AMA and Disabilities
01-29-2005, 07:00 PM
#101
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RE: AMA and Disabilities
lol..man, take a Nitro pill, youre heart aint getting Oxygen to your brain...I cant figure out what the heck this sez,lol...
ORIGINAL: Hossfly
They generally don't say without Yankee $$$ held very loosely in their face.
In addition, what the _ell if they DO say? Have you not noticed that each Court Case has one or more on EACH SIDE of the DISPUTED issue?
If you got the money, and an opinion, then find one that will agree with you. Just takes $$$$! Go GIT 'em if you got the $$$$ fer the ignition!
ORIGINAL: CDignition
We have alot of armchair lawyers here..why dont someone actually contact a real one and see what they say??
We have alot of armchair lawyers here..why dont someone actually contact a real one and see what they say??
They generally don't say without Yankee $$$ held very loosely in their face.
In addition, what the _ell if they DO say? Have you not noticed that each Court Case has one or more on EACH SIDE of the DISPUTED issue?
If you got the money, and an opinion, then find one that will agree with you. Just takes $$$$! Go GIT 'em if you got the $$$$ fer the ignition!
01-30-2005, 03:47 AM
#106
RE: AMA and Disabilities
People seem to be confusing a pacemaker with a defibrillator here.
My wife is on her second pacemaker. The pacemaker sends a very light electrical signal to her heart depending on what the internal microprocessor measures from her heart rhythm. Even she isn't normally aware of when it actually sends out a pulse. About the only restriction on her normal daily activities is reaching above her head or heavy lifting with her left hand and arm.
A neighbor had a defibrillator inserted a number of years ago. When he would have an episode, the result would vary from a sudden tensing of the body similar to somebody giving you a static shock on a carpet to a major convulsion that could knock him off his feet and leave him semi conscious for several minutes. As his condition got worse, these episodes went from less than once a month to several times a day.
His doctor "Strongly Recommended" that he not drive because of the possibility of having an episode while behind the wheel. A neighbor who had a nephew on our local PD asked about it. The law director apparently said that they couldn't take him off the street unless the doctor reported something more definite than a strong reccommendation. He continued to drive. Had a couple close calls because of episodes.
Reading this thread, all I can think is if he had been a flyer, his standing on the flight line, holding a transmitter, even with a spotter, and having a strong enough episode to knock him down. The transmitter goes flying. The plane is no longer under control. Maybe if the transmitter is recovered in time, there might be damage either from hitting the ground or from the strength of the defib charge. I know what an external defib can do to someone touching the recipient during a pulse from my first responder training, and it ain't pretty. It can also damage other electronics the person has in his pockets.
My opinion, is that while there may not be any justification in banning him from flying, the BOD of the club is perfectly reasonable in asking him to fly with a spotter, not to protect him but to protect other members from a flyaway if he does have a trigger event.
By the way, in their infinite wisdom, the local controling medical group, after 10 years of less than 16% heart function before he had the defib for 4 years, finally put him on the heart transplant list, 2 days after he went into terminal coma. One of the cardiologists in the decision process was one of 5 doctors who told my wife she was just a hysterical housewife and gave her loads of free sample Valium.
My wife is on her second pacemaker. The pacemaker sends a very light electrical signal to her heart depending on what the internal microprocessor measures from her heart rhythm. Even she isn't normally aware of when it actually sends out a pulse. About the only restriction on her normal daily activities is reaching above her head or heavy lifting with her left hand and arm.
A neighbor had a defibrillator inserted a number of years ago. When he would have an episode, the result would vary from a sudden tensing of the body similar to somebody giving you a static shock on a carpet to a major convulsion that could knock him off his feet and leave him semi conscious for several minutes. As his condition got worse, these episodes went from less than once a month to several times a day.
His doctor "Strongly Recommended" that he not drive because of the possibility of having an episode while behind the wheel. A neighbor who had a nephew on our local PD asked about it. The law director apparently said that they couldn't take him off the street unless the doctor reported something more definite than a strong reccommendation. He continued to drive. Had a couple close calls because of episodes.
Reading this thread, all I can think is if he had been a flyer, his standing on the flight line, holding a transmitter, even with a spotter, and having a strong enough episode to knock him down. The transmitter goes flying. The plane is no longer under control. Maybe if the transmitter is recovered in time, there might be damage either from hitting the ground or from the strength of the defib charge. I know what an external defib can do to someone touching the recipient during a pulse from my first responder training, and it ain't pretty. It can also damage other electronics the person has in his pockets.
My opinion, is that while there may not be any justification in banning him from flying, the BOD of the club is perfectly reasonable in asking him to fly with a spotter, not to protect him but to protect other members from a flyaway if he does have a trigger event.
By the way, in their infinite wisdom, the local controling medical group, after 10 years of less than 16% heart function before he had the defib for 4 years, finally put him on the heart transplant list, 2 days after he went into terminal coma. One of the cardiologists in the decision process was one of 5 doctors who told my wife she was just a hysterical housewife and gave her loads of free sample Valium.
01-30-2005, 08:18 PM
#107
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RE: AMA and Disabilities
Oh my God , it raelly is time this thread was shut down
Thank you to all of you who have been supportive and helpfull
F106A I'll try to pm you and leave my email address with you.
If i'm unsuccesfull please P.M me here, I'll check in every few days>
Thank you to all of you who have been supportive and helpfull
F106A I'll try to pm you and leave my email address with you.
If i'm unsuccesfull please P.M me here, I'll check in every few days>
01-30-2005, 10:09 PM
#108
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RE: AMA and Disabilities
Mike
FWIW your BOD has its collective heads up their arse. I would much rather accept the risks associated with the member in question flying than to just drive to the flying field on any regular day.
Good luck on this matter...you will need it!!!! The country is losing ground every day while traveling down the road of good intentions. Hmmm… The irony of it is, it is the same road to hell!
FWIW your BOD has its collective heads up their arse. I would much rather accept the risks associated with the member in question flying than to just drive to the flying field on any regular day.
Good luck on this matter...you will need it!!!! The country is losing ground every day while traveling down the road of good intentions. Hmmm… The irony of it is, it is the same road to hell!
01-30-2005, 10:36 PM
#109
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RE: AMA and Disabilities
Why shut it down?? there is no name calling on a personal level, a nd alot of interesting topics are coming up here...this is probably the most important problem AMA could have this year..
01-31-2005, 11:15 PM
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RE: AMA and Disabilities
There is no discrimination from what I've read.
The pilot in question had an event while flying. The BOD considered this a safety threat and required him to have a qualified pilot as a spotter.
It would have been discrimination if several pilots had those type events (keel over) and he was the only one required to have a spotter. If in the future another member of the club has a similar incident, the BOD must require a spotter for them also or there would be grounds for lawyer involvement.
It's going to be ugly at the club for a while.
Fritz
The pilot in question had an event while flying. The BOD considered this a safety threat and required him to have a qualified pilot as a spotter.
It would have been discrimination if several pilots had those type events (keel over) and he was the only one required to have a spotter. If in the future another member of the club has a similar incident, the BOD must require a spotter for them also or there would be grounds for lawyer involvement.
It's going to be ugly at the club for a while.
Fritz
02-01-2005, 09:41 AM
#111
RE: AMA and Disabilities
Since the requirement for a spotter came about after an event occurred, rather than banning the pilot from flying, doesn't that make it an accomodation? The club BOD and other officers have an obligation to to the club, the memberrs of the club, and the general community to ensure that hazardous conditions are eliminated. From what I've seen of my late neighbors events, the defibrillator could very easily cause the loss of control of an airplane in the air. The occurence of an event could be used in a law suit against the club and it's members if a future event resulted in personal injury or property damage or even death as knowing a potential safety issue was there and not taking action to relieve or eliminate it. By requiring a spotter, the club is protecting all members, and at the same time allowing the person to fully enjoy his hobby.
Always remember, that just because unsafe action in the past hasn't had any negative effects doesn't mean it isn't going to happen, it really and only means that it is getting ready to happen, and will eventually happen.
My company had the attitude that accidents happen when I first started working here, Lots of accidents from cuts requiring stitches through broken bones to at least a couple deaths. After a new president implemented the truth that most accidents are avoidable by reason and thinking, there has been only one death and only a few broken bones in a company of over 3000, in 18 years. We used to do worse than this in one year. And the one death was the result of a true accident. Very few true accidents happen. This accident was caused by a faiure of a worn component in a safety lock-out. Every other "Accident" was caused by someone's carelessness.
Always remember, that just because unsafe action in the past hasn't had any negative effects doesn't mean it isn't going to happen, it really and only means that it is getting ready to happen, and will eventually happen.
My company had the attitude that accidents happen when I first started working here, Lots of accidents from cuts requiring stitches through broken bones to at least a couple deaths. After a new president implemented the truth that most accidents are avoidable by reason and thinking, there has been only one death and only a few broken bones in a company of over 3000, in 18 years. We used to do worse than this in one year. And the one death was the result of a true accident. Very few true accidents happen. This accident was caused by a faiure of a worn component in a safety lock-out. Every other "Accident" was caused by someone's carelessness.
02-01-2005, 11:08 AM
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RE: AMA and Disabilities
ORIGINAL: 50+AirYears
This accident was caused by a faiure of a worn component in a safety lock-out. Every other "Accident" was caused by someone's carelessness.
This accident was caused by a faiure of a worn component in a safety lock-out. Every other "Accident" was caused by someone's carelessness.
Hmmm... Only to be argumentative.
It seems that that incident could be construed as a failure to maintain safety due carelessness or neglect.The point of the issue at hand: The BOD is acting subjectively and arbitrarily.
02-01-2005, 11:12 AM
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RE: AMA and Disabilities
Life is full of chances and risk...this feild is out in the middle of nowhere (county Dump) so innocent passers by or kids arent going to get hurt....we need to step back and re examine what level of risk is acceptable. Anything can happen to anyone, not just a guy with a defib unit in his chest...
02-01-2005, 11:33 AM
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RE: AMA and Disabilities
ORIGINAL: 50+AirYears
Anything can happen, but when people accept that nothing is preventable, it's going to happen very frequently.
Anything can happen, but when people accept that nothing is preventable, it's going to happen very frequently.
BUT
the issue should be put before the members and a vote taken...end of story.
Then no matter the outcome EACH member can decided whether to stay or leave. simple
02-01-2005, 02:50 PM
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RE: AMA and Disabilities
3 in 40 years is a pretty good record...I am more concerned about the 2 dead guys than crashing planes....lol
Accidents have much better chances of happening due to dumbthumbs, or other unrelated stuff happening...
I would say most old guys cant see too well, and maybe should also be subject to eye tests too??.. Lets open the worm can all the way while we are at it.
Accidents have much better chances of happening due to dumbthumbs, or other unrelated stuff happening...
I would say most old guys cant see too well, and maybe should also be subject to eye tests too??.. Lets open the worm can all the way while we are at it.
02-01-2005, 02:53 PM
#120
RE: AMA and Disabilities
In an obit published some years ago in Model Builder, one modeler, who had a number of articles published over the years, called another member over to his pilot station, handed the transmitter to the other member, and collapsed with total cardiac arrest. No warning, no history of heart problems. Just enough awareness of something wrong and enough presence of mind to make sure nobody was going to get hurt by an out-of-control plane.
02-01-2005, 10:44 PM
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RE: AMA and Disabilities
Have you ever had to P!!!! and could not land, some one on the runway! I hope no one ever has a problem and has to set in front of this form for judgement. There are more problems at the field that need to be taken care of than every one trying to be a doctor![&o]
To many people are take this posting , Well hell you take where you want to and I will take it my way.
[8D]
To many people are take this posting , Well hell you take where you want to and I will take it my way.
[8D]
02-02-2005, 10:47 PM
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RE: AMA and Disabilities
Hi everyone,
I got a response from Don Koranda tonight. I'm going to post my letter to him and his reply. I'll have more to say tomorrow. It's late and I'm tired.
BRG,
Jon
Dear Mr. Koranda,
I don’t know if you are following the thread on RCU about AMA and
disabilities, but if not I wanted you to be aware of what’s going on.
I’m the member who has gotten really involved in the issue and post
under the name of F106A.
I’d like to sum up what’s gone on so far:
A modeler in Fla has a pacemaker/defibrillizer that fired of when he
was at the field. The club BOD, fearing they would get sued if he had
an accident because of another “event”, banned him from flying solo.
They called the AMA and talked to Carl who confirmed their action was
correct. The modeler brought in documentation from his doctor that
said in so many words that this was an isolated event and shouldn’t
happen again. This information was sent to AMA and reviewed by Carl
who rejected it saying it was too ambiguous, and the restriction stood.
Well, after reading this whole thing I got a little upset and called
AMA and eventually talked to Carl. I asked him if the information on
RCU was accurate and he confirmed that it was. I then asked him what
about the statement from the doctor and he said it had to many
maybe’s, might’s, etc. and wasn’t specific enough to guarantee it
wouldn’t happen again. I then asked Carl, he couldn’t fly solo even
with a doctor’s note? He said, and this is a quote “ The only way he
can be reinstated is through the Intro pilot program”.
At this point I was starting to get hot, so I asked, this is all about
the insurance, isn’t it? His reply: “Of course it is!” I then asked
what about members with other medical conditions and he said “I’m not
getting into other issues, you asked me to reply about the RCU post,
and I did”. At that point I thanked him for his help and hung up.
The reason I got involved is this; I really feel sorry for this guy.
He had no due process, as the BOD acted on their own and AMA approved
their actions. Evidently, there are no medical exclusions in the
insurance policy or AMA’s policies to support their actions, so I
don’t understand how the BOD could take unilateral action and AMA
agree. At best, this is a local club issue that AMA should NOT want to
get involved with. I also don’t understand how Carl can reject the
information from this member’s doctor. With all due respect to the BOD
and Carl, IMHO, when unqualified people start making medical judgments
they’re just asking for trouble AMA has much deeper pockets than local
clubs, and if there were a lawsuit, AMA would bear the brunt of any
settlement, which is another reason for AMA to back away from this
issue. If local clubs and AMA want to get involved with medical
issues, then they should know they’re heading down a long, steep,
slippery path.
I would appreciate it if you would review this matter with the proper
officials before an incident like this happens again. The average age
of the membership is 58, and lots of us have various medical
conditions, including any number of members with the same condition as
this member. IMHO, unless something is done quickly, this thing will
turn into a monster.
Very truly yours,
Jon Van Skiver
AMA 79669
Dear Mr. Van Skiver:
As promised, I have discussed this matter with Mr. Maroney and reviewed
the limited information available to us.
The direct answer to your question is that AMA has no specific policy
with respect to medical incapacitation, nor does our insurance policy
contain any language that would prohibit the operation of a model
aircraft with a known medical condition. You are also correct in your
statement that this is a local club issue.
Although we were not privy to all the communications between the club
and its member, we do believe the request for some type of assurance
from a medical professional was reasonable and prudent. That said, any
interpretation of the results must be handled with great care. Both
parties clearly have a responsibility to consider the facts and base
any final decision on sound medical reasoning.
I hope this information is helpful.
Don Koranda
Executive Director
I got a response from Don Koranda tonight. I'm going to post my letter to him and his reply. I'll have more to say tomorrow. It's late and I'm tired.
BRG,
Jon
Dear Mr. Koranda,
I don’t know if you are following the thread on RCU about AMA and
disabilities, but if not I wanted you to be aware of what’s going on.
I’m the member who has gotten really involved in the issue and post
under the name of F106A.
I’d like to sum up what’s gone on so far:
A modeler in Fla has a pacemaker/defibrillizer that fired of when he
was at the field. The club BOD, fearing they would get sued if he had
an accident because of another “event”, banned him from flying solo.
They called the AMA and talked to Carl who confirmed their action was
correct. The modeler brought in documentation from his doctor that
said in so many words that this was an isolated event and shouldn’t
happen again. This information was sent to AMA and reviewed by Carl
who rejected it saying it was too ambiguous, and the restriction stood.
Well, after reading this whole thing I got a little upset and called
AMA and eventually talked to Carl. I asked him if the information on
RCU was accurate and he confirmed that it was. I then asked him what
about the statement from the doctor and he said it had to many
maybe’s, might’s, etc. and wasn’t specific enough to guarantee it
wouldn’t happen again. I then asked Carl, he couldn’t fly solo even
with a doctor’s note? He said, and this is a quote “ The only way he
can be reinstated is through the Intro pilot program”.
At this point I was starting to get hot, so I asked, this is all about
the insurance, isn’t it? His reply: “Of course it is!” I then asked
what about members with other medical conditions and he said “I’m not
getting into other issues, you asked me to reply about the RCU post,
and I did”. At that point I thanked him for his help and hung up.
The reason I got involved is this; I really feel sorry for this guy.
He had no due process, as the BOD acted on their own and AMA approved
their actions. Evidently, there are no medical exclusions in the
insurance policy or AMA’s policies to support their actions, so I
don’t understand how the BOD could take unilateral action and AMA
agree. At best, this is a local club issue that AMA should NOT want to
get involved with. I also don’t understand how Carl can reject the
information from this member’s doctor. With all due respect to the BOD
and Carl, IMHO, when unqualified people start making medical judgments
they’re just asking for trouble AMA has much deeper pockets than local
clubs, and if there were a lawsuit, AMA would bear the brunt of any
settlement, which is another reason for AMA to back away from this
issue. If local clubs and AMA want to get involved with medical
issues, then they should know they’re heading down a long, steep,
slippery path.
I would appreciate it if you would review this matter with the proper
officials before an incident like this happens again. The average age
of the membership is 58, and lots of us have various medical
conditions, including any number of members with the same condition as
this member. IMHO, unless something is done quickly, this thing will
turn into a monster.
Very truly yours,
Jon Van Skiver
AMA 79669
Dear Mr. Van Skiver:
As promised, I have discussed this matter with Mr. Maroney and reviewed
the limited information available to us.
The direct answer to your question is that AMA has no specific policy
with respect to medical incapacitation, nor does our insurance policy
contain any language that would prohibit the operation of a model
aircraft with a known medical condition. You are also correct in your
statement that this is a local club issue.
Although we were not privy to all the communications between the club
and its member, we do believe the request for some type of assurance
from a medical professional was reasonable and prudent. That said, any
interpretation of the results must be handled with great care. Both
parties clearly have a responsibility to consider the facts and base
any final decision on sound medical reasoning.
I hope this information is helpful.
Don Koranda
Executive Director
02-03-2005, 10:26 AM
#125
Senior Member
My Feedback: (11)
RE: AMA and Disabilities
Sorry if this has already been covered in this thread - I got into it late, and have not read it from beginning to end.
What I would like to now, is how the AMA considers the "Intro Pilot Program" to be a solution for this problem....
Per http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/906.pdf the Intro Pilot Program appears to be (a) specifically limited to a maximum of 30 days (b) for covering non-AMA members only.
So, unless this guy gives up his AMA membership, how does this apply ? More importantly, what does he do once his 31st day arrives ?
Gordon
What I would like to now, is how the AMA considers the "Intro Pilot Program" to be a solution for this problem....
Per http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/906.pdf the Intro Pilot Program appears to be (a) specifically limited to a maximum of 30 days (b) for covering non-AMA members only.
So, unless this guy gives up his AMA membership, how does this apply ? More importantly, what does he do once his 31st day arrives ?
Gordon