Any Alternitaves to AMA???
09-09-2002, 01:57 PM
#26
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Any Alternitaves to AMA???
I think if they are charging $58 we should see a specific breakdown of what each dollar of our premiums go to. Nothing less than full disclosure should be acceptable...the AMA is a not for profit org so what is there to hide?
With all the chicanery going on in corporate America I would think both the policyholders and the company would want full disclosure. I see nothing proprietary in the numbers that could damage the AMA by disclosing it.
On the magazine/newsletter issue...Corporate America has got on board where you can opt to get your proxy materials and annual statements online which cuts the cost of distribution down HUGE. Printing plus mailing costs are all but eliminated.
We should have the following choices:
A) No magazine and save on the premiums (annual savings of $20-$30) w/option to view online at no cost
B) Receive magazine for the extra $20-$30
Even with these options the full disclosure of where dollars are being spent should be made and fast.
At $58 annually and a member base of 178,000 that is $10,324,000 each year plus interest on the float. With that much money the AMA can self insure. What were the total claims paid out in the last 5 or 10 years? Without another increase that will be $100 million dollars over the next decade...I can't see it taking that kind of money to keep modelers insured. Even at the $40 now it's over 7 million annually. Maybe it's just me...
In NJ I have a great company for homeowners and auto insurance...they give back a dividend each year for all moneys that above and beyond expenses were not used for claims...typically we see 15%-$25 of our annual premiums returned. Then again few companies are run quite as well as this one.
With all the chicanery going on in corporate America I would think both the policyholders and the company would want full disclosure. I see nothing proprietary in the numbers that could damage the AMA by disclosing it.
On the magazine/newsletter issue...Corporate America has got on board where you can opt to get your proxy materials and annual statements online which cuts the cost of distribution down HUGE. Printing plus mailing costs are all but eliminated.
We should have the following choices:
A) No magazine and save on the premiums (annual savings of $20-$30) w/option to view online at no cost
B) Receive magazine for the extra $20-$30
Even with these options the full disclosure of where dollars are being spent should be made and fast.
At $58 annually and a member base of 178,000 that is $10,324,000 each year plus interest on the float. With that much money the AMA can self insure. What were the total claims paid out in the last 5 or 10 years? Without another increase that will be $100 million dollars over the next decade...I can't see it taking that kind of money to keep modelers insured. Even at the $40 now it's over 7 million annually. Maybe it's just me...
In NJ I have a great company for homeowners and auto insurance...they give back a dividend each year for all moneys that above and beyond expenses were not used for claims...typically we see 15%-$25 of our annual premiums returned. Then again few companies are run quite as well as this one.
09-09-2002, 02:40 PM
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After reading the replies in this post, I think most of us agree:
The insurance ain't worth much.
We could get along without the mag.
AMA as a sanctioning body, and the Representative of thousands of modelers with regard to FCC, FAA, etc. is a good thing.
So cancel my insurance and magazine and keep my dues at $45 or less.......croz
The insurance ain't worth much.
We could get along without the mag.
AMA as a sanctioning body, and the Representative of thousands of modelers with regard to FCC, FAA, etc. is a good thing.
So cancel my insurance and magazine and keep my dues at $45 or less.......croz
09-09-2002, 02:55 PM
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When the magazine comes, I look at the cover, Microhenries, and the Dist III news, which is mostly PA and OH. Then it goes on the table and I don't look at it anymore. There's nothing in it that interests me. For my money it's worthless and I'd just as soon not get it and pay less.
You're right Marc, it's not the money, it's the principle of the thing. I think the AMA should give it's clients a line by line breakdown of where the dues go and how much it actually costs to keep the organization going.
You're right Marc, it's not the money, it's the principle of the thing. I think the AMA should give it's clients a line by line breakdown of where the dues go and how much it actually costs to keep the organization going.
09-09-2002, 04:12 PM
#29
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Marc, you should really do some research and get some facts before going off and posting like that.
Don't beleive everything you read on the internet. A lot of it is downright FALSE, and most of the stats and figures and numbers you are quoting are just internet garbage that has been bandied about for years.
Don't beleive everything you read on the internet. A lot of it is downright FALSE, and most of the stats and figures and numbers you are quoting are just internet garbage that has been bandied about for years.
09-09-2002, 04:42 PM
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This is the way I see it.
The magazine has the news letter in it. Yes you can get the AMA info online but there are a whole lot of people who don't have computers yet. Go figure. You are going to get the magazine with the newsletter, like it or not.
Yes it would be nice if they would disclose ALL of their financial information, but they don't have too. You need to change the laws for that. Good luck with that one. Just because they should, or it would be nice to do for the membership; it's not going to happen.
Here's one, how many people here bothered to vote in the last AMA election? There was an opportunity for a change. So many people did nothing, but want to complain now about the state of the AMA.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah
.
Just my 2 cents. Vent here all you want. In the next few months all of you will pay your $58 and this thread will be a memory.
The magazine has the news letter in it. Yes you can get the AMA info online but there are a whole lot of people who don't have computers yet. Go figure. You are going to get the magazine with the newsletter, like it or not.
Yes it would be nice if they would disclose ALL of their financial information, but they don't have too. You need to change the laws for that. Good luck with that one. Just because they should, or it would be nice to do for the membership; it's not going to happen.
Here's one, how many people here bothered to vote in the last AMA election? There was an opportunity for a change. So many people did nothing, but want to complain now about the state of the AMA.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah
.Just my 2 cents. Vent here all you want. In the next few months all of you will pay your $58 and this thread will be a memory.
09-09-2002, 05:02 PM
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Easytiger,
Even if Marc is off on his #'s a bit, his points do have alot of merit. A non-profit company should be liable to provide budget information, especially in the modern age of electronic forms and online databases. It's not as if they would have to employ 3 people with typewriters and accounting journals writing things out by hand. We do not need a line-by-line per person accounting of salary, but even a simple total amount of salary and employees would suffice. I think something that should be line by line (at least by employee/officer) would be travel budget. How much of the annual budget do these expenses incur, and is there a drastic change of amounts per district, and why? Same thing with newsletters and mailings. Are the AMA election flyers paid for by the candidate, the AMA, or partially both? How much money is paid out to the lobbyists that "present our intrests to politicians and the government? Do we provide campaign contributions, and if so, to who and how much? These are viable questions. If we are in such an age of information being so easily accessible by online or electronic methods, why do we need newsletters? You can mail to those who specifically ask/request it. I have only gotten one piece of AMA literature other than the magazine, and that is the renewal form/membership card/sticker set. I think the magazine should be an optional item as well. I know the "captive audience" of 150-200k active "subscribers" would be cut severely, which as Marc said, would greatly impact the revenue generated from advertising rates. Those pretty color pages do cost alot of money to print.
It seems as if the AMA went from being an organization to a business, and that comes at the members' expense. The "business" needs a flashy new building and a place to showcase the "organization", so the "business decrees it necessary for the good of the "organization" to have this building, and voila, money that could have been spent elsewhere was poured into the Muncie, IN local economy. I'm sure the facility is nice, but it should be for what was spent. Will I ever go there? Probably not unless I decide to compete and end up at a Nationals.For myself, and alot of other members, Muncie, IN is not a vacation hotspot. Should we have spent the money elsewhere? I'm sure it could have done alot of clubs/fields alot of good. They must have figured that since this would be the only shot at getting a new facility, they were gonna go balls to the wall. Its easier to get it now, than ask for it later after the budget is used up. Look at the latest batch of sports teams moving, or threatening to move if they dont get that pretty new state of the art stadium, so they can cram more people into the seats at a higher ticket price. Who pays for it, the taxpayers get stuck twice, once for the building, and then again for the privelidge of sitting in a seat for a few hours. Seems like this is a somewhat similar endeavor.
That is the one downside of a "grass-roots" organization. As the grass grows, the roots sink deeper to keep the grass fed. When the grass uses up its resources, it either needs fertilizer (more $$$), or it dies back and adjusts. If it doesnt get the fertilizer, it will turn brown, dwindle back, and eventually die. Then youre left with a dead patch of grass, an unemployed landscaper, and a bunch of ticked off people complainin about the dead grass.
Two more cents worth on the table,
Steve
Even if Marc is off on his #'s a bit, his points do have alot of merit. A non-profit company should be liable to provide budget information, especially in the modern age of electronic forms and online databases. It's not as if they would have to employ 3 people with typewriters and accounting journals writing things out by hand. We do not need a line-by-line per person accounting of salary, but even a simple total amount of salary and employees would suffice. I think something that should be line by line (at least by employee/officer) would be travel budget. How much of the annual budget do these expenses incur, and is there a drastic change of amounts per district, and why? Same thing with newsletters and mailings. Are the AMA election flyers paid for by the candidate, the AMA, or partially both? How much money is paid out to the lobbyists that "present our intrests to politicians and the government? Do we provide campaign contributions, and if so, to who and how much? These are viable questions. If we are in such an age of information being so easily accessible by online or electronic methods, why do we need newsletters? You can mail to those who specifically ask/request it. I have only gotten one piece of AMA literature other than the magazine, and that is the renewal form/membership card/sticker set. I think the magazine should be an optional item as well. I know the "captive audience" of 150-200k active "subscribers" would be cut severely, which as Marc said, would greatly impact the revenue generated from advertising rates. Those pretty color pages do cost alot of money to print.
It seems as if the AMA went from being an organization to a business, and that comes at the members' expense. The "business" needs a flashy new building and a place to showcase the "organization", so the "business decrees it necessary for the good of the "organization" to have this building, and voila, money that could have been spent elsewhere was poured into the Muncie, IN local economy. I'm sure the facility is nice, but it should be for what was spent. Will I ever go there? Probably not unless I decide to compete and end up at a Nationals.For myself, and alot of other members, Muncie, IN is not a vacation hotspot. Should we have spent the money elsewhere? I'm sure it could have done alot of clubs/fields alot of good. They must have figured that since this would be the only shot at getting a new facility, they were gonna go balls to the wall. Its easier to get it now, than ask for it later after the budget is used up. Look at the latest batch of sports teams moving, or threatening to move if they dont get that pretty new state of the art stadium, so they can cram more people into the seats at a higher ticket price. Who pays for it, the taxpayers get stuck twice, once for the building, and then again for the privelidge of sitting in a seat for a few hours. Seems like this is a somewhat similar endeavor.
That is the one downside of a "grass-roots" organization. As the grass grows, the roots sink deeper to keep the grass fed. When the grass uses up its resources, it either needs fertilizer (more $$$), or it dies back and adjusts. If it doesnt get the fertilizer, it will turn brown, dwindle back, and eventually die. Then youre left with a dead patch of grass, an unemployed landscaper, and a bunch of ticked off people complainin about the dead grass.
Two more cents worth on the table,
Steve
09-09-2002, 07:15 PM
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I have no problem with the option of getting the Mag. but I believe the anual savings is a bit over estimated, probibly more on the line of about 5 bucks which is why they went to sending it to everyone . The last I read and I can't remimber where but I will try to look it up, Sence the AMA is for the most part considered a Club or organizartion and not a buisness even though it has to be ran as one, they are required to send news letters to its members , I don't know what the frequency is but will try to find out. The AMA membership is not a product as car or home insurance is, I do not join my insurance company to support car driving America , I join AMA to provide a voice for our right to happiness , in what I enjoy doing . I do not by any means think the AMA is perfect and I don't like all of what they have been doing and as long as I just set here web surfing I am sure it will not get changed soon.
09-09-2002, 07:45 PM
#33
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Dave - Magazine is not over estimated...first take printing costs & then the cost to mail them...at 5 bucks that would be 41 cents per issue! You can barely mail a regular #10 envelope with a piece of paper in it in the US for that amount!
I will get accurate numbers on this so we don't have to speculate. I don't believe they are required to send newsletters or did some law change from the time where magazine was optional and then became mandatory? Was that a US law change or just internal AMA rule to suit a certain purpose?
If a public US company can allow you to waive your right to receiving proxy via US Mail and annual statements via US mail I'm sure the AMA can provide a similar waiver if such a requirement did in fact even exist.
I'm not saying they should not be promoting RC flying or our hobby but with 10 million going into the bank I think members deserver to know where it's being spent and have certain options.
Sure nobody voted in the last one but I'll bet if somebody out there wants to contact me and point to concrete evidence of things that are wrong (not rumors or mistated facts but the real factual problems) then I'm sure more people would be motivated to vote. People don't vote when they think everything is ok but if it isn't then motivation becomes strong.
I'm not saying I know of anything materially wrong at this time but as stated I think the numbers should be disclosed and the magazine costs revealed and made optional if significant cost to send them.
I will get accurate numbers on this so we don't have to speculate. I don't believe they are required to send newsletters or did some law change from the time where magazine was optional and then became mandatory? Was that a US law change or just internal AMA rule to suit a certain purpose?
If a public US company can allow you to waive your right to receiving proxy via US Mail and annual statements via US mail I'm sure the AMA can provide a similar waiver if such a requirement did in fact even exist.
I'm not saying they should not be promoting RC flying or our hobby but with 10 million going into the bank I think members deserver to know where it's being spent and have certain options.
Sure nobody voted in the last one but I'll bet if somebody out there wants to contact me and point to concrete evidence of things that are wrong (not rumors or mistated facts but the real factual problems) then I'm sure more people would be motivated to vote. People don't vote when they think everything is ok but if it isn't then motivation becomes strong.
I'm not saying I know of anything materially wrong at this time but as stated I think the numbers should be disclosed and the magazine costs revealed and made optional if significant cost to send them.
09-09-2002, 09:12 PM
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I don't know how much of course but I am sure the advertising done in the Mag offsets the cost to members by some degree, I don't believe MA can be compared to other mags cost because they (others) are for one purpose only, to make money. MA's main purpose is to keep in touch with AMA members (at least thats what its suppose to be for) . AS I stated I don't like everything, I am not wanting to blindly follow , I believe the AMA should disclose its spending in detail , But I as most members am probably not going to lift a finger to do anything except what can be done from the Keyboard, shoot the majority of the Modelers I know don't give a rats tail about what goes on in the own club much less what happen nationally . the majority will never hold an chair in their club or be part of a committee , or even once mow the grass or empty the trash or bring in a roll of toilet paper for the crapper. But we sure can come on the net and ***** about it. 
09-10-2002, 12:04 AM
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Well I guess that I am really just a dumb country boy. Some of you folks lost me, you want an accounting of every penny of your share of the dues, what is the reason? Do you think that someone is really stealing your 45/58 dollars. I would venture a guess that some of us spend more than that a week on booze or cigarettes. At least you get something in return with the AMA, other than liver problems or lung cancer. You don't have to fight the Washington butt heads, AMA does it for you. So you don't like to read the mag you can file 13 it, most of you don,t vote. Costs increase every year, we are lucky that our dues don't increase "every year".Bad representatives are elected by good members who don,t vote!!! Some of you seem to forget about the Educational Scholarship Fund (don't tell me your kid will never get one because--insert your own reason). How about all of the school programs that are funded by AMA (I know.. you don't have any school age children!)At a nominal cost to the member or club who participates in school programs. The cost of the supplies is greater than what the club or member pays. Do you have a school program in your little world??? NO, lets just ***** about everything and perhaps it will change to our liking!!
BTW, lets start another thread so we can ***** about how much the AMA spent on the audit to account for the money someone pilfered from our 58 bucks, we don't want to get behind on the whining. GEF
The sweetest words I can hear after a beautiful approach just prior to touch down... HEY STUPID YOUR UPSIDE DOWN.. damn Dyslexia
Well I guess that I am really just a dumb country boy. Some of you folks lost me, you want an accounting of every penny of your share of the dues, what is the reason? Do you think that someone is really stealing your 45/58 dollars. I would venture a guess that some of us spend more than that a week on booze or cigarettes. At least you get something in return with the AMA, other than liver problems or lung cancer. You don't have to fight the Washington butt heads, AMA does it for you. So you don't like to read the mag you can file 13 it, most of you don,t vote. Costs increase every year, we are lucky that our dues don't increase "every year".Bad representatives are elected by good members who don,t vote!!! Some of you seem to forget about the Educational Scholarship Fund (don't tell me your kid will never get one because--insert your own reason). How about all of the school programs that are funded by AMA (I know.. you don't have any school age children!)At a nominal cost to the member or club who participates in school programs. The cost of the supplies is greater than what the club or member pays. Do you have a school program in your little world??? NO, lets just ***** about everything and perhaps it will change to our liking!!
BTW, lets start another thread so we can ***** about how much the AMA spent on the audit to account for the money someone pilfered from our 58 bucks, we don't want to get behind on the whining. GEF
The sweetest words I can hear after a beautiful approach just prior to touch down... HEY STUPID YOUR UPSIDE DOWN.. damn Dyslexia
09-10-2002, 05:02 AM
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I don't think it is wrong to want to know where your membership money is going , we are not talking about 58 bucks a year , were talking almost 10 MILLION in annual Dues . Our club accounts for every cent spent and all membership has access to the info with a phone call. AMA is suppose to be basically a big club which we are members . CEO from the big dog companies can steal millions from the company and its investors , who's to say what can happen . I don't think there is anything corrupt at AMA but I in fact have no Idea where OUR money is going.
I think it s going to be tough to make a MEMBERSHIP for insurance only, it then opens up a can of worms as to who can Vote, who can participate in the AMA sanctioned events and competition. You know its gong to be a us (those that support AMA ) and them , those who USE the AMA , and who knows what other stretch of this will be made but there will definitely be a division, and I believe the ones that do have full membership would have priority over partial members at AMA events . I am not sure it would be to our best interest to start such a division but it may work out without any problems, I am sure there may be a compromise somewhere.
I am not sure what the limits there may be as to what AMA can do to raise funds , I imagine they have the same rights as our local clubs, we sponsor Swap N Shops, We invest some of our dues and sell club merchandise.
I think it s going to be tough to make a MEMBERSHIP for insurance only, it then opens up a can of worms as to who can Vote, who can participate in the AMA sanctioned events and competition. You know its gong to be a us (those that support AMA ) and them , those who USE the AMA , and who knows what other stretch of this will be made but there will definitely be a division, and I believe the ones that do have full membership would have priority over partial members at AMA events . I am not sure it would be to our best interest to start such a division but it may work out without any problems, I am sure there may be a compromise somewhere.
I am not sure what the limits there may be as to what AMA can do to raise funds , I imagine they have the same rights as our local clubs, we sponsor Swap N Shops, We invest some of our dues and sell club merchandise.
09-10-2002, 11:55 AM
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Magazine and financial information
The magazine was optional at one time but so few opted not to get it that they dropped the program as it cost them more to send out the newsletter (as required for non-profit organization) to those few than it did to just send the magazine to all.
Admittedly the AMA of late has done a poor job of letting the membership know where the money goes. A request for the operating budget of my VP was ignored. This is a VP who has violated just about every operating rule for VPs possible, yet has managed to finagle the system to stay in office and the rest of the setting members on the EC let him get away with it and allow him on the ballot again and again. While the system is stacked heavily in favor of the incumbents (plurality vote wins and they (the EC) pick the opponents that appear on the ballot) the members are still to blame. When only 10% bother to vote at all, then the incumbents can do pretty much as the please knowing that they can get away with it.
If you don't like the way the accounting figures are disseminated you have a choice to change it in the upcoming election. Will you vote for the incumbent or his selected vote dilluter rather than a challenger that knows whats been going on and will do something about it? Remember with 3 on the ballot the one that gets the most votes wins, he only needs 34% of the votes cast if the other two split 50/50. It happened in the last election in District V. Members can make a difference, but they have to get off their butts and vote!
Red Scholefield
AMA 951 Leader Member/CD District V
Admittedly the AMA of late has done a poor job of letting the membership know where the money goes. A request for the operating budget of my VP was ignored. This is a VP who has violated just about every operating rule for VPs possible, yet has managed to finagle the system to stay in office and the rest of the setting members on the EC let him get away with it and allow him on the ballot again and again. While the system is stacked heavily in favor of the incumbents (plurality vote wins and they (the EC) pick the opponents that appear on the ballot) the members are still to blame. When only 10% bother to vote at all, then the incumbents can do pretty much as the please knowing that they can get away with it.
If you don't like the way the accounting figures are disseminated you have a choice to change it in the upcoming election. Will you vote for the incumbent or his selected vote dilluter rather than a challenger that knows whats been going on and will do something about it? Remember with 3 on the ballot the one that gets the most votes wins, he only needs 34% of the votes cast if the other two split 50/50. It happened in the last election in District V. Members can make a difference, but they have to get off their butts and vote!
Red Scholefield
AMA 951 Leader Member/CD District V
09-10-2002, 01:49 PM
#38
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I have some accurate rough figures on mailing/printing...it costs the AMA between $20-$25 (probably the higher end of that number) to print and mail annualy to each user. The mandatory newsletter or magazine I'm sure can be waived if a member chooses to do so OR receive it online to comply with any regulations. So at least for those who now may not want it since opting out could bring your annual dues down to $33 this should be something to consider for them.
I personally will still get it but am sure many will opt not to.
And Red is right...more people need to vote and make a difference...our presidential election this term is a shining example of this.
I personally will still get it but am sure many will opt not to.
And Red is right...more people need to vote and make a difference...our presidential election this term is a shining example of this.
09-10-2002, 02:59 PM
#39
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Most of you who think we are scrouges for complaining about paying $58 must also never question your phone bill either. Afterall, it's only $30-50, right? Just shut up and pay it!
Well, that's exactly what a lot of Southwestern Bell customers did - shut up and pay it. What else could we do? Live without a phone line? One time I complained to a SWB rep about an overcharge on an new phone line installation, she just calmly told me: "Sir, I could have the line discontinued for you. It'll be $39.95 plus taxes."
Well, a few years ago, SWB was ordered to refund their customers for overcharges and improper billing practices. The millions they did pay out pale in comparison to the amount they swindled from their customers.
Nowadays, the local phone servies have been deregulated and SWB is no longer a monopoly in most regions. Plus cell phones have made a land line somewhat optional. SWB's customer service is now nicer than ever.
AMA, however, is still a monopoly with absolutely no regulating agency to watch over them, and there is not a damn thing a disastified customer can do but pay the dues. Every flying field I go to requires AMA membership.
Quit complaining and do something about it? Well, if I had an alternative to AMA to send my $58, I'll switch in a heartbeat.
Well, that's exactly what a lot of Southwestern Bell customers did - shut up and pay it. What else could we do? Live without a phone line? One time I complained to a SWB rep about an overcharge on an new phone line installation, she just calmly told me: "Sir, I could have the line discontinued for you. It'll be $39.95 plus taxes."
Well, a few years ago, SWB was ordered to refund their customers for overcharges and improper billing practices. The millions they did pay out pale in comparison to the amount they swindled from their customers.
Nowadays, the local phone servies have been deregulated and SWB is no longer a monopoly in most regions. Plus cell phones have made a land line somewhat optional. SWB's customer service is now nicer than ever.
AMA, however, is still a monopoly with absolutely no regulating agency to watch over them, and there is not a damn thing a disastified customer can do but pay the dues. Every flying field I go to requires AMA membership.
Quit complaining and do something about it? Well, if I had an alternative to AMA to send my $58, I'll switch in a heartbeat.
09-10-2002, 02:59 PM
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Mr. RCU administrator may I suggest you schedule a trip to Muncie Indiana and talk with Bave Brown and others about your problem with AMA. You are the proprietor of a very powerful web site that is read by thousands of modelers world wide and as such should have accurate facts and information.
I have been following this thread and am amazed at the lack of understanding of this AMA beast. There are many of us who question some aspects of the organization and I like you would like to know the AMA salaries etc. We can pick apart why the magazine is necessary----why the scholarships are awarded to students--why we need a Muncie headquarters and on and on. The bottom line is this. The AMA is our organiization that provides us with a very basic requirement in order to enjoy our hobby---Insurance. Without this insurance none of the 700 plus model airplane flyiers in our area would have a place to fly. The amount of money I pay AMA a year to provide me with this service is a bargain.
I agree that along the way many things have happened at AMA that have a big question mark. Many calls have been made to AMA headquarters with questions of concern to myself and our club. Most were answered to our satisfaction and some were not but we got answers. AMA does respond to our opinions and suggestions. If you have a problem call and get the answer. I will admit talking with a couple of the experts at AMA was a bit of a challange, but I have many challenges a day in the business world talking to experts
Also for your information -- FYI -- An AMA sanction of an event means only one thing: A competeing event has not be sanctioned within a radius of 100 miles--300 miles--450 miles depending upon the classification of the event. Nothing more nothing less.
The reason I mention the above is the word sanction has been tossed about meaning something other than its intent. It has nothing to do with Insurance or anything else. For clarification please refer to the AMA Competition Regulations---free for the asking from AMA
This is an excellent thread. A little homework on the part of contributors might be in order
Jim Whitney
I have been following this thread and am amazed at the lack of understanding of this AMA beast. There are many of us who question some aspects of the organization and I like you would like to know the AMA salaries etc. We can pick apart why the magazine is necessary----why the scholarships are awarded to students--why we need a Muncie headquarters and on and on. The bottom line is this. The AMA is our organiization that provides us with a very basic requirement in order to enjoy our hobby---Insurance. Without this insurance none of the 700 plus model airplane flyiers in our area would have a place to fly. The amount of money I pay AMA a year to provide me with this service is a bargain.
I agree that along the way many things have happened at AMA that have a big question mark. Many calls have been made to AMA headquarters with questions of concern to myself and our club. Most were answered to our satisfaction and some were not but we got answers. AMA does respond to our opinions and suggestions. If you have a problem call and get the answer. I will admit talking with a couple of the experts at AMA was a bit of a challange, but I have many challenges a day in the business world talking to experts
Also for your information -- FYI -- An AMA sanction of an event means only one thing: A competeing event has not be sanctioned within a radius of 100 miles--300 miles--450 miles depending upon the classification of the event. Nothing more nothing less.
The reason I mention the above is the word sanction has been tossed about meaning something other than its intent. It has nothing to do with Insurance or anything else. For clarification please refer to the AMA Competition Regulations---free for the asking from AMA
This is an excellent thread. A little homework on the part of contributors might be in order
Jim Whitney
09-10-2002, 03:31 PM
#41
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Originally posted by Volfy
taxes."[/i]
Every flying field I go to requires AMA membership.
taxes."[/i]
Every flying field I go to requires AMA membership.
There is no law that prevents anyone from establishing a comptetive organization for modelers. UMA has done it. SFA did it.
Red Scholefield
AMA 951 Leader Member/CD
09-10-2002, 03:45 PM
#42
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I think the park I fly at which is a county park (owned by taxpayers) requires a field permit ($20) and proof of AMA insurance...I wonder if they would accept a copy of homeowners insurance too instead of AMA card? Not that I would do it but curious how entrenched it is.
Just to reiterate my opinion on all of this (remember this is one man's opinion) I am for the AMA but think disclosure of numbers should be in any corporation (especially not for profit ones) to keep everyone honest. Also it is my opinion that the magazine can and should be an option like it used to be. There are additional issues others have raised of which I don't have a strong opinion on which may also be valid but all in all the AMA has done more since it's inception to help modeling than to harm it as we can all could probably agree upon. I think there is room for improvement always in any company or organization and the AMA is not exception....RCU needs improving too and every day we improve it in some way.
Just to reiterate my opinion on all of this (remember this is one man's opinion) I am for the AMA but think disclosure of numbers should be in any corporation (especially not for profit ones) to keep everyone honest. Also it is my opinion that the magazine can and should be an option like it used to be. There are additional issues others have raised of which I don't have a strong opinion on which may also be valid but all in all the AMA has done more since it's inception to help modeling than to harm it as we can all could probably agree upon. I think there is room for improvement always in any company or organization and the AMA is not exception....RCU needs improving too and every day we improve it in some way.
09-10-2002, 04:05 PM
#43
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http://modelaircraft.org/templates/ama/annualreport.asp
http://modelaircraft.org/templates/ama/courtdoc2.asp
http://modelaircraft.org/templates/ama/courtdoc2.asp
Some interesting reading.
I called AMA to ask about what percentage goes to the magazine, and what to insurance, as I cannot remember off the top of my head. They will call back, I'm sure.
Red, I LOVE the way your guy loses an election, and of course, it must have been fixed!
Because there was a third candidate, he must have been "a spoiler". Look...if your guy was wanted, more people would have voted for him than the imcumbent, right? Pretty simple! It's DEMOCRACY. The candidate who gets the most votes WINS. It's not that complicated. And it's not "fixed".
And don't spout off about how the AMA rejects candidates that they do not like. Yes, they do have the power to NOT include a candidate on the ballot. Like Kermit the Frog or Madonna. But, have you ever heard of them NOT including someone nominated on the ballot? Ever? Show me a specific example of where the AMA "fixed" an election by not including a properly nominated candidate on the ballot, or quit saying it.
You are perfectly right in saying that there is no law against you going out and flying without AMA. Nothing is stopping anyone from doing that, and plenty of people are "renegades", for lack of a better word, and I have no problem with that.
Someone said that their homeowner's insurance will take care of everything. That's great. If your site owner will accept that, no problem. None of the three clubs I belong to will, because the site owners will not. One is county land, one is Federal land, one is private. None of those three entities are willing to stop and check and see that my insurance is still valid every time I show up. It's just not practical. With AMA, the clubs can verify that their members are paid up at the beginning of the year, and the card proves it to anyone who needs to know.
Vicki from AMA just got back to me, five minutes after I called:
22% of the budget goes to the magazine.
15% goes to insurance. This is for 2002. I would be reasonably sure that that percentage goes up quite a bit this year, post 9-11. I know ALL of my insurance rates did, in a major, major way. Then again, I live right near Ground Zero.
http://modelaircraft.org/templates/ama/courtdoc2.asp
http://modelaircraft.org/templates/ama/courtdoc2.asp
Some interesting reading.
I called AMA to ask about what percentage goes to the magazine, and what to insurance, as I cannot remember off the top of my head. They will call back, I'm sure.
Red, I LOVE the way your guy loses an election, and of course, it must have been fixed!
Because there was a third candidate, he must have been "a spoiler". Look...if your guy was wanted, more people would have voted for him than the imcumbent, right? Pretty simple! It's DEMOCRACY. The candidate who gets the most votes WINS. It's not that complicated. And it's not "fixed".
And don't spout off about how the AMA rejects candidates that they do not like. Yes, they do have the power to NOT include a candidate on the ballot. Like Kermit the Frog or Madonna. But, have you ever heard of them NOT including someone nominated on the ballot? Ever? Show me a specific example of where the AMA "fixed" an election by not including a properly nominated candidate on the ballot, or quit saying it.
You are perfectly right in saying that there is no law against you going out and flying without AMA. Nothing is stopping anyone from doing that, and plenty of people are "renegades", for lack of a better word, and I have no problem with that.
Someone said that their homeowner's insurance will take care of everything. That's great. If your site owner will accept that, no problem. None of the three clubs I belong to will, because the site owners will not. One is county land, one is Federal land, one is private. None of those three entities are willing to stop and check and see that my insurance is still valid every time I show up. It's just not practical. With AMA, the clubs can verify that their members are paid up at the beginning of the year, and the card proves it to anyone who needs to know.
Vicki from AMA just got back to me, five minutes after I called:
22% of the budget goes to the magazine.
15% goes to insurance. This is for 2002. I would be reasonably sure that that percentage goes up quite a bit this year, post 9-11. I know ALL of my insurance rates did, in a major, major way. Then again, I live right near Ground Zero.
09-10-2002, 04:12 PM
#44
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Marc, your figure about the magazine cost was about double what it really is. So, you might be saving about $10 to opt out of the magazine.
Another sidebar about SFA. SFA chartered a club less than a mile from a long-established AMA club. They knew it was there, but they wanted the money. Guess what? Everybody got shot down!
Now, an SFA type organization that was run by different people than the people who ran SFA, might have done things differently, maybe they would have coordinated with AMA to keep things like that from happening, but SFA was not that. It was just a money-making enterprise, run by a skeevy guy. I don't know anything about UMA at all, or even if they still exist.
Another sidebar about SFA. SFA chartered a club less than a mile from a long-established AMA club. They knew it was there, but they wanted the money. Guess what? Everybody got shot down!
Now, an SFA type organization that was run by different people than the people who ran SFA, might have done things differently, maybe they would have coordinated with AMA to keep things like that from happening, but SFA was not that. It was just a money-making enterprise, run by a skeevy guy. I don't know anything about UMA at all, or even if they still exist.
09-10-2002, 04:53 PM
#45
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Easytiger - thanks for gathering these numbers...I would however in light of recent corporate events want to see audited numbers endorsed by a reputable accounting firm rather than a phone quote. I'm not saying they are not accurate but the reason auditors exist (recent events notwithstanding) is to verify accuracy.
I don't see how one can print and mail that magazine for $10. This is 83 cents per issue. Between mailing and printing costs it is higher than this. I used to be in the printing industry and to roll off that many pages and mail them is more...if I saw audited books that showed me otherwise and proved me wrong than that would be great but I just don't see a magazine like that one coming to your mailbox for 83 cents per issue...no way. I'm pretty sure it's around $20+ as that would be in line with other magazines of that size and approximate circulation.
The other disconcerting number is that of the 100% pie of AMA dues only 15% goes to insurance premiums. Granted you say that number will be higher this year but maybe the overall dollar amount will be higher but the offset in premium increase might keep it still at 15%. I'm not in the insurance biz but maybe somebody who is can let us know what typical underwriting percentages are and if this number is within the ballpark of reasonable "efficiency".
I don't see how one can print and mail that magazine for $10. This is 83 cents per issue. Between mailing and printing costs it is higher than this. I used to be in the printing industry and to roll off that many pages and mail them is more...if I saw audited books that showed me otherwise and proved me wrong than that would be great but I just don't see a magazine like that one coming to your mailbox for 83 cents per issue...no way. I'm pretty sure it's around $20+ as that would be in line with other magazines of that size and approximate circulation.
The other disconcerting number is that of the 100% pie of AMA dues only 15% goes to insurance premiums. Granted you say that number will be higher this year but maybe the overall dollar amount will be higher but the offset in premium increase might keep it still at 15%. I'm not in the insurance biz but maybe somebody who is can let us know what typical underwriting percentages are and if this number is within the ballpark of reasonable "efficiency".
09-10-2002, 05:08 PM
#46
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For my business, I am paying less than 15% insurance. But not much.
The cost is only $10, I would suppose, because they sell advertising in the magazine!
Obviously, since the mag is still costing us a percentage of the budget, it's not a PROFITABLE magazine, but it serves the purpose of being the newsletter of the organization.
Beleive me, there was a BIG debate back in the Seventies about AMA buying the magazine. That was back in the day of a very autocratic AMA, some would call it a benevolent dictatorship under John Worth. Some are STILL fuming over buying the magazine.
As far as the figures quoted my by the AMA, I beleive them. She read the figures off the same pie chart that was published in the magazine, or that can be purchased for $5(with a more detailed breakdown, which was also in the mag) from AMA, if you tossed that issue out, like I did, when you were through.
I would be reasonably sure that the audit was done by an outside firm...they do use Brady, Warn, and Schoenfelt as auditors for the elections. Why dosen't somebody actually call AMA and ask if there is a more detailed breakdown of expenses, and who does the audit?
I just don't see some giant conspiracy. The $7 million that AMA takes in in dues every year is not a staggering sum of money. It ain't Enron.
Hey Red, you accused somebody of embezzlement above, if I am reading you correctly. Pretty serious stuff. Can you be more specific?
The cost is only $10, I would suppose, because they sell advertising in the magazine!
Obviously, since the mag is still costing us a percentage of the budget, it's not a PROFITABLE magazine, but it serves the purpose of being the newsletter of the organization.
Beleive me, there was a BIG debate back in the Seventies about AMA buying the magazine. That was back in the day of a very autocratic AMA, some would call it a benevolent dictatorship under John Worth. Some are STILL fuming over buying the magazine.
As far as the figures quoted my by the AMA, I beleive them. She read the figures off the same pie chart that was published in the magazine, or that can be purchased for $5(with a more detailed breakdown, which was also in the mag) from AMA, if you tossed that issue out, like I did, when you were through.
I would be reasonably sure that the audit was done by an outside firm...they do use Brady, Warn, and Schoenfelt as auditors for the elections. Why dosen't somebody actually call AMA and ask if there is a more detailed breakdown of expenses, and who does the audit?
I just don't see some giant conspiracy. The $7 million that AMA takes in in dues every year is not a staggering sum of money. It ain't Enron.
Hey Red, you accused somebody of embezzlement above, if I am reading you correctly. Pretty serious stuff. Can you be more specific?
09-10-2002, 05:34 PM
#47
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I'm not saying there is some giant conspiracy at the AMA just to be clear so I hope it's not being taken that way. And the 7 million isn't staggering but it's all relative...you thought Enron was big but the stock market decline in Cisco's market cap makes the entire Enron debacle look like chump change...it's all relative...the point being people should always ask to make sure things are on track and hopefully everyone strives to constantly evolve and improve.
Another point I had was where should the AMA draw the line in what it participates in? What if they wanted to sell fuel to us? Products? Run online auctions for RC to compete with Ebay or something like that? Is there something in the charter that restricts them? Is there a mission statement? I just wouldn't want things to get out of hand at any point in the near future along with the other items brought up previously.
Another point I had was where should the AMA draw the line in what it participates in? What if they wanted to sell fuel to us? Products? Run online auctions for RC to compete with Ebay or something like that? Is there something in the charter that restricts them? Is there a mission statement? I just wouldn't want things to get out of hand at any point in the near future along with the other items brought up previously.
09-10-2002, 05:42 PM
#48
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I don't know where the line was drawn. Certainly MANY people thought the line was crossed when the magazine was bought...particularly magazine editors!
And many thought that the line was crossed when they bought the Anaheim Model Show.
They do sell hats and jackets, like your local club, I bought them myself!
They also got into the credit card business.
My own personal thoughts are as long as these things make money, it's great. The magazine is an exception...I think it would cost more to mail out a newsletter...besides, I like the magazine.
Anything they do to make money to releive our dues is fine by me...I think what crosses the line, where the lines are drawn, is regulated by the Federal Government's rules on NPOs, for one thing, and can really only be taken on a case by case basis. I have not seen something that I, personally, thought crossed a line.
And many thought that the line was crossed when they bought the Anaheim Model Show.
They do sell hats and jackets, like your local club, I bought them myself!
They also got into the credit card business.
My own personal thoughts are as long as these things make money, it's great. The magazine is an exception...I think it would cost more to mail out a newsletter...besides, I like the magazine.
Anything they do to make money to releive our dues is fine by me...I think what crosses the line, where the lines are drawn, is regulated by the Federal Government's rules on NPOs, for one thing, and can really only be taken on a case by case basis. I have not seen something that I, personally, thought crossed a line.
09-10-2002, 09:06 PM
#49
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EASYTIGER states:
"But, have you ever heard of them NOT including someone nominated on
the ballot? Ever? Show me a specific example of where the AMA "fixed" an election by
not including a properly nominated candidate on the ballot, or quit saying it."
For openers ONLY 3 candidates can appear on the ballot - these are picked by the EC from all the candidates nominated. There is a difference between "fixed" elections and a heavily biased election system.
In the 1998 election for VP District V the incumbent arranged to have two people nominated, Jim Weems, and Russell Mobley when it appeared that challenger Norm Deputy might have some support. Mobley did not make the ballot simply because they did not dare to leave Norm off as he had MANY more signatures on his nomination. (As advised by an EC member). McNeill then appointed both as AVPs, yet he fires his Frequency Coordinator for running against him and his web master for supporting him. Nothing illegal here, just rotten politics. I will not even go into the 10000 ballots that were thrown out because they were sent to Muncie rather than the auditors. The elections are not fixed but the system allows for a fair amount of "manipulation". Consider the incumbent in D-V made motions to prohibit campaign adds in Model Aviation - while he has 36 issues of MA to tout his good deeds, Consider the incumbent made a motion that any political adds had to be reviewed by the EC prior to publication. Thanks to the integrity of the rest of the EC, both motions failed. Now suddenly we see talk about changing the requirements for EVP nominees - too late perhaps for this election - and its the first time we have seen a third candidate appear on the ballot for this position in a long time.
There is another instance I have heard of where an individual failed to get on the ballot but won by write in votes . . . I'm trying to get details on that one.
9/11/02 And here are those details:
Up until the early '80s, elections were each two years.
In 1978, an individual beat the incumbent and took office in '79. In 1980, He was properly nominated again, however the nominating committee -- the other Vice Presidents -- did NOT place him on the ballot nor did they place the incumbent President, Earl Witt, on the ballot for the 1980 election, 1981-82 service.
At the time, votes were counted at AMA. The Executive Director, John Worth hid all the write-in votes. Earl just happen to find them. The individual left off the ballot won by write-in, and Earl just missed by a few votes getting his seat back.
In 1981, Jim McNeil was also left off the ballot for reelection to Ex. VP (a recent change from the *Sec. Treas.* name). The same individual was on that ballot. He protested heavily to the nominating committee and excused himself from the meeting. While he wanted JM OUT more so than anyone, he could not be a part of such business.
Tommy Thompson, a headquarters supporter was also on the ballot at JW's request. Back then the 51% rule was in effect. He got 49%. There was a runoff between McNeil (write-in) and Thompson.
In last years Presidential election there were four nominees, one did not get on the ballot.
And EASYTIGER states:
" Hey Red, you accused somebody of embezzlement above, if I am reading you correctly. Pretty serious stuff. Can you be more specific?"
I will try, if you can point out where I made such an accusation. Sound like you might be reading a lot into something.
Red Scholefield
AMA 951
"But, have you ever heard of them NOT including someone nominated on
the ballot? Ever? Show me a specific example of where the AMA "fixed" an election by
not including a properly nominated candidate on the ballot, or quit saying it."
For openers ONLY 3 candidates can appear on the ballot - these are picked by the EC from all the candidates nominated. There is a difference between "fixed" elections and a heavily biased election system.
In the 1998 election for VP District V the incumbent arranged to have two people nominated, Jim Weems, and Russell Mobley when it appeared that challenger Norm Deputy might have some support. Mobley did not make the ballot simply because they did not dare to leave Norm off as he had MANY more signatures on his nomination. (As advised by an EC member). McNeill then appointed both as AVPs, yet he fires his Frequency Coordinator for running against him and his web master for supporting him. Nothing illegal here, just rotten politics. I will not even go into the 10000 ballots that were thrown out because they were sent to Muncie rather than the auditors. The elections are not fixed but the system allows for a fair amount of "manipulation". Consider the incumbent in D-V made motions to prohibit campaign adds in Model Aviation - while he has 36 issues of MA to tout his good deeds, Consider the incumbent made a motion that any political adds had to be reviewed by the EC prior to publication. Thanks to the integrity of the rest of the EC, both motions failed. Now suddenly we see talk about changing the requirements for EVP nominees - too late perhaps for this election - and its the first time we have seen a third candidate appear on the ballot for this position in a long time.
There is another instance I have heard of where an individual failed to get on the ballot but won by write in votes . . . I'm trying to get details on that one.
9/11/02 And here are those details:
Up until the early '80s, elections were each two years.
In 1978, an individual beat the incumbent and took office in '79. In 1980, He was properly nominated again, however the nominating committee -- the other Vice Presidents -- did NOT place him on the ballot nor did they place the incumbent President, Earl Witt, on the ballot for the 1980 election, 1981-82 service.
At the time, votes were counted at AMA. The Executive Director, John Worth hid all the write-in votes. Earl just happen to find them. The individual left off the ballot won by write-in, and Earl just missed by a few votes getting his seat back.
In 1981, Jim McNeil was also left off the ballot for reelection to Ex. VP (a recent change from the *Sec. Treas.* name). The same individual was on that ballot. He protested heavily to the nominating committee and excused himself from the meeting. While he wanted JM OUT more so than anyone, he could not be a part of such business.
Tommy Thompson, a headquarters supporter was also on the ballot at JW's request. Back then the 51% rule was in effect. He got 49%. There was a runoff between McNeil (write-in) and Thompson.
In last years Presidential election there were four nominees, one did not get on the ballot.
And EASYTIGER states:
" Hey Red, you accused somebody of embezzlement above, if I am reading you correctly. Pretty serious stuff. Can you be more specific?"
I will try, if you can point out where I made such an accusation. Sound like you might be reading a lot into something.
Red Scholefield
AMA 951
