort to increase income. The same is possible for choice 2. If the current method of selling advertising is considered efficient and effective, rates need to reflect which situation exists.

Keep in mind that there are advertising limits, in terms of percentage of pages from both the IRS and USPS, so an unlimited number of pages can not be sold, only a percentage. As near as I have been able to determine, that percentage is about 40%.

I have suggested before that only an outside third party could objectively evaluate the running the magazine. It could be that it is awful, and it could be that it is perfect. Opinions of anyone other than a third party expert are just that, opinions. If it costs a few bucks to get an accurate assessment, so what?

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Hi Mike,

You are not the only one, others certainly "care".

In the past, my initial questions into why we needed the magazine were met with the standard responses......to the effect that "we need it because the IRS requires a newsletter". Well I did my own research, as to not just throw the problem at someone else. My few hours at the computer could not turn up this requirement.

Now in the course of doing this research, I looked at the overall requirements to be a charitable organization. Again, no requirement for a newsletter or magazine were found.

Now, in the pursuit of our exemption, I believe we have made the AMA out to be an educational enterprise. Some would say that a printed magazine is required as a prerequisite to be an educatonal enterprise, or at least a key element in this educational endeavor.

Well in an age where I can get an advanced degree over the internet....and "bloggers" are now given press credentials at the White House....online voting is coming soon.....I THINK we could still meet our educational objectives without chopping down untold trees every month....even if the magazine were online and in the exact format it is now, I have to believe many hundreds of thousands of dollars a year would be saved if we did not have to physically print it and mail it out.

Now some might say "there are many in the membership that do not have email" well there may be many who cannot walk to their mailbox in the morning either, so what. And others may say..."well most of the membership wants a magazine" well that might be true but I think the EC should at least discuss it in these times of shrinking membership (and revenue) I strongly believe that some HARSH cost controls are needed at the AMA and this magazine is a big cost for us.

rcmiket

Now that sounds fair a 3rd party looking at the runnings of the magazine. What are the chances? Thanks anyway. MIke

J_R

LOL. Don't confuse me with someone that has some authority.

I have no idea.

In the past, it's my belief no one on the EC had any expertise in publishing. The EC appointment of Don Koranda as ED changes the dynamics. Don does have some expertise, so... we will see.

Keep in mind the EC is untimatley responsible for Model Aviation, just as they are for everything else the AMA does, including counting the paper clips. Having said that, the MA staff is accountable to the Director of Publications. The Director of Publications is responsible to the ED. The ED is responsible to the EC. In other words, the MA staff lies four levels down in the organization. Direct oversite by the EC must be fairly rare. It is much more likely that the ED will have an influence. If he deems it necessary, a third party assessment might be asked of the EC. Rants here would leave you to believe otherwise.

Something else that many fail to take into account is the fact that MA has no income from subscriptions. Something every retail RC magazine does have. The loss comes to about $8 per member. Imagine the accounting situation if they had subsctiption income. Many non-profit organizations are in the same boat. The situation at AMA is not unique.

Ben Lanterman

Matt - one thing - No online magazines ever ...........

No sitting at the computer to read AMA news. It is the worst place and way to read that man has ever devised and I have the best Apple has ever made. We are not designed to stare at a backlit screen to read. The eye works perfectly for reading printed page as well as when we look at the rest of the things in our life. Why? It is designed to detect light level from objects in a reflected light sun light world.

Let's not mess with a good thing.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

If the choice is to run out of money for insurance or dump that magazine, I think the choice is clear.

Ben Lanterman

Matt - That isn't the choice though.

I have often mentioned I subscribe to a lot of model mags and others too. 15 or more. They range from OK to good, the British model mags are quite nice and expensive considering the boat ride over, etc. They are all expensive subscriptions and I don't get insurance. There are some really bad buys in that group also.

Model Aviation is thrown in with the package we get including insurance for how much a year? Not bragging but complaining now - I just spent over $800 for some batteries to fly a big electric. I have a minimotor home to get to the flying field. and the list goes on and on. I am a modern retailers dream child for spending.

I would feel like a total (insert appropriate 3 letter word here) to stand here and say that my insurance through the AMA is costing too much. As I get bounced through life from one major expenditure to another and throw in a couple of heart attacks the cost of the AMA membership is trivial. Less than trivial. I never notice it.

Anyone who has a garage full of RC airplanes, pays the cost of glow fuel, gas to get to the field, has a carrying case full of Lipoly batteries, receivers, etc. and complains about the cost of the magazine is not really complaining about the magazine. It is only symptomatic of a bigger issue. They want to be calling the shots and no one wants them to. So they look around for a target and pick anything close, and it's the Model Aviation that came that day. And away they go.

The blasted magazine doesn't cost me that much no matter which direction you look at it from, the insurance doesn't cost that much, I really don't want to go to the trouble of getting my own insurance, it would be a pain and I am sure it would cost more if I did it so I go with the AMA.

But again it isn't an either or proposition. It isn't a run out of money because of the magazine thing.

If the issue is about how headquarters are ran, who is president, can it be done more efficiently? - well sure it probably can and that's what elections are for. But don't pick on the magazine as the big hairy deal. It is a rather small frog in the pond.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Mr. Lanterman,

Most of us on this forum are concerned members of the AMA and are always looking for ways to improve the organization. Most of us are aware of the losses the AMA membership took when dues were raised to pay for stuff the organization really does not need. There are few who are simply detractors, but they are in the vocal minority. Too bad you have chosen to ignore that fact.

I have followed your comments closely and you generally make some valid points, even when you ignore the concerns others speak of. However, your good points are destroyed by your own animus toward the general membership as can be seen scattered throughout your many posts where you clearly disdain those who do not like the status quo. The damage your kind of 'thinking' is bringing to the AMA is clearly seen in our declining membership.

I am sorry but even though you cross swords with Horrace the Horrible very well and make some excellent points, you shot your credibility all to bits when you said: "We need more than that even if it has to be on the shoulders of each AMA member's checkbook." Then you go further down the slippery slope by suggesting the problems some folks have with MA are personal rather than institutional. Clearly you would rather spend other modelers money on things YOU think are important than look at ways to stop the decline of AMA membership. It appears by your remarks as if you and your brethren are in positions of financial gain within MA that needs to be protected and the rest of the AMA membership can just go pound sand.

In short Mr. Lanterman your approach clearly demonstrates a very serious moral bankruptcy that is astounding as it is reprehensible. Unfortunately it also seems to be what has been demonstrated to the AMA membership by 'your' magazine for the last few years by the lack of communication, weak (and in error) articles, failure to be competitive, and inability to change. Most of us here want MA to be OUR magazine.

Ben Lanterman

Jim, I am not that bad. A bit of explainaton is in order perhaps. Read this to the bottom if you would.

Morally bankrupt, not really - I present an opposite view to what is presented and say up front every time exactly what my interest are and how I feel. I think that is pretty honest don't you. I said I sold all of two articles (hope to have some more if they are worth printing, I have ideas for beginner airplanes - I am a retired aerodynamicistics after all) and so do care about the magazine, Not all do. My nephew works there, big hairy deal. Your nephew probably works somewhere too but I doubt you let your ethics fly out the window when talking about his place of employment. Jim we both are grown men, we can think for ourselves can't we.

What is clear is that I am very intolerant of someone griping about the cost of a magazine. Jim they are complaining about the cost of one magazine, and it's a pretty good one too - heck it's not perfect but then most of the aerodynamic articles in Fly RC are wrong and it's a good magazine also. I like every magazine I take including the pablum that MAN has become. It is at least tasty pablum. Isn't MA one of the two general interest published. Most of us do want MA to be OUR magazine, that is the reason I have contributed to it. I am certainly not getting rich in the process. Write an article today and if it gets published, not a sure thing by any means, the lack of big numbers on the check are sad.

Do notice, I hope I have said that there are guys who care about ways to improve the organization and that there is a process to take care of it - the ballot box. But attacking the magazine as the focal point of other interests is nonsense. I don't disdain anyone, no one deserves that and I don't like it when it happens to me or you, but I have pointed out that the guy with the big chappachino (did I spell that right) at the field griping about the cost of the magazine has priorities mixed up. He is usually driving a big truck with several models in back. Don't you see a little strangeness in that. There aren't too many guys pedding bicycles to the field today.

The losses the AMA took when the dues were raised weren't the guys who were and still are the heart and soul of the AMA like you. You and I love model airplanes and probably have been modelling all our lives. What the AMA lost were the fringe guys that had nearly zero interest, we both know that. It's just human nature.

What I do worry about is the guy who sees a big conspiracy behind every airplane.

Do be careful about morally bankrupt and caring about the AMA comments though. Every year for the last 7 years I have presented "seminars" (the descriptive word that comes to mind) to first and second grade kids at several schools in the St. Louis area. I introduce them to airplanes, RC included, and we make the AMA penny flier. This is my effort, not a clubs or any organization. In most of the casses we have built models ranging from the Penny Flyer through the Delta Dart. It obviously takes several sessions and a lot of coffee and aspirin for a full class of kids. It was done during regular class hours. I would guess that I have presented model airplanes to almost 1000 enthusastic kids over the last few years. How many did become AMA members I don't know of course. Jiim, an interesting sidelight, the girls regularly beat the boys in tests of distance we do. Everyone tosses the Penny Flyer and then measures the distance traveled. A lot of fun and the looks on the faces make the work worth it.

I put my efforts in the direction they should go, teaching the children. A bunch of adults standing around griping just don't get things done and does tend to get the focus of my intolerance. Do I want the checkbooks of the AMA members to handle what is needed for the AMA, I do it gladly, if that is all the individual member is willing to give. That big drain on the checkbook for one member is exactly how much? Perhaps my retirement disability check is too much and I can't put the cost into proper perspective.

Enough griping, I haven't had any real complaints about what you have written, disagreements sure, but do be sure to keep it into perspective. There isn't a lot of morally bankruptcy going on here by anyone. Most are no doubt pretty reprehensible though.

The old fart in the yellow shirt is me.

J_R

Hi Matt

Is there something that leads you to believe this is the situation? It's not something I have heard from any source. IF the AMA were to continue down the path of declining membership for a couple of more years, it could get to be a problem. From the EC memebers I have talked to, they are inclined to cut costs IF it comes to that, rather than raise dues.

As I understand, the cost of insurance is stable after several years of increases, so that is a definate plus.

It also appears that Don Koranda is evaluating each area of the AMA's operation looking for ways to improve service to the membership. He is looking at programs that are no longer relevant, and promotiong those that are more relevant. Sometimes, simple things. The plans service has been laying dorminat for a couple of years. Although Don can not be given all the credit, the plans service, and the potential to produce income is now a reality. Whether you like the DVD or bank credit card programs, they are producing substantial income.

Personally, I would bet Koranda will reverse the membership decline this year.

EVP Doug Holland oversaw a quarter of a million dollar increase in the investment markets last year.

In short, things are looking up, so... why so glum in your outlook?

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Mr. Lanterman,

Two things for you to consider.

The first is an observation that you really should learn (even if it is painful) to use an artist's paint brush when talking about folks who care rather than the house painters broom you wield so well.

The second is a question you really need to find an answer. Exactly how high should AMA dues be to attract and maintain the kind of member you espouse?


I know that the current rate does not attract those who might be educated, so maybe your apparent approach of pocket book breaker dues seems to be the other better answer.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

I believe in business you need to be proactive. As Lee Iacocca said, a monkey can make the right business decision while possessing 100% of the infomation, the trick is to make the right decision with much less than that. Waiting and trying to get 100% of the information is a recipe for unmitigated disaster.

The membership is declining, meanwhile RC is getting bigger than ever, with a new low cost entry point with the park flier. Park Fliers largely do not need the AMA. So revenue is dropping, with no real strategy to attract these new members (at least that I have seen, maybe there is a secret plan or something).

So revenue is dropping, but the costs are going up at Muncie.....at least one new (presumably) expensive employee, upcoming marketing "blitz"....new website, etc.

And Lanterman, I don't even know where you are coming from, I've got maybe $20K in turbine engines alone, so 58 bucks is not killing me either....but I got NOTHING if the AMA cannot convince tens of thousands of new people to join each year. I need all of those members to help spread the risk and subsidize the site insurance I need....I cannot enjoy my hobby in a ball filed or a small park.

The magazine does NOTHING to attract new members, and IMHO the magazine is ineffective in keeping members once we have them. I am not sure how much the hard copy of the magazine costs to produce, but I bet it is a lot, and that money could be spent to get these new members, or to pay the important bills (insurance) with our lower revenue base.

I wish Koranda well, but I cannot tell you how many times I have seen those kind of projections, usually from the sales and marketing group....we call them the "hockey stick" charts.......those type of charts always show some point in the future (the knee of the hockey stick) when some miracle is going to happen and sales is going to go through the roof......


I'll let you guess how many times I have seen those kind of projections come true.

Ben Lanterman

"Exactly how high should AMA dues be to attract and maintain the kind of member you espouse?"

I have never espoused a type of member that I know of unless you count those that should like model airplanes. It is the wrong place for car and boat activities.

I have said that someone who drives up to the RC field with a car full of airplanes (which are the guys I typically see at our flying field) shouldn't complain about dues of $58 a year (if I read the AMA site correctly, it's what came up) - that is 15 cents a day - please check my math.

15 cents a day - I don't consider those pocket breaking dues. Has inflation changed that this is the price of a steak dinner now. It is hard to find anything that cheap nowadays.

If I were a guy making microflim models or some of the terrific indoor scale ships then it starts to be a large percentage of the cost of modelling - but then again my need for insurance would be small so I might drop it.

But aren't we talking about the magazine? MAN is $30 a year. RCM is $28 a year. Flying Models is $35 a year. Those are all nice magazines and are fair prices.

So for the cost of what I consider a good magazine and approx $30 a year I get the AMA and it's programs and insurance. 10 cents a day or so for AMA benefits. That simply cannot be considered pocket breaking anywhere.

Jim - certainly the AMA as in any large organization has spots that need streamlining and some costs can be saved. But is the magazine the really big hairy thing it is made out to be.

Whenever someone bickers about something that is less than $0.25 a day - something else is really the problem. That is what I am trying to get across and put into perspective.

Ben Lanterman

Matt do you really think that with all of the watch dogs present that we are going to wake up someday and not have any insurance. Pretty unlike in this particular case.

Actually if you can figure out a way of getting the parkfliers into the AMA you would be my hero as well as many others. You need to literally have the cost of the airplane include the cost of insurance. And we know that won't fly (absolutely no pun intended). I try to do it with some education programs, not depending on the AMA as other do. But the problem is in the need to educate the parkfliers of the need for insurance - and hopefully the other benefits of joining the AMA. Heck I just saw several pages of benefits on the AMA site. Maybe then we would keep them in the hobby long enough to enjoy it. Who knows for sure.

But as you indicated, it is a problem without an easy answer.

The magazine by itself won't do anything if in the heart of the flyer there isn't the desire to fly RC (or whatever). Do you really expect MA to take a young person and with a few readings convert them? I didn't think so even as I posed the question. Will the magazine keep a member who has no interest in the hobby - certainly not.

Do I as a member and avid modeller enjoy getting the magazine, yes. Isn't that a realistic expectation.

Where am I coming from. The image of the magazine dragging the AMA into utter collapse as an organization (or any president or EC for that matter) is not an accurate one - in my opinion of course.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Seems to me that you think all of the watchdogs are just "alarmist" or disgruntled. I am not alarmist, and I am not disgruntled. I have seen the EC in action and I was very impressed with everyone there. I just wanted to do my research before I ask my DVP to get the abolishment of the hardcopy magazine on the EC agenda.


I certainly did not make this hyperbolic statement, I am just trying to save money, and that magazine has got to be in the top 2 or 3 expense categories (after salaries), a very big target in any cost cutting exercise. No one likes to cost cut but someone has to do it if the revenue is shinking. Trying to "grow" out of a cost mess is a cop out IMHO.

J_R

Hi Matt

I have to admit, it took me several minutes to quit laughing as I read your post.

Lee Iaccoa was one of the kings at producing hockey stick projections. His background was the reason he was hired. Chrysler was in a much worse way then the AMA is when Iaccoa took over.

You, personally, don’t need the AMA’s insurance. You fly at a field where it is not required, and IIRC you carry a substantial amount of personal insurance. Is your true concern that you will not have a place to work if the AMA fails, since the company you represent supplies modeling products?

Let’s take a look back in the history of the AMA. Your company, and many of the rest of the new breed of modeling companies do not do what others did in the past. Not since the days of Carl Goldberg and Glen Sig have we seen the huge (relative to the value of the dollar then and now) contributions from modeling related companies. Maybe it is time for the companies to, once again, start picking up some of the expense of maintaining the AMA.

The magazine, or previously a newsletter mailed to the membership predates the insurance function of the AMA. It may be that a younger generation sees the organization through different eyes than some of that remember “how it was”.

As for Koranda, he will either prove himself, as Iococca did, or he will not. His pervious track record is no less impressive than Ioccoa’s in their selected fields. Lets hope he shows the same type of results.

In the mean time, you might discuss making some large company donations to the AMA, not just to your company, but to others that owe their existence to the AMA.