mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

I do have personal insurance for several million, but I fly about 10 times a year at jet rallys, most of which I am sure take advantage of the AMA site insurance.

Point of clarification,

My company makes compressed audio and video players for car compnies...our newest one goes on all GM corporate mini vans:

http://www.phatnoise.com/about_us/release7.php

I am vp of engineering there, but I do not think even I can get my company to donate to the AMA!!

RCUniverse has strict rules,in the Jet Forum, if you even get a free t shirt from a company you have to put your "affiliation" into your signature line.

Might I suggest you lobby Futaba/JR/Great Planes and the like for your AMA contributions!

Koranda as Iaccoa "redux"??......I hope so! Maybe the Feds will loan him the money to keep the precious magazine going !!

J_R

Hi mr_matt

I apologize for making the assumption that since you are listed in the JetCat Turbine Direct Support forum as an expert that will be fielding questions, that you recieved something more substantial than a t-shirt.

Just be be clear, I have no strong feelings about MA existing. I do believe that it is required to maintain the 501 (c) 3 status. I also believe it is less likely to disappear than the national flying site in Muncie. I will admit that MA is my favorite among the hard copy modeling magazines, but realize that is strictly a personal opinion.

As to soliciting money from the modeling companies for the AMA; that is and has been being done by AMA. Unfortunately, not with the level of success it once was. The current attitudes of manufactures and retailers is reflected in the actions of the radio manufactures. The agreed to meet with the AMA frequecny committee a couple of years ago about their claims that newer recievers could operate with 2 mile seperation instead of 3. When it came time for the meeting, they were MIA.

Ben Lanterman

"Seems to me that you think all of the watchdogs are just "alarmist" or disgruntled. I am not alarmist, and I am not disgruntled. "

Matt, really I don't. Contrary to what you might think I am a pretty normal, calm , reasonable person. I tend to be strictly the middle of the road and am considered a peacemaker amoung a lot of my friends. Sometimes things appear on the BS radar and get my attention. The seemingly strange desire to dump the magazine is one of those. Especially when I put numbers on what it costs me per day. It just seems strange.

You are not an alarmist or disgruntled, you don't write that way and I don't think I said that. You might note I usually say what I think :-) for better or worse, there is no guessing or beating around the bush. For normal folks like you I really perfer the concept of the "Loyal Opposition" and it is what all of us should be at times if necessary. It is possible to keep things in proper perspective. Unfortunately a lot of folks come across as grumpy old men, sitting in their rockers, rattling their papers and saying, "the world is going to ____ in a hand cart", and then shake their papers some more.

There have been some folks who visit the AMA forums who seem to think Dave B. and his cronys are destroying the AMA. (Of course I might have misunderstood what they wrote) I find it hard to believe that Dave B. has an agenda to go down as the president that ruined the AMA, that would be a bad way to want to be remembered and the ego that drives him surely doesn't want for it to happen that way. My ego is much smaller and I don't want it either.

If it is reasonable to think that what D.B. and friends are doing is being done in the hope of providing the best "stuff" to AMA members that can be done - then I can also consider that the Loyal Opposition also has a reasonable and rational approach to what they are saying. A logical guy would agree I think.

Obviously there are two sides to most every question. I would guess that we can have insurance and a good magazine at a reasonable price. It will be a miracle if the costs can be held down. I just paid $2.00 for a gallon of gas, how can I expect other things I want to stay low also.

"I certainly did not make this hyperbolic statement, I am just trying to save money, and that magazine has got to be in the top 2 or 3 expense categories (after salaries), a very big target in any cost cutting exercise. No one likes to cost cut but someone has to do it if the revenue is shinking. Trying to "grow" out of a cost mess is a cop out IMHO. "

OK, I have no idea what a hyperbolic statement is, not fair..... Personally I don't want to cut the cost if I lose insurance or the great magazine. If the price must go up and the Loyal Opposition can see that it is reasonable, that no one is skimming cash off the top, then let it go up. I get yelled at for saying it, but we all can afford the cost even if it doubled this year. It just isn't that much money. Children, guys with ten kids, widows with flying sons, yes there are examples to whom it will be a hardship - I don't mind giving them a break and raising the dues some more it it keeps them in the hobby. Yes there is a limit to everything of course, and no I won't pay your dues Jim :-) that is a joke hopefully... take it as one, no more than that.

Can't we keep a handle on the actual numbers involved and keep the retoric to the same level. What was it, $58 a year, $0.15 a day, double our dues to $0.30 a day. How much yelling and ranting does that much money buy you anywhere else? And no that doesn't mean I want it done in everything in life, we are trying to keep this restricted to AMA/magazine/insurance stuff.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Hi Ben,

Just a quick note. I am not for the abolishment of the printed MA in order to lower the dues. I am with you, the AMA insurance is worth vastly more than 58 bucks a year to me....that is not my point.

My point is, I think the AMA is heading for decreasing membership for the long term. I would like to get a handle on some cost models that keep the AMA viable down to some very low number of members, even 50K. And I agree with JR, that might involve the divestiture of the flying site as well.

THe best time to get costs under control is when you have money....it is also the hardest time for a bureaucracy to do anything, just human nature I guess.

Hyperbolic \Hy`per*bol"ic\, Hyperbolical \Hy`per*bol"ic*al\, a.
[L. hyperbolicus, Gr. ?: cf. F. hyperbolique.]
1. (Math.) Belonging to the hyperbola; having the nature of
the hyperbola.

2. (Rhet.) Relating to, containing, or of the nature of,
hyperbole; exaggerating or diminishing beyond the fact;
exceeding the truth; as, an hyperbolical expression.
``This hyperbolical epitaph.'' --Fuller.

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

i could care less about the staying or going of the mag.
i just want it to be in the assets column at the end of the year, like we were promised it would be way back when it was acquired. so far that has been a broken promise
i see no reason that it shouldn't turn a profit of some kind, after all, ben, you named off several other mags that mostly have higher ad rates, lower circulation, and no one forcing anyone to take em, and they all make a profit. WHY CAN"T OURS????? and yes, we would have to pay some tax on that profit, but even that beats the current loss situation.

Ben Lanterman

mongo - sounds good to me, profit is fine - are we allowed to make a profit?? I really don't need the magazine itself to make a profit - I pay the $58 and get insurance, enjoy belonging to the AMA and receive a nice magazine. I consider it a good deal.

Who was in charge when the magazine was acquired and why did they promise that, perhaps they were going in with mistaken concepts about where the magazine could be put assets and liabilities wise in an organization like the AMA. You would probably need to ask the guys who did the acquiring at the time - how many of them are still around? Promises made by guys long gone don't count for much.

All I did was list some magazines and their costs to me, I have no idea if they make a profit or perhaps are one day from going broke. Modeling is such an addiction with me that they don't have to force their magazines on me, I tend to search them out :-) It is a heck of a lot of fun to be in this hobby.

Matt - I didn't say you made the hyperbolic statement, but I should have added that it seems to be a prevailing thought of some, not you. However, now that I know the word I'll work it into the conversation somewhere.

Aside from the mag and into your divestiture of assets comments - What is needed is a way of getting the park fliers into the organization but realistically that won't happen until they are pushed out of the parks to our flying fields where in a lot of cases our dues are a lot more than the $58 and the fields are close to new members. I don't think a declining membership is a fault of the organization, it's that models are just not that interesting to the modern generation.

One thing might happen though - if we keep hacking off bits and pieces to appease our immediate need to not raise dues from the $58 level - soon there are no bits left. I would think it is in our interest to have a viable public presense and image. I am not sure there is a value to be associated with that.

Hossfly

WOW! Mongo you are dead on target. It is obvious that you have noticed Lanterman avoids a real discussion of the point that several here -- especially you and I -- try to make. Lanterman once left this forum with the proverbial "I ain't comin' back!" exit. However here he is back. Makes me wonder the real reason and just who is twisting his arm to return to tell us just how wonderful it is in the AMA/MA realm.

Lanterman fails to address the simple fact that we are NOT saying the magazine is NOT good but that "The AMA's non-related business, Model Aviation should be a stand-alone item in the competitive free market and should turn a profit for the parent unit."
Nothing about the quality of the magazine. Simply that if it be commercial quality, let it operate as a market player.

I firmly believe that if such was the case, then the other modeling media would gradually return to reporting AMA activities and this would bring AMA before thousands of new potential members. While the AMA runs for some Credit Card Gimmick at a promise of $900,000 over 7 years, a 5% annual increase per year of membership (using estimated 150,000 current adult members) could return $1,325,750 in just TWO years. Again AMA wants to chase rainbows while standing over the pot of gold.

One last item: The magazine is NOT required for the current IRC 501 (c) (3) status. One other 501 (c) (3) unit I belong to, actually I am a Charter Founder, -- THE AMERICAN AIR MUSEUM IN BRITAIN -- simply sends a 4 page newsletter on a quarterly basis.

Ben Lanterman

Horrace, you just don't like me do you?

Why do I come back? It's like watching two trains speeding toward each other. You know there is going to be a wreck, you try to look away for fear of the carnage, then you find yourself peeking again.
Why do I come back? It is an interesting forum in spite of my obviously misguided differences with some of its members.


Horrace, you do have a lot of knowledge about the AMA - how about ........

If you present a plan to make Model Aviation profitable I will vote for you for president when you run.

If you present real data that making MA self sustaining and competitive will increase membership I will put you up for president next time (assuming I can by rule).

If you present real data that the lack of coverage by other magazines of AMA functions is causing loss of the present AMA membership I will apologize.

If you present real data that Model Aviation's influence is what is causing loss of future AMA membership I will apologize and vote for you.

Ben

J_R

Perhaps if the AMA had an accredited museum you might have a case. Since the AMA doesn't, you don't.

Perhaps it is time to read that set of books containing the IRS code that you love to brag about owning.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Sure sounds just like another tax and spend sort of guy to me. You keep talking a good story about how very important it is to spend money but you never address the issues of return on the investment. In the not to distant past dues were $38 and look how much more 'stuff' the AMA owns and controls now that dues are $58! Raise the dues some more and see exactly how many more members your approach will attract. Maybe we can get the park flyers that represent the fastest growing segment of our hobby to join the AMA if the dues were $100! What do you think?

Your approach has been running the AMA and putting together MA for the last several years and not had a good impact on the growth of the AMA. While your kind of thinking is killing the AMA, the HOBBY is growing. Clearly something has got to change and you have the choice of changing with it or dealing with the left overs. Actually, you have another choice and that is to be an agent of change.

Rather than twist and defend a major cost center, step outside the box and see if you can come up with an idea to improve the membership retention instead of throwing out the canard that they were not real modelers. Your arguments are beginning to sound just as valid and reasonable of some presented by Horrace, and that is a complement. I guess that is why you attack him so much, the old "I'm a better liberal than you" fight.

Hossfly

Not sending any dinner invitations. However you're a Purdue grad. in B.S. Aerospace Engineering, which also runs in my family along with the M.S. Educational Leadership, Troy State Univ. AL. So I can't be too hard on YOU, however, IMO, your AMA politics really SUCK! [>:] Now while you sob like a spoiled child with such childish '$hot' as 'you don't like me', I can only really say that personalities are not my item; only the accomplishment of the objective is my reason. I have said herein before and I say it again, I like DB as a person/modeler far too much because I have great remorse when I have to object to his direction for AMA, thus opposing his position as much as I do. I can drink a brew with an opposing politician. Personality only comes into play when the person is of the criminal persuasion.

Yep, and Ol' Slick didn't have sex with that woman!

#1. I don't present absolute plans until the campaign gets going. Even now there are tangents in AMA to address items that I have previously suggested and there are far two many terms that I initiated such as "....worthwhile recreational activity..." floating around for me to lay out a plan for those that need some prodding to act as if they are moving in such direction.

DATA: It's all there for those without self promoting objectives and/or rose colored glasses to readily observe:
Some do see it. For example let's revisit the last Ex. Council meeting:

>>>>>"J. Hager and T. Schwyn are in the process of addressing what AMA can do to attract those still considered in the renewal cycle (those who have not renewed their membership yet.)
Membership Report—J. Hager: J. Hager reported that membership is running 95% compared to the same time last year; hobby shops are bringing in the most new members for 2005 (1371<<<<<<<<

So all is not well in the renewal program. Seems the clubs aren't getting any new applications. Wonder why? Maybe if RCM, FM, and MAN, all available on the news-stands were displaying AMA events and news, more people would be aware of this AMA thing and explore it. Hobby shops are doing most of the new members! Could it be that MA which is available in some HSs have something to do with that? Would it not be something if those free market magazines were also delivering the message outside the choir? WELL, LANTERMAN, there is data that YOUR METHOD AIN"T WORKIN"! [X(]

>>>>>>"Model Aviation—R. Kurek: The magazine staff has been addressing the issue of making the magazine a more effective communication tool for the members; and they are in the process of redesigning/reformatting the magazine. The ED is looking for close cooperation between magazine staff and the Publications Committee to make the appropriate changes to enhance the effectiveness of the magazine as a tool to communicate with the members. Kurek should share staff ideas with the Publications Committee and suggestions from Council should be forwarded to B. Brown."<<<<<<<<<<

Even the staff recognizes that the magazine bureaucracy isn't doing the job it is suppose to do. Of course what isn't said is that the magazine is really doing the job THEY REALLY WANT which is simply to provide nice jobs for a bunch of "good ol' boys" at the AMA member's expense.

>>>>>>>"D. Mathewson noted the decline in membership and expressed an opinion that AMA should stop using the dues increase as a crutch or excuse for the declining membership; there is a significant difference between what is happening now and what has happened in the past. These days, the sale of hobby-related items is up yet AMA membership is down; data will show that the percentage of decline this time around is far greater than it ever was during the last dues increase."
<<<<<<<<<<<

As I said, Lanterman, not everyone is wearing those rose-colored glasses or is biased with personal self-serving objectives rather than the overall good of the worthwhile activity sport-hobby. As the trades refer to Dan Rather as "Rather Biased" then IMO, you sir, are far more biased to serve yourself than the overall good of model aviation.
BTW I am more than just RC. I was very active in CL and FF. To me it is all model aviation.
Edited to add FF/CL DATA!!

tailskid

My Feedback: (34)

" M.S. Educational Leadership, Troy State Univ. AL."

Hey Horace.....

My daughter graduated from TROY STATE (when it was a State college) and my youngest son spent one year there in Pre-Med! So do we get an invite

Jerry

Ben Lanterman

"Sure sounds just like another tax and spend sort of guy to me. You keep talking a good story about how very important it is to spend money but you never address the issues of return on the investment. In the not to distant past dues were $38 and look how much more 'stuff' the AMA owns and controls now that dues are $58! Raise the dues some more and see exactly how many more members your approach will attract. Maybe we can get the park flyers that represent the fastest growing segment of our hobby to join the AMA if the dues were $100! What do you think? "

Jim I never said it was important to spend money. I have no idea about return on investment - I an a reasonably good aero engineer and a rather pitiful investment counselor. I leave that to those guys who know what they are doing and I will gladly back anyone with a good plan. I am not saying to raise dues to attract members, you are pushing this the way you want it to sound but you are the only one saying that - at least when I read what has been said so far.

I said that if it is needed I am happy to pay more money to keep my insurance and keep the magazine coming. I have never tied that into getting new members have I? You are the only one tieing the concepts together. Why? It makes me sound like something I am not. It's bad logic and we both know it.

"Your approach has been running the AMA and putting together MA for the last several years and not had a good impact on the growth of the AMA. While your kind of thinking is killing the AMA, the HOBBY is growing. Clearly something has got to change and you have the choice of changing with it or dealing with the left overs. Actually, you have another choice and that is to be an agent of change. "

I don't have an approach to running the AMA, no one has asked my opinion yet! - reading through what I have written as a basis, I have said that I would vote for Horrace if he has a better approach than presently used. Is that the approach you are talking about? So if I agree with Horrace's plan (and I would if it were a good one, he does think about it and has a great background) then that would kill off the AMA? Jim what I have said that to keep flying and keep my insurance I would be more than happy to pay higher dues and I do think folks griping about it are a little skewed in their priorities and have questioned what those priorities might be. Doesn't that sound about right?

Is being totally willing to change (as noted by my written promises) a wrong way to approach the subject? I just want someone yelling about the need for a change to lay out a plan and show specific facts that prove his plan would work. I then promised to back that plan. How is that not being willing to change. I put it in writing - what more do you want. You accuse me of using a broad brush, I used a very thin easy to read brush when I made the promises of change. Me be an agent of change, I don't have the skills or physical ability to be one, nor would I be willing to live with the jabs it takes. I am in awe of anyone who runs for president of AMA, whoever it is. They are sterner stuff than I am. What I have promised to do is back a better plan and put it in writing........

"Rather than twist and defend a major cost center, step outside the box and see if you can come up with an idea to improve the membership retention instead of throwing out the canard that they were not real modelers. Your arguments are beginning to sound just as valid and reasonable of some presented by Horrace, and that is a complement. I guess that is why you attack him so much, the old "I'm a better liberal than you" fight."

I have never accused anyone of not being real modelers, just having passing casual interest in the hobby. Don't be too naive, we both have seen them by the dozens through the years. I have trained guys that when they decided they were fine to go on their own quit after a crash or so. It takes a stubborn person to perservere through the learning stage. The kid who buys the $40 foam flyer, finds it won't fly and quits - recognizing him is just being realistic. I have no idea how to keep a member. I'll repeat that, I have no idea how to keep a member. I stayed in it for the love of the hobby, you can't force someone to love anything.

All I can do is promise to back someone with a good plan and will prove it is a good plan.

Horrace.......

In spite of Horrace's belief that I am incapable of independent thought and am part of a big conspiracy to sweet talk Muncie (Horrace must have an interesting life, conspiracies behind every wing, danger waiting to destroy the AMA around every corner ..... ) I am indeed capable of independent thought and think for myself pretty well most of the time. It's interesting, Horrace has talked to Dave B. much more than I have and yet he thinks I am the AMA's agent. Possibly it is Horrace that is the agent of Dave....... Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Consider that it is entirely possible that my thoughts are my own.

"#1. I don't present absolute plans until the campaign gets going. ................ some prodding to act as if they are moving in such direction. "

Just trust you then - not much to build trust on here.

"DATA: It's all there for those without self promoting objectives and/or rose colored glasses to readily observe:
Some do see it. For example let's revisit the last Ex. Council meeting:

>>>>>"J. Hager and T. Schwyn are in the process of addressing what AMA can do to attract those still considered in the renewal cycle (those who have not renewed their membership yet.)
Membership Report—J. Hager: J. Hager reported that membership is running 95% compared to the same time last year; hobby shops are bringing in the most new members for 2005 (1371<<<<<<<< "

How is that data? How does that indicate the magazine is or isn't doing anything? It is meaningless if you are trying to lay out a plan. It does mean the average AMA club/member isn't bringing in new members. That the source of parkfliers, the hobby shop, is getting the message across and I would think that is a good thing.

"So all is not well in the renewal program. Seems the clubs aren't getting any new applications. Wonder why? Maybe if RCM, FM, and MAN, all available on the news-stands were displaying AMA events and news, more people would be aware of this AMA thing and explore it. Hobby shops are doing most of the new members! Could it be that MA which is available in some HSs have something to do with that? Would it not be something if those free market magazines were also delivering the message outside the choir? WELL, LANTERMAN, there is data that YOUR METHOD AIN"T WORKIN"! "

Horrace maybes don't mean anything. Show data that if RCM, FM and MAN were displaying AMA events and news that renewnals would increase - real data, not maybes - I will follow you all the way then but it has to be real facts, not ifs and buts and maybes. Maybe if I were a billionaire the AMA would get some of the cash, maybe if we had 100000 new menbers we could have xxxxxx dollars. Maybes and not facts. No facts so far.

"Model Aviation—R. Kurek: The magazine staff has been addressing the issue of making the magazine a more effective communication tool for the members; and they are in the process of redesigning/reformatting the magazine. The ED is looking for close cooperation between magazine staff and the Publications Committee to make the appropriate changes to enhance the effectiveness of the magazine as a tool to communicate with the members. Kurek should share staff ideas with the Publications Committee and suggestions from Council should be forwarded to B. Brown."

I would hope that the staff would have the drive to enhance the effectiveness of the magazine wouldn't you? Isn't this what you have wanted all these years. At last they are listening to you, send them your specific ideas after you share them here so I can back you. You know how much power I have at HQ.

"Even the staff recognizes that the magazine bureaucracy isn't doing the job it is suppose to do. Of course what isn't said is that the magazine is really doing the job THEY REALLY WANT which is simply to provide nice jobs for a bunch of "good ol' boys" at the AMA member's expense. "

Horrace provide the facts, numbers, etc. not your opinions. If you are going to sway my votes you have to present real data, not guesses or random musings on someone elses plan. Of course maybe they confessed to this to you. Share it. So far you are just guessing. Prove differently and I'll vote for you.

"D. Mathewson noted the decline in membership and expressed an opinion that AMA should stop using the dues increase as a crutch or excuse for the declining membership; there is a significant difference between what is happening now and what has happened in the past. These days, the sale of hobby-related items is up yet AMA membership is down; data will show that the percentage of decline this time around is far greater than it ever was during the last dues increase."

And this shows how the magazine is related to the membership issue how? I see opinions and folks trying to piece it together but no data. A percentage of decline means nothing about the magazine and it's effect on the renewals. The fact that hobby-related items are up could just as well mean that the existing members that are staying with the hobby are spending more. Again there is no data presented. Horrace I am talking about data that can be plotted on X-Y charts with conclusions. Not maybes. Show data and I will back you all the way.

"As I said, Lanterman, not everyone is wearing those rose-colored glasses or is biased with personal self-serving objectives rather than the overall good of the worthwhile activity sport-hobby. As the trades refer to Dan Rather as "Rather Biased" then IMO, you sir, are far more biased to serve yourself than the overall good of model aviation.
BTW I am more than just RC. I was very active in CL and FF. To me it is all model aviation. "

Horrace, using your approach to evaluating statements --- I have to think you have stock in RCM, MAN, etc. You sure seem to push them. How much do you get when MA is shut down? Have you quit beating your wife yet? --- recognize the approach?

I have put my bias right up front, there is no doubt, but I have also said I will back any proven plan you have. How much more do you want? I would certainly like to see the data that you base your statements on. Again I will back any proven plan, approach, MA causing membership loss data, what ever you have. What you have presented is not real data yet, maybes don't cut it.

Self serving - who here is not self serving - be honest and don't lie. If I say to keep my insurance and magazine that I will pay higher rates - I guess that is self serving and I admit it. Being able to fly is more important that all the office politics that go on in Muncie. I guess my seminars with kids aren't worth counting that much when taking stock of promoting the overall good of model aviation?

Again Horrace, show some real data about your concerns and the impact of the magazine, I'll back you all the way if it is valid, not just maybes and what ifs. If you truly cared about the overall good of model aviation you would have never made the comment -

"I don't present absolute plans until the campaign gets going. Even now there are tangents in AMA to address items that I have previously suggested and there are far two many terms that I initiated such as "....worthwhile recreational activity..." floating around for me to lay out a plan for those that need some prodding to act as if they are moving in such direction. "

It sounds a little self serving doesn't it. Instead I would think you would be happy that anyone is using your ideas in any form if it helped in anyway. Isn't that the definition of giving and serving others?

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Mr. Lanterman,
Please read each and every single post YOU made in THIS thread and explain why there are many things you have said that are the exact opposite things you have claimed to have said in post # 88. I am tireing of your duplicity sir, good day.

Hossfly

Hey lanterman!

Do you do Stand-Up also? You really use that Aero schooling well as you are farther out in space than anyone I have ever heard of. Maybe you are contracting something big with NASA? You funny!

HA HA HA. You admit that you have no approach, yet you want a plan that will wok laid out to you. Ha, Ho, Ha, Ho. Man you don't have a clue -- Now that just must be one of your "independent thoughts." Just how would you ever understand a plan? [:-]

If you haven't noticed, I haven't yet been nominated for any position and no campaign is yet underway.

Perhaps in engineering, Lanterman, they did not get into the aspect of marketing very well. In case you haven't noticed, Lanterman, the electric revolution is a real cash cow for the industry.

OH, How dumb of me, Lanterman, I so forget --- right back there in post #50 of this thread you reference the great growth of a LHS and some new magazines. You DO know about the cash growth of the sport, don't you? There you go, just trying to fool ol' Hoss again, you sneaky little devil you![:-]
Hey, you read all those magazines you profess to obtain and yet you don't know what's hot in the current RC industry, yet you want to see a "plan that will work". How would you be able to recognize it?

WELL, SIR AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE, YOU'RE HOLDING ON TO A PLAN THAT IS NOT WORKING AND THERE IS DATA TO SUPPORT THAT FACT. Please let me state one small thing: It is not worth your time to attempt to elevate yourself into a position where I would waste my time seeking your support, regardless of what ever position I may be pursuing. If conditions did ever so warrant I would solicit the support of those that are passionate about the future of the sport, not just middle-of-the- roaders as you so deem yourself. Ya'll take care now!

J_R

The facts are that the 2003 financial statement showed essentially the same costs for MA as in 2002. If the AMA had allocated $18 of dues toward the cost of Model Aviation, as claimed, MA would have showed a net of over a million dollars. The facts show that there was a substantial increase in insurance.

FLIP FLOP, FLIP FLOP

J_R

Grizzly Bear or uninformed bare? No plan needed, just gonna growl at em?

Ben Lanterman

Jim,

Duplicity ? I have told you up front what I am thinking all the time. No lying intended or accidential I hope. I started this whole discussion hard over saying that folks should stop griping about the dues, that raising them is a good idea if it kept my insurance and the magazine that I enjoy coming. I still do think that is a good idea if it keeps the insurance and magazine coming, but it goes no farther than that. I made no statements that it is a great way or the only way to run the AMA. I also stated some attitudes and approaches to the magazine were sour grapes and I still do.

I have since read comments from you guys and realized that if you presented a better approach and can back it up then it is stupid on my part to maintian those points of view. Right? Isn't the concept of a discussion forum to air views and change minds when presented with better ideas. It sounds like Horrace just might have some - I can't tell.

Jim don't forget, I am not a spokesperson for the AMA or anyone but myself (as I keep insisting and hoping someone will finally believe, I am not part of a big conspiracy to sway minds) and I am (believe it or not) a reasonable person, so don't expect me to doggedly hang on to viewpoints just because they happen to be the same as the AMA's and certainly not doggedly hang on to viewpoints that might be wrong! Good grief, just what do you think of me?

Duplicity? Jim, you pointed out areas where you feel we have our differences in opinion and you probably feel you have a more productive approach to the magazine and the AMA dues structures than is currently in use. We still have differences but what I have said is I'll back your or Horrace's approach if it is clearly a better way. Isn't that what a reasonable dialogue between people is supposed to bring about? Don't expect me to put a stake in the ground and never change my mind especially if you present a better approach. Heck it isn't brain surgery - I am sure better ideas are out there, but do expect me to want real hard data to evaluate those ideas and drive my decisions.

If I am going to admit I am wrong it will be based on more than emotion and some maybes.

Everyone can read what I have written, it's all here, what you see and read is all mine and exactly what I think. I don't have an in with Dave or the EC, I have no idea how they work, I have never been to a meeting and have no desire to do go to one, I don't know what they have in mind beyond what I read in MA and on their web site, I have spoken to Dave twice (if memory serves) in the last 5 years as we passed at contests but that wasn't a lot of time for him to regail me with his philosophy and presidential programs. Fact is, it wasn't mentioned either time, we were talking about the contest. I have never emailed him or phoned him. I am just as surprised as you are when I read the columns and believe it or not I rarely read them until after the rest of the magazine is read. Many times I disagree with him. They don't talk about brain surgery either.

I want the best for the AMA as it has been a large part of my life over the years just as it has been in yours. I have tried to promote model aviation in my own way, successful, who knows? I have no data, only suppositions.

Jim if you bring a better way to run the AMA/MA, backed up with data I am certainly bright enough to say that you have it right. Why do you expect me to do otherwise, to stand firm on approaches that are not correct?

But Jim, I am subborn enough to want some facts to guide those decisions. I have tried to clear up my exact stand on the issues we are talking about. Have I gotten anywhere close? I have read a lot of what you have written and feel that in truth we are not that far apart on a number of issues, that you hold me in such low esteem isn't a terribly great feeling.

Ben Lanterman

Must have hit a nerve!

Hossfly

Thanks JR for bringing that old post to this thread. It is what I have been saying.

I'm not certain I understand the flip-flop thing as there is no flip flop. It's still the same as I speak of now.

No, the accounting system does NOT display actual AMA/MA expenses, just the DIRECT costs. There is no staff allocations in these direct costs. I thought you had finally learned that little bit, however it really gets to you when the figures don't support all those feedings that someone in AMA slips to you to post here since they don't have the intestinal fortitude to do it themselves.

Back to the $18 thing, well it's still right there on the page 6 of each issue of "Model Aviation". >>>"When membership in the Academy of Model Aeronautics includes subscription to Model Aviation, $18 of the dues are for the subscription." <<< In the recent sub-forum, even D. Matthews was caught off on that question. He answered with the proverbial thing about "Postage Regulations". Well I am working on that one too. Perhaps the Post Master General will be happy to know that MA publishes a fraudulent statement just to obtain a better mailing rate.
Now where does the current CFO inform you that the budget doesn't actually allocate such monies. Certainly JR with your immense reach into the vast pail of AMA knowledge, you can tell me that. [>:]

Or you can continue to just display your true ig ... er, uh I mean your frustrations.

However again thanks for the help in educating the newcomers to the forum just what is actually going on at AMA/MA.

J_R

Horrace

You have, so far, refused to answer the question. Why is that? Is your post empty rhetoric?

Ben Lanterman

Horrace let me be sure I have this right.

You think that I was sent here by other folks to twist some arms. Right?
You think that being fine with the status quo is bad judgement. Right?
You think I support everything that the AMA has ever done. Right
You post here a lot to present opposing points of view. Right?
I assume you post because you think your points of view are the correct ones. Right?
Don't you want to bring other folks around to your point of view?
Isn't that what a forum like this is for? Pound out differences and change minds for a better result.
I am ripe for conversion if a person ever was, convert me and the world will beat a path to your door.

So when I give you a promise to change attitudes and biases when you share with me your plans for a better AMA and magazine which are based on real facts (appropriate solid evidence, not hearsay) that you apparently have - when you have a chance to convert the supposed mouth piece for the AMA, a person supposedly with great influence with everyone (or perhaps as I keep insisting, I'm just one modeler who is willing to see a better way) ............ your response is ........

"WELL, SIR AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE, YOU'RE HOLDING ON TO A PLAN THAT IS NOT WORKING AND THERE IS DATA TO SUPPORT THAT FACT. Please let me state one small thing: It is not worth your time to attempt to elevate yourself into a position where I would waste my time seeking your support, regardless of what ever position I may be pursuing. If conditions did ever so warrant I would solicit the support of those that are passionate about the future of the sport, not just middle-of-the- roaders as you so deem yourself. Ya'll take care now! "

J_R

Ben

Quit worrying about Horrace's claims that anyone that opposes his thoughts is a puppet for the AMA.

I was the one that did the initial calculations that showed that the advertising in MA produces about a 5% net profit on sales. He still says I am a lackey for the AMA. At the same time, he has glomed onto those numbers to try to make some case that can not be made. The numbers do lead to questions, but not to conclusions, since there are not enough facts to make a conclusion.

He has, in the past made disparaging comments about the AMA Financial Statements and those that prepare them. Now, since it suits his purpose, he is willing to use those very numbers in support of his attacks.

He has never explained that if I represent the AMA, why I would post such an item. He does that kind of thing constantly. If he does not like your view, he tries to discredit you as an AMA lover.

I will plead guilty to being in love with the AMA. One the other hand, I post what I want, and am obligated to no one.

Ignore his empty rhetoric.