IMAA Board Meeting
09-28-2005, 06:50 PM
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IMAA Board Meeting
Attention IMAA District One Members
The IMAA Board of Directors has voted to hold the Winter Board Meeting at the AMA Convention on Friday, January 13 at 8:00AM. District One voted NO on this motion because it allows three days hotel stay and four days per-diem as opposed to the traditional two days hotel stay and three days per-diem that has been paid over the years for the winter meeting.
I will be presenting motions to change the rules for participation at IMAA sanctioned events as outlined in my recent letter to you. If you have any items that you would like me to bring up at the meeting, please send them to me before November 1, 2005
Frank V. Ponteri
District One Director
NOTE: The views and opinions expressed in this message are that of the author's and do not reflect the views and opinions of any other person or group.
09-29-2005, 11:30 AM
#2
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
Frank,
Since you are using a global messaging service to make this announcement, may I suggest that you share that letter with the rest of the world. Unless you wish to treat the subject as a state secret, which is not a good thing for any modeling organization. Sharing that information might help your point of view, sell more potential folks on membership, and convince other to support your actions.
Just a suggestion,
Jim Branaum
IMAA 15990
Since you are using a global messaging service to make this announcement, may I suggest that you share that letter with the rest of the world. Unless you wish to treat the subject as a state secret, which is not a good thing for any modeling organization. Sharing that information might help your point of view, sell more potential folks on membership, and convince other to support your actions.
Just a suggestion,
Jim Branaum
IMAA 15990
09-29-2005, 11:37 AM
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
Jim,
You bring up a good point. I will post that portion of my letter that does not specifically apply to District One matters.
Frank Ponteri
You bring up a good point. I will post that portion of my letter that does not specifically apply to District One matters.
Frank Ponteri
09-29-2005, 11:51 AM
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
The following is a portion of the IMAA District One Newsletter that is not specific to District One. All comments and opinions expressed are that of the author and are not intended to express the opinion of any other person or group.
The District One Newsletter has been mailed and is in the hands of the IMAA District One members. The following is a part of that letter:
"The IMAA Rally of Giants was held August 25-28 in Danville VA. The reports that I have received indicate approximately 100 pilots attended. Over the years, the IMAA Board has held its summer meeting at the Rally. This year it became evident that a meaningful agenda for this meeting would not be proposed. The Board decided not to hold a summer meeting so as not to waste IMAA funds on a meeting that did not have a meaningful agenda. Although I voted not to have this meeting, I find it disappointing that the board could not come up with an agenda to address some of the problems facing the IMAA. It is my opinion that we could have spent the entire day discussing how to increase our membership as well as a number of other pressing issues. A number of Officers and Directors did attend the Rally at their own expense.
In the last issue of High Flight, the resumes of all of the IMAA members seeking elected office in the IMAA were published. I am sure it did not go un-noticed that with the exception of two districts, all of the elections were uncontested. This included the President and Vice President. The board decided that it would be a waste of membership dues to send out ballots in districts that had uncontested elections. Ballots were mailed in only two districts. In the last election, most of the races were uncontested as well. This lack of interest by concerned members seeking to serve as Directors and Officers does not bode well for the IMAA. One only has to look at the results of the last few board meetings to see the results of a complacent membership.
Early this year, the IMAA published the Giant Scale Handbook. This book is offered at a street price of $12.95. I am sorry to report that the sale of this publication has been disappointing. I am anticipating that we will not recover the cost of the production. To date, we have collected approximately $13,000 in advertising and sales to offset the cost of $46,000 to produce this publication.
Tom Hayden put together a program to publish the IMAA History Book. This book would have been published at minimal cost to the IMAA. A number of ads were run in High Flight seeking membership support. I am sorry to report that this publication did not receive the necessary support to create a profit for the IMAA. I have been told that the members that did purchase the book will receive it in October.
During the winter 2004 Board of Directors meeting, a committee was formed to study the problem of the declining IMAA membership and to bring forth to the board recommendations to reverse this trend. The committee was asked to have its recommendations ready for board review at the summer “04†board meeting that was held in Munci IN. The committee failed to produce a report for this meeting and no discussion was held on the membership problem. At the end of the meeting, I asked to be recognized for the purpose of offering a few items for future board consideration on the issue of declining membership. Since I made no motion, my comments were not included in the published minuets of the meeting. Since making the comments to the Board, I have not received any feedback from any of the Board Members or Officers. I would like to share my comments with you for your consideration.
Many of you have known me for many years and are well aware of my position on allowing only IMAA Members to fly at IMAA events. I wrote the motion requiring IMAA membership for participation at IMAA Sanctioned Events. I now believe the time has come to change this rule and open IMAA events to all AMA members. The IMAA size and safety requirements would remain in effect. I also propose that chapters be allowed to add certain competitive events, provided such competitions are not AMA Rule Book Events. Events such as Pilots Choice, Most realistic flight, and similar competitions would be allowed at our Sanctioned events. Only two restrictions would be placed on non-members. The first is that only IMAA member’s pictures can be shown in High Flight. The second restriction is that only IMAA Members would be allowed to enter any competition or receive any award.
It is also my opinion that the Board must take a serious look at the content of High Flight. Many of you have commented that the content is stale and needs to be changed. In order for that to happen, more of you have to become involved and submit articles.
The Board is currently planning for the Winter Board meeting. Over the years, this meeting was typically held on Saturday. The IMAA paid for two nights room rental and three days per diem. It is becoming evident that the President Elect and many members of the Board want the meeting to be held on Friday at the AMA Convention with three nights room and four days per-diem being paid for by the IMAA. The reason being given is that “it is important that Officers and Directors mingle†with members at the convention. I disagree. I believe the purpose of this meeting is to conduct IMAA business and to do so with minimal expensive to the IMAA. It was never intended to be a junket for the Officers and Directors. I would also like to point out that having the meeting on Friday places a burden on Officers and Directors who work. A Friday meeting requires taking off Thursday, Friday, and in some cases Saturday and Sunday. (I happen to work weekends) Let me again point out that only two districts had more than one person running for office. I do not feel that people who volunteer to accept these positions should have to accept unnecessary financial hardships. One director commented in a recent e-mail that if you can’t afford the position, you should not run!"
The balance of the letter is specific to District One.
Since this letter was mailed, I have sent a motion to the Board to resolve the matter of what to do with the remaining Handbooks. To date none of the Directors have responded. A vote was also taken on the time and place of the next Board Meeting. It will be held in CA at the AMA Convention. All IMAA Districts voted YES except for District V that abstained and District One that voted NO.
Frank
The District One Newsletter has been mailed and is in the hands of the IMAA District One members. The following is a part of that letter:
"The IMAA Rally of Giants was held August 25-28 in Danville VA. The reports that I have received indicate approximately 100 pilots attended. Over the years, the IMAA Board has held its summer meeting at the Rally. This year it became evident that a meaningful agenda for this meeting would not be proposed. The Board decided not to hold a summer meeting so as not to waste IMAA funds on a meeting that did not have a meaningful agenda. Although I voted not to have this meeting, I find it disappointing that the board could not come up with an agenda to address some of the problems facing the IMAA. It is my opinion that we could have spent the entire day discussing how to increase our membership as well as a number of other pressing issues. A number of Officers and Directors did attend the Rally at their own expense.
In the last issue of High Flight, the resumes of all of the IMAA members seeking elected office in the IMAA were published. I am sure it did not go un-noticed that with the exception of two districts, all of the elections were uncontested. This included the President and Vice President. The board decided that it would be a waste of membership dues to send out ballots in districts that had uncontested elections. Ballots were mailed in only two districts. In the last election, most of the races were uncontested as well. This lack of interest by concerned members seeking to serve as Directors and Officers does not bode well for the IMAA. One only has to look at the results of the last few board meetings to see the results of a complacent membership.
Early this year, the IMAA published the Giant Scale Handbook. This book is offered at a street price of $12.95. I am sorry to report that the sale of this publication has been disappointing. I am anticipating that we will not recover the cost of the production. To date, we have collected approximately $13,000 in advertising and sales to offset the cost of $46,000 to produce this publication.
Tom Hayden put together a program to publish the IMAA History Book. This book would have been published at minimal cost to the IMAA. A number of ads were run in High Flight seeking membership support. I am sorry to report that this publication did not receive the necessary support to create a profit for the IMAA. I have been told that the members that did purchase the book will receive it in October.
During the winter 2004 Board of Directors meeting, a committee was formed to study the problem of the declining IMAA membership and to bring forth to the board recommendations to reverse this trend. The committee was asked to have its recommendations ready for board review at the summer “04†board meeting that was held in Munci IN. The committee failed to produce a report for this meeting and no discussion was held on the membership problem. At the end of the meeting, I asked to be recognized for the purpose of offering a few items for future board consideration on the issue of declining membership. Since I made no motion, my comments were not included in the published minuets of the meeting. Since making the comments to the Board, I have not received any feedback from any of the Board Members or Officers. I would like to share my comments with you for your consideration.
Many of you have known me for many years and are well aware of my position on allowing only IMAA Members to fly at IMAA events. I wrote the motion requiring IMAA membership for participation at IMAA Sanctioned Events. I now believe the time has come to change this rule and open IMAA events to all AMA members. The IMAA size and safety requirements would remain in effect. I also propose that chapters be allowed to add certain competitive events, provided such competitions are not AMA Rule Book Events. Events such as Pilots Choice, Most realistic flight, and similar competitions would be allowed at our Sanctioned events. Only two restrictions would be placed on non-members. The first is that only IMAA member’s pictures can be shown in High Flight. The second restriction is that only IMAA Members would be allowed to enter any competition or receive any award.
It is also my opinion that the Board must take a serious look at the content of High Flight. Many of you have commented that the content is stale and needs to be changed. In order for that to happen, more of you have to become involved and submit articles.
The Board is currently planning for the Winter Board meeting. Over the years, this meeting was typically held on Saturday. The IMAA paid for two nights room rental and three days per diem. It is becoming evident that the President Elect and many members of the Board want the meeting to be held on Friday at the AMA Convention with three nights room and four days per-diem being paid for by the IMAA. The reason being given is that “it is important that Officers and Directors mingle†with members at the convention. I disagree. I believe the purpose of this meeting is to conduct IMAA business and to do so with minimal expensive to the IMAA. It was never intended to be a junket for the Officers and Directors. I would also like to point out that having the meeting on Friday places a burden on Officers and Directors who work. A Friday meeting requires taking off Thursday, Friday, and in some cases Saturday and Sunday. (I happen to work weekends) Let me again point out that only two districts had more than one person running for office. I do not feel that people who volunteer to accept these positions should have to accept unnecessary financial hardships. One director commented in a recent e-mail that if you can’t afford the position, you should not run!"
The balance of the letter is specific to District One.
Since this letter was mailed, I have sent a motion to the Board to resolve the matter of what to do with the remaining Handbooks. To date none of the Directors have responded. A vote was also taken on the time and place of the next Board Meeting. It will be held in CA at the AMA Convention. All IMAA Districts voted YES except for District V that abstained and District One that voted NO.
Frank
09-29-2005, 04:35 PM
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
Frank,
Your letter is the type of published information the IMAA members around the country deserve. If that information were made available to all IMAA members on a regular basis, as you have done here, it is possible the hemorrhaging of members might be stopped. Your observations about participation and contested elections are probably correct and I complement you on making them.
It has always been my opinion that the action rejecting AMA members participation and including them was unfriendly and would/has lead directly to the loss of membership the IMAA has seen. I think your motion to open up IMAA events to AMA members and allow trophies to be awarded only to IMAA members will go very far at stopping the loss of IMAA members. Maybe the first place notice of that decision should be made is at Bomber Field. In fact, it might even be a good thing to send those guys a letter.
Jim Branaum
IMAA 15990
Your letter is the type of published information the IMAA members around the country deserve. If that information were made available to all IMAA members on a regular basis, as you have done here, it is possible the hemorrhaging of members might be stopped. Your observations about participation and contested elections are probably correct and I complement you on making them.
It has always been my opinion that the action rejecting AMA members participation and including them was unfriendly and would/has lead directly to the loss of membership the IMAA has seen. I think your motion to open up IMAA events to AMA members and allow trophies to be awarded only to IMAA members will go very far at stopping the loss of IMAA members. Maybe the first place notice of that decision should be made is at Bomber Field. In fact, it might even be a good thing to send those guys a letter.
Jim Branaum
IMAA 15990
09-29-2005, 07:05 PM
#6
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
Frank,
congratulations for the way you are keeping members on your district informed.
Knowing you for many years, I'm not surprised.
I would love to have the same service in District V. Unfortunately we, the membership, are left in the dark for everything going on in the IMAA. Minutes of the meeting are great to read, but it is not enough because all the reasoning behind any proposal is lost.
I have been a member for long years, as my number can tell. I'm serious considering whether I should renew it or not.
All the best,
Wilson Roque
IMAA 5628
AMA 6808
Edited for mispelling.
congratulations for the way you are keeping members on your district informed.
Knowing you for many years, I'm not surprised.
I would love to have the same service in District V. Unfortunately we, the membership, are left in the dark for everything going on in the IMAA. Minutes of the meeting are great to read, but it is not enough because all the reasoning behind any proposal is lost.
I have been a member for long years, as my number can tell. I'm serious considering whether I should renew it or not.
All the best,
Wilson Roque
IMAA 5628
AMA 6808
Edited for mispelling.
10-01-2005, 08:43 AM
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
Frank , thank you for the informative letter. I to agree that we need to open IMAA events to ama members also. If we would have done this years ago , the Imaa might have more members now. Do you think that its right telling a Imaa member that he has to have ama membership in order to fly at a Imaa event but not alowing a ama member with a giant scale aircraft who doesn't belong to the Imaa to fly at that event. I myself went to my first Imaa meet this summer. I had a great time and the club holding didn't stop someone from flying who wasn't an Imaa member. A great time was had by all. Just my 2 cents.
10-01-2005, 09:32 AM
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
Seems to me like an organization that served a purpose, but has now run its course.
Why not drop out?
Let EVERYBODY drop out and let the thing fold already.
Want to hold a giant scale rally? Do it just like any other AMA sanctioned meet.
What is the BENEFIT of IMAA, save for you being able to fly at IMAA meets?
That's the only benefit. Which is why they don't want to allow you to fly with only AMA.
Hiflight is pretty useless.
Pretty much all safe practices and such for Giant Scale models were worked out twenty years ago. "Giant Scale Handbook?" Whose great idea was that?
Jeez. Let it drop already. Resign your membership, start your own event, and watch these guys politick until the very end.
Just my two cents. I'm not an IMAA member, and I don't claim to really know that much about it, but my perspective has been the same for quite a few years about IMAA, that it ran its course and should be folded back into AMA, so to speak. The whole thing of "you can't fly unless you are a member" speaks volumes.
Feel free to punch holes in my argument.
Why not drop out?
Let EVERYBODY drop out and let the thing fold already.
Want to hold a giant scale rally? Do it just like any other AMA sanctioned meet.
What is the BENEFIT of IMAA, save for you being able to fly at IMAA meets?
That's the only benefit. Which is why they don't want to allow you to fly with only AMA.
Hiflight is pretty useless.
Pretty much all safe practices and such for Giant Scale models were worked out twenty years ago. "Giant Scale Handbook?" Whose great idea was that?
Jeez. Let it drop already. Resign your membership, start your own event, and watch these guys politick until the very end.
Just my two cents. I'm not an IMAA member, and I don't claim to really know that much about it, but my perspective has been the same for quite a few years about IMAA, that it ran its course and should be folded back into AMA, so to speak. The whole thing of "you can't fly unless you are a member" speaks volumes.
Feel free to punch holes in my argument.
10-01-2005, 11:20 AM
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
Hard to believe that nobody wants to run for an office where there seems to be little responsibilty (no meaningful agenda) AND you get money to go to events that you may have gone to anyway.
10-01-2005, 01:28 PM
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER
Feel free to punch holes in my argument.
Feel free to punch holes in my argument.
Pretty much all safe practices and such for Giant Scale models were worked out twenty years ago. "Giant Scale Handbook?" Whose great idea was that?
Whose great idea was a new giant scale handbook ? I dunno, but the previous effort is about twenty years old, is out of publication, and there is no cogent, current, 'bible' for building giant models as such. There are to be sure many resources and many fine offerings from dozens of authors and builders, but there is no single resource document for a would-be giant model builder. The new IMAA giant scale handbook (and I've not seen one so cannot comment on the content) is a very good idea because there isn't one to be had.
Alas, the new handbook is well past overdue and I can only fault the previous IMAA leadership (and membership) for failing to act earlier.
I watched a brand new giant aerobat (forgot the model name) fold it's right wing on the maiden flight due entirely to shoddy construction. Autopsy revealed that the two spars simply were not bonded to the ribs over some half the span of the wing panel. There are any number of anecdotal examples of giant models falling apart right off the bat because they simply were not built properly, and all you have to do is a bit of research to find as many examples of this type of failure as you may need to convince yourself that far too many of today's giant models are not properly built.
What is the BENEFIT of IMAA, save for you being able to fly at IMAA meets?
That's the only benefit. Which is why they don't want to allow you to fly with only AMA.
That's the only benefit. Which is why they don't want to allow you to fly with only AMA.
What is the point of allowing everyone with an AMA membership card to participate gratis in events hosted by an AMA SIG ? The IMAA chapter does everything to put the event on, from getting the sanction to cleaning up the flying site afterwards, but some think the IMAA Chapter should go through all the hassle so non-members can play at the event in a time when IMAA membership STILL costs about as much as a couple of jugs of 5% fuel. IMAA membership dues are NOT a show-stopper, and I wonder about the cognitive abilities of those who would argue that IMAA membership costs too much while they spend _hundreds_ or even _thousands_ to get an IMAA-legal model flight ready. The Redhead Herself and I went out for dinner a couple nights ago. Dinner was something like $52, so one might say that the cost of IMAA membership is less than half the price of a decent dinner for two; hardly the kind of money that would prevent anyone joining particularly when they've got the wherewithall to own and fly a giant model aircraft !
The 'benefit' of IMAA never was limited to being able to participate in IMAA events, it's just that limiting participation in IMAA events was the only thing non-members could SEE. IMAA's web site is not restricted to IMAA members, and the High Flight archives containing (dated) technical building guidelines, how-to articles, and safety advice is and always has been available to anyone who chose to use that resource irrespective of their membership status.
In short, IMAA has >ALWAYS< been more than open in sharing it's corporate experience and knowledge about the care and feeding of giant model aircraft with the whole world, and that foundation tenet is still in efffect today.
Having said that, indeed the High Flight articles are severely dated with respect to product reviews, and addition of new materials to those archives came to a stand-still far too long ago. That sad fact has everything to do with politics, not technology or the willingness of the IMAA membership at large to share their knowledge and experiences with anyone interested in learning about giant model aircraft.
IMAA never has been 'all about' restricting participation in it's events to IMAA members only, IMAA has been 'all about' teaching the world how to build and fly giant model airplanes. The IMAA events are nothing more than the end result of >the IMAA membership having taught the world about giant models<.
Just my two cents. I'm not an IMAA member, and I don't claim to really know that much about it, but my perspective has been the same for quite a few years about IMAA, that it ran its course and should be folded back into AMA, so to speak. The whole thing of "you can't fly unless you are a member" speaks volumes.
If the only thing you're interested in is flying an offshore-built giant ARF anywhere you can without paying anything extra, then by all means keep the twenty bucks. You can get a couple of McBurgermeals for that princely sum.
Holding an IMAA membership card doesn't say to the world, "I can fly at IMAA events and you can't."
Holding an IMAA memberhsip card says to the world, "I build and fly giant model aircraft and I want to help others learn how."
Somewhere along the line you missed the main reason IMAA exists.
10-01-2005, 01:35 PM
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
ORIGINAL: euqor
I would love to have the same service in District V.
I would love to have the same service in District V.
10-01-2005, 06:26 PM
#12
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
ORIGINAL: the-plumber
Okey doke, try these notions on for size . . .
Pretty much all safe practices and such may have been worked out twenty years ago, but the newer model aviators weren't around then. Where do _they_ get information about building safe large models ? AMA ? No. AMA has the Experimental Class program but it is only applicable to airframes in excess of 55 pounds, and the specifics of that program are already dated; the program needs a serious revamp to bring it up to date technology-wise. Otherwise, AMA doesn't seem to corporately realize that a 45 pound model can do great harm if things go all wrong, and there are NO requirements with respect to hardware or construction techniques for models weighing less than 55 pounds, period. That is, for non-turbine models. Turbine models have their own stringent set of rules, but only for the propulsion system.
Whose great idea was a new giant scale handbook ? I dunno, but the previous effort is about twenty years old, is out of publication, and there is no cogent, current, 'bible' for building giant models as such. There are to be sure many resources and many fine offerings from dozens of authors and builders, but there is no single resource document for a would-be giant model builder. The new IMAA giant scale handbook (and I've not seen one so cannot comment on the content) is a very good idea because there isn't one to be had.
Alas, the new handbook is well past overdue and I can only fault the previous IMAA leadership (and membership) for failing to act earlier.
I watched a brand new giant aerobat (forgot the model name) fold it's right wing on the maiden flight due entirely to shoddy construction. Autopsy revealed that the two spars simply were not bonded to the ribs over some half the span of the wing panel. There are any number of anecdotal examples of giant models falling apart right off the bat because they simply were not built properly, and all you have to do is a bit of research to find as many examples of this type of failure as you may need to convince yourself that far too many of today's giant models are not properly built.
Ah, yes. The 'only benefit' argument.
What is the point of allowing everyone with an AMA membership card to participate gratis in events hosted by an AMA SIG ? The IMAA chapter does everything to put the event on, from getting the sanction to cleaning up the flying site afterwards, but some think the IMAA Chapter should go through all the hassle so non-members can play at the event in a time when IMAA membership STILL costs about as much as a couple of jugs of 5% fuel. IMAA membership dues are NOT a show-stopper, and I wonder about the cognitive abilities of those who would argue that IMAA membership costs too much while they spend _hundreds_ or even _thousands_ to get an IMAA-legal model flight ready. The Redhead Herself and I went out for dinner a couple nights ago. Dinner was something like $52, so one might say that the cost of IMAA membership is less than half the price of a decent dinner for two; hardly the kind of money that would prevent anyone joining particularly when they've got the wherewithall to own and fly a giant model aircraft !
The 'benefit' of IMAA never was limited to being able to participate in IMAA events, it's just that limiting participation in IMAA events was the only thing non-members could SEE. IMAA's web site is not restricted to IMAA members, and the High Flight archives containing (dated) technical building guidelines, how-to articles, and safety advice is and always has been available to anyone who chose to use that resource irrespective of their membership status.
In short, IMAA has >ALWAYS< been more than open in sharing it's corporate experience and knowledge about the care and feeding of giant model aircraft with the whole world, and that foundation tenet is still in efffect today.
Having said that, indeed the High Flight articles are severely dated with respect to product reviews, and addition of new materials to those archives came to a stand-still far too long ago. That sad fact has everything to do with politics, not technology or the willingness of the IMAA membership at large to share their knowledge and experiences with anyone interested in learning about giant model aircraft.
IMAA never has been 'all about' restricting participation in it's events to IMAA members only, IMAA has been 'all about' teaching the world how to build and fly giant model airplanes. The IMAA events are nothing more than the end result of >the IMAA membership having taught the world about giant models<.
Indeed it speaks volumes. About YOU. You don't know much about IMAA and think it should just dry up and blow away in the wind because you never bothered to find out anything about the organization except that you had to part with twenty miserable bucks to fly in an IMAA event.
If the only thing you're interested in is flying an offshore-built giant ARF anywhere you can without paying anything extra, then by all means keep the twenty bucks. You can get a couple of McBurgermeals for that princely sum.
Holding an IMAA membership card doesn't say to the world, "I can fly at IMAA events and you can't."
Holding an IMAA memberhsip card says to the world, "I build and fly giant model aircraft and I want to help others learn how."
Somewhere along the line you missed the main reason IMAA exists.
ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER
Feel free to punch holes in my argument.
Feel free to punch holes in my argument.
Pretty much all safe practices and such for Giant Scale models were worked out twenty years ago. "Giant Scale Handbook?" Whose great idea was that?
Whose great idea was a new giant scale handbook ? I dunno, but the previous effort is about twenty years old, is out of publication, and there is no cogent, current, 'bible' for building giant models as such. There are to be sure many resources and many fine offerings from dozens of authors and builders, but there is no single resource document for a would-be giant model builder. The new IMAA giant scale handbook (and I've not seen one so cannot comment on the content) is a very good idea because there isn't one to be had.
Alas, the new handbook is well past overdue and I can only fault the previous IMAA leadership (and membership) for failing to act earlier.
I watched a brand new giant aerobat (forgot the model name) fold it's right wing on the maiden flight due entirely to shoddy construction. Autopsy revealed that the two spars simply were not bonded to the ribs over some half the span of the wing panel. There are any number of anecdotal examples of giant models falling apart right off the bat because they simply were not built properly, and all you have to do is a bit of research to find as many examples of this type of failure as you may need to convince yourself that far too many of today's giant models are not properly built.
What is the BENEFIT of IMAA, save for you being able to fly at IMAA meets?
That's the only benefit. Which is why they don't want to allow you to fly with only AMA.
That's the only benefit. Which is why they don't want to allow you to fly with only AMA.
What is the point of allowing everyone with an AMA membership card to participate gratis in events hosted by an AMA SIG ? The IMAA chapter does everything to put the event on, from getting the sanction to cleaning up the flying site afterwards, but some think the IMAA Chapter should go through all the hassle so non-members can play at the event in a time when IMAA membership STILL costs about as much as a couple of jugs of 5% fuel. IMAA membership dues are NOT a show-stopper, and I wonder about the cognitive abilities of those who would argue that IMAA membership costs too much while they spend _hundreds_ or even _thousands_ to get an IMAA-legal model flight ready. The Redhead Herself and I went out for dinner a couple nights ago. Dinner was something like $52, so one might say that the cost of IMAA membership is less than half the price of a decent dinner for two; hardly the kind of money that would prevent anyone joining particularly when they've got the wherewithall to own and fly a giant model aircraft !
The 'benefit' of IMAA never was limited to being able to participate in IMAA events, it's just that limiting participation in IMAA events was the only thing non-members could SEE. IMAA's web site is not restricted to IMAA members, and the High Flight archives containing (dated) technical building guidelines, how-to articles, and safety advice is and always has been available to anyone who chose to use that resource irrespective of their membership status.
In short, IMAA has >ALWAYS< been more than open in sharing it's corporate experience and knowledge about the care and feeding of giant model aircraft with the whole world, and that foundation tenet is still in efffect today.
Having said that, indeed the High Flight articles are severely dated with respect to product reviews, and addition of new materials to those archives came to a stand-still far too long ago. That sad fact has everything to do with politics, not technology or the willingness of the IMAA membership at large to share their knowledge and experiences with anyone interested in learning about giant model aircraft.
IMAA never has been 'all about' restricting participation in it's events to IMAA members only, IMAA has been 'all about' teaching the world how to build and fly giant model airplanes. The IMAA events are nothing more than the end result of >the IMAA membership having taught the world about giant models<.
Just my two cents. I'm not an IMAA member, and I don't claim to really know that much about it, but my perspective has been the same for quite a few years about IMAA, that it ran its course and should be folded back into AMA, so to speak. The whole thing of "you can't fly unless you are a member" speaks volumes.
If the only thing you're interested in is flying an offshore-built giant ARF anywhere you can without paying anything extra, then by all means keep the twenty bucks. You can get a couple of McBurgermeals for that princely sum.
Holding an IMAA membership card doesn't say to the world, "I can fly at IMAA events and you can't."
Holding an IMAA memberhsip card says to the world, "I build and fly giant model aircraft and I want to help others learn how."
Somewhere along the line you missed the main reason IMAA exists.
Even though I don't always agree with you on some of the specific subjects you covered here, what you have said was well put and valuable.
Thank you
10-01-2005, 07:24 PM
#13
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
ORIGINAL: the-plumber
Holding an IMAA memberhsip card says to the world, "I build and fly giant model aircraft and I want to help others learn how."
Somewhere along the line you missed the main reason IMAA exists.
Holding an IMAA memberhsip card says to the world, "I build and fly giant model aircraft and I want to help others learn how."
Somewhere along the line you missed the main reason IMAA exists.
10-01-2005, 07:52 PM
#14
Banned
My Feedback: (119)
RE: IMAA Board Meeting
"Feel free to punch holes in my argument."
Like I said...feel free!
"Pretty much all safe practices and such may have been worked out twenty years ago, but the newer model aviators weren't around then. Where do _they_ get information about building safe large models ? "
Where do they get it for a 40 sized plane?
"AMA ? No. AMA has the Experimental Class program but it is only applicable to airframes in excess of 55 pounds, and the specifics of that program are already dated; the program needs a serious revamp to bring it up to date technology-wise."
How many people hold the experimental license? I beleive it's perhaps a dozen.
"Otherwise, AMA doesn't seem to corporately realize that a 45 pound model can do great harm if things go all wrong, and there are NO requirements with respect to hardware or construction techniques for models weighing less than 55 pounds, period. "
I think they realize perfectly. You WANT more regulation? What do you propose, that AMA now inspect models under 55 pounds?
"That is, for non-turbine models. Turbine models have their own stringent set of rules, but only for the propulsion system."
Not really. Mostly a weight and thrust limit. And those models fly apart all the time. Just yesterday, saw the rudders flutter off an F22, it crashed about 20 feet in front of me.
"Whose great idea was a new giant scale handbook ? I dunno, but the previous effort is about twenty years old, is out of publication, and there is no cogent, current, 'bible' for building giant models as such."
What has really changed? Still mostly guys flying big balsa models with big gasoline engines. I don't see a lot of composites, high technology, that kind of thing in Giant Scale. Giant scale racers are a different thing.
"There are to be sure many resources and many fine offerings from dozens of authors and builders, but there is no single resource document for a would-be giant model builder. The new IMAA giant scale handbook (and I've not seen one so cannot comment on the content) is a very good idea because there isn't one to be had."
Could be. $45,000 worth of good ideas? Evidently, that's what it will cost the membership. And they still have to BUY a copy. There is no definitive how to guide for most modelling, either.
"I watched a brand new giant aerobat (forgot the model name) fold it's right wing on the maiden flight due entirely to shoddy construction. Autopsy revealed that the two spars simply were not bonded to the ribs over some half the span of the wing panel. There are any number of anecdotal examples of giant models falling apart right off the bat because they simply were not built properly, and all you have to do is a bit of research to find as many examples of this type of failure as you may need to convince yourself that far too many of today's giant models are not properly built."
I've seen poorly made models of ALL types go in. That F22 turbine did not have the fins glued on properly. $14k or so down the drain.
"What is the BENEFIT of IMAA, save for you being able to fly at IMAA meets?
That's the only benefit. Which is why they don't want to allow you to fly with only AMA.
Ah, yes. The 'only benefit' argument."
That seems to be the only perceived benefit to most of the members, no?
"What is the point of allowing everyone with an AMA membership card to participate gratis in events hosted by an AMA SIG ? The IMAA chapter does everything to put the event on, from getting the sanction to cleaning up the flying site afterwards, but some think the IMAA Chapter should go through all the hassle so non-members can play at the event in a time when IMAA membership STILL costs about as much as a couple of ju"gs of 5% fuel. IMAA membership dues are NOT a show-stopper, and I wonder about the cognitive abilities of those who would argue that IMAA membership costs too much while they spend _hundreds_ or even _thousands_ to get an IMAA-legal model flight ready. The Redhead Herself and I went out for dinner a couple nights ago. Dinner was something like $52, so one might say that the cost of IMAA membership is less than half the price of a decent dinner for two; hardly the kind of money that would prevent anyone joining particularly when they've got the wherewithall to own and fly a giant model aircraft !"
Ummmm...why not just charge a landing fee for all participants, like most other events do?
Somebody is ALWAYS going to complain that dues or fees are too high, that's not me, and nothing will ever satisfy "that guy", so don't even try.
But 98% of the guys will accept an entry fee, no problem.
"The 'benefit' of IMAA never was limited to being able to participate in IMAA events, it's just that limiting participation in IMAA events was the only thing non-members could SEE. IMAA's web site is not restricted to IMAA members, and the High Flight archives containing (dated) technical building guidelines, how-to articles, and safety advice is and always has been available to anyone who chose to use that resource irrespective of their membership status."
Then why join? If it's all available for free?
"In short, IMAA has >ALWAYS< been more than open in sharing it's corporate experience and knowledge about the care and feeding of giant model aircraft with the whole world, and that foundation tenet is still in efffect today."
Most clubs have at least a few guys who fly giant scale nowadays, it's not secret voodoo knowledge anymore, and...frankly...not terribly complicated.
"Having said that, indeed the High Flight articles are severely dated with respect to product reviews, and addition of new materials to those archives came to a stand-still far too long ago."
Ask yourself why. Maybe because it's gotten repetitive?
" That sad fact has everything to do with politics,"
Could be, or it could be that Giant Scale is pretty ordinary nowadays, and the knowledge is already out there.
" not technology or the willingness of the IMAA membersh"ip at large to share their knowledge and experiences with anyone interested in learning about giant model aircraft."
If nobody is asking, what then?
"IMAA never has been 'all about' restricting participation in it's events to IMAA members only,"
But that is just what they have always done.
"IMAA has been 'all about' teaching the world how to build and fly giant model airplanes. "
Only IF you are an IMAA member. QSAA members need not apply, nor reglar ol' AMA members.
" The IMAA events are nothing more than the end result of >the IMAA membership having taught the world about giant models<."
That's a bit facetious. What percentage of guys who fly or flew giant scale were or are IMAA members? Maybe 20%? Your guess is as good as mine. Most guys down at my local who fly giant scale models are not IMAA members.
"Indeed it speaks volumes. About YOU. You don't know much about IMAA and think it should just dry up and blow away in the wind because you never bothered to find out anything about the organization except that you had to part with twenty miserable bucks to fly in an IMAA event."
Nope, never paid to fly at an IMAA event, if I wanted to, I'd have no problem ponying up $20, what's the big deal?
"If the only thing you're interested in is flying an offshore-built giant ARF anywhere you can without paying anything extra, then by all means keep the twenty bucks. You can get a couple of McBurgermeals for that princely sum."
Ummm...okay. Listen, friend...how did you get from THERE to THERE? Frankly, you have NO IDEA as to what I build or how much, or how I feel about ARFs...you sound like you are snobbing out on the "offshore built ARF" crowd...who constitute 90% of modellers nowadays...Giant Scale or otherwise. Who are YOU to judge them? Maybe ATTITUDES like YOURS have EVERYTHING to do with why your club is shrinking at such a huge rate. Certainly they don't need YOU representing them in any way, someone who would turn away members, or look down on them because they bought "offshore built ARFs".
I would hazard a guess that I have built and flown more models than YOU, but I won't bring that up. I will say this...while I myself prefer building Cleveland Models from plans, or complicated turbine jets, I don't sneer at the ARF crowd. Which would be, what, 90% of modellers? What's wrong with ARFs, anyway?
And I don't do McDonalds, sorry.
"Holding an IMAA membership card doesn't say to the world, "I can fly at IMAA events and you can't."
Holding an IMAA memberhsip card says to the world, "I build and fly giant model aircraft and I want to help others learn how.""
Did you ask the membership that? Ever wonder if a majority would feel differently? That they would say "I have it so I can go to IMAA events?"
"Somewhere along the line you missed the main reason IMAA exists."
Well...what I wonder is this...
Did the reason IMAA existed become obsolete?
10-02-2005, 12:25 AM
#15
RE: IMAA Board Meeting
//SNIP//
Tom Hayden put together a program to publish the IMAA History Book. This book would have been published at minimal cost to the IMAA. A number of ads were run in High Flight seeking membership support. I am sorry to report that this publication did not receive the necessary support to create a profit for the IMAA. I have been told that the members that did purchase the book will receive it in October.
//SNIP//
Many of you have known me for many years and are well aware of my position on allowing only IMAA Members to fly at IMAA events. I wrote the motion requiring IMAA membership for participation at IMAA Sanctioned Events. I now believe the time has come to change this rule and open IMAA events to all AMA members. The IMAA size and safety requirements would remain in effect. I also propose that chapters be allowed to add certain competitive events, provided such competitions are not AMA Rule Book Events. Events such as Pilots Choice, Most realistic flight, and similar competitions would be allowed at our Sanctioned events. Only two restrictions would be placed on non-members. The first is that only IMAA member’s pictures can be shown in High Flight. The second restriction is that only IMAA Members would be allowed to enter any competition or receive any award.
Tom Hayden put together a program to publish the IMAA History Book. This book would have been published at minimal cost to the IMAA. A number of ads were run in High Flight seeking membership support. I am sorry to report that this publication did not receive the necessary support to create a profit for the IMAA. I have been told that the members that did purchase the book will receive it in October.
//SNIP//
Many of you have known me for many years and are well aware of my position on allowing only IMAA Members to fly at IMAA events. I wrote the motion requiring IMAA membership for participation at IMAA Sanctioned Events. I now believe the time has come to change this rule and open IMAA events to all AMA members. The IMAA size and safety requirements would remain in effect. I also propose that chapters be allowed to add certain competitive events, provided such competitions are not AMA Rule Book Events. Events such as Pilots Choice, Most realistic flight, and similar competitions would be allowed at our Sanctioned events. Only two restrictions would be placed on non-members. The first is that only IMAA member’s pictures can be shown in High Flight. The second restriction is that only IMAA Members would be allowed to enter any competition or receive any award.
Thanks for the info. relative to the History Book. I had written that one off as a bad investment. Now, again looking forward to receiving it.
Your idea reference the non-IMAA member is, IMO, an excellent idea. Personally I see such a move as an excellent method to expose regular AMA members with big airplanes -- many in this day and age -- to IMAA events. Several advantages will, IMO, result from your suggested plan:
1.) Greater attendance at an IMAA event, making such more attractive for clubs to host one.
2.) Brings the IMAA events under AMA Sanction Protection -- just C vice Cr -- thus preventing the situations that have happened where one club has an IMAA Cr and X-Club 50 miles away hosts a C Big Bird. Both clubs lose. Fliers lose. (For the non-IMAA reader, IMAA sanctions receive only protection from other IMAA events, not AMA-only "Big Bird" events. Personally I don't read the rules that way, but Mr. Brown does. BTDT [:'(] )
3.) Clubs hold raffles so a raffle prize could be an IMAA membership for a non-member. Get 'em in the door!
Other SIGs do not require SIG membership in all their events. Still the SIGs survive. Your proposal has the support of this IMAA member.
10-02-2005, 02:06 AM
#16
My Feedback: (3)
RE: IMAA Board Meeting
ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER
"Feel free to punch holes in my argument."
Like I said...feel free!
"Pretty much all safe practices and such may have been worked out twenty years ago, but the newer model aviators weren't around then. Where do _they_ get information about building safe large models ? "
Where do they get it for a 40 sized plane?
I have yet to find a .010 to 1.2 sized glow plane that needed a kill switch. I have yet to see the need for stronger servos in a .40 sized ship. Speaking of servos, most .40 sized ships use 4, which will not be anywhere near enough for most giant scale aircraft nor will the standard servo do in most giant scale applications. The question stands.
"AMA ? No. AMA has the Experimental Class program but it is only applicable to airframes in excess of 55 pounds, and the specifics of that program are already dated; the program needs a serious revamp to bring it up to date technology-wise."
How many people hold the experimental license? I beleive it's perhaps a dozen.
"Otherwise, AMA doesn't seem to corporately realize that a 45 pound model can do great harm if things go all wrong, and there are NO requirements with respect to hardware or construction techniques for models weighing less than 55 pounds, period. "
I think they realize perfectly. You WANT more regulation? What do you propose, that AMA now inspect models under 55 pounds?
"That is, for non-turbine models. Turbine models have their own stringent set of rules, but only for the propulsion system."
Not really. Mostly a weight and thrust limit. And those models fly apart all the time. Just yesterday, saw the rudders flutter off an F22, it crashed about 20 feet in front of me.
"Whose great idea was a new giant scale handbook ? I dunno, but the previous effort is about twenty years old, is out of publication, and there is no cogent, current, 'bible' for building giant models as such."
What has really changed? Still mostly guys flying big balsa models with big gasoline engines. I don't see a lot of composites, high technology, that kind of thing in Giant Scale. Giant scale racers are a different thing.
Where have you been hiding that you don't have a clue as to the building techniques and material changes that have evolved? Glues have changed, materials have changed not even getting into man made fabrics, engines have changed dramatically, and radio installation requirements have changed.
"There are to be sure many resources and many fine offerings from dozens of authors and builders, but there is no single resource document for a would-be giant model builder. The new IMAA giant scale handbook (and I've not seen one so cannot comment on the content) is a very good idea because there isn't one to be had."
Could be. $45,000 worth of good ideas? Evidently, that's what it will cost the membership. And they still have to BUY a copy. There is no definitive how to guide for most modelling, either.
"I watched a brand new giant aerobat (forgot the model name) fold it's right wing on the maiden flight due entirely to shoddy construction. Autopsy revealed that the two spars simply were not bonded to the ribs over some half the span of the wing panel. There are any number of anecdotal examples of giant models falling apart right off the bat because they simply were not built properly, and all you have to do is a bit of research to find as many examples of this type of failure as you may need to convince yourself that far too many of today's giant models are not properly built."
I've seen poorly made models of ALL types go in. That F22 turbine did not have the fins glued on properly. $14k or so down the drain.
"What is the BENEFIT of IMAA, save for you being able to fly at IMAA meets?
That's the only benefit. Which is why they don't want to allow you to fly with only AMA.
Ah, yes. The 'only benefit' argument."
That seems to be the only perceived benefit to most of the members, no?
"What is the point of allowing everyone with an AMA membership card to participate gratis in events hosted by an AMA SIG ? The IMAA chapter does everything to put the event on, from getting the sanction to cleaning up the flying site afterwards, but some think the IMAA Chapter should go through all the hassle so non-members can play at the event in a time when IMAA membership STILL costs about as much as a couple of ju"gs of 5% fuel. IMAA membership dues are NOT a show-stopper, and I wonder about the cognitive abilities of those who would argue that IMAA membership costs too much while they spend _hundreds_ or even _thousands_ to get an IMAA-legal model flight ready. The Redhead Herself and I went out for dinner a couple nights ago. Dinner was something like $52, so one might say that the cost of IMAA membership is less than half the price of a decent dinner for two; hardly the kind of money that would prevent anyone joining particularly when they've got the wherewithall to own and fly a giant model aircraft !"
Ummmm...why not just charge a landing fee for all participants, like most other events do?
Somebody is ALWAYS going to complain that dues or fees are too high, that's not me, and nothing will ever satisfy "that guy", so don't even try.
But 98% of the guys will accept an entry fee, no problem.
Recent experiences with folks quoting the 90% solution tends to indicate that they typically sign up for what looks to be the easy way out even when they understand the probablility that it won't work.
"The 'benefit' of IMAA never was limited to being able to participate in IMAA events, it's just that limiting participation in IMAA events was the only thing non-members could SEE. IMAA's web site is not restricted to IMAA members, and the High Flight archives containing (dated) technical building guidelines, how-to articles, and safety advice is and always has been available to anyone who chose to use that resource irrespective of their membership status."
Then why join? If it's all available for free?
"In short, IMAA has >ALWAYS< been more than open in sharing it's corporate experience and knowledge about the care and feeding of giant model aircraft with the whole world, and that foundation tenet is still in efffect today."
Most clubs have at least a few guys who fly giant scale nowadays, it's not secret voodoo knowledge anymore, and...frankly...not terribly complicated.
I bet you even have one, right? Lemme see, doesn't know about new techniques, doesn't know about differences between giant scale and .40 sized safety issues...
"Having said that, indeed the High Flight articles are severely dated with respect to product reviews, and addition of new materials to those archives came to a stand-still far too long ago."
Ask yourself why. Maybe because it's gotten repetitive?
" That sad fact has everything to do with politics,"
Could be, or it could be that Giant Scale is pretty ordinary nowadays, and the knowledge is already out there.
No, Fred said it right and since you have not been paying attention you clearly have no dog in the hunt and no real interest in the subject. Fred and I spent years on the opposite side of several of these issues, and we now agree on more things than not. You might consider moving on to another subject where you may have more applicable knowledge. Or not...
" not technology or the willingness of the IMAA membersh"ip at large to share their knowledge and experiences with anyone interested in learning about giant model aircraft."
If nobody is asking, what then?
"IMAA never has been 'all about' restricting participation in it's events to IMAA members only,"
But that is just what they have always done.
Sorry, but you are flatly WRONG here. That may be what you have seen in your area, but it was not always true nation wide. Why do you think some of us were making trouble? Of course, since you weren't paying attention you don't have a clue.
"IMAA has been 'all about' teaching the world how to build and fly giant model airplanes. "
Only IF you are an IMAA member. QSAA members need not apply, nor reglar ol' AMA members.
" The IMAA events are nothing more than the end result of >the IMAA membership having taught the world about giant models<."
That's a bit facetious. What percentage of guys who fly or flew giant scale were or are IMAA members? Maybe 20%? Your guess is as good as mine. Most guys down at my local who fly giant scale models are not IMAA members.
Once again you are all wet. The IMAA folks taught the world how to convert industrial engines to model avaition, how to build giant scale birds, and how to maintain and fly them safely. Where do you think the current batch of birds came from, some tree?
"Indeed it speaks volumes. About YOU. You don't know much about IMAA and think it should just dry up and blow away in the wind because you never bothered to find out anything about the organization except that you had to part with twenty miserable bucks to fly in an IMAA event."
Nope, never paid to fly at an IMAA event, if I wanted to, I'd have no problem ponying up $20, what's the big deal?
"If the only thing you're interested in is flying an offshore-built giant ARF anywhere you can without paying anything extra, then by all means keep the twenty bucks. You can get a couple of McBurgermeals for that princely sum."
Ummm...okay. Listen, friend...how did you get from THERE to THERE? Frankly, you have NO IDEA as to what I build or how much, or how I feel about ARFs...you sound like you are snobbing out on the "offshore built ARF" crowd...who constitute 90% of modellers nowadays...Giant Scale or otherwise. Who are YOU to judge them? Maybe ATTITUDES like YOURS have EVERYTHING to do with why your club is shrinking at such a huge rate. Certainly they don't need YOU representing them in any way, someone who would turn away members, or look down on them because they bought "offshore built ARFs".
I would hazard a guess that I have built and flown more models than YOU, but I won't bring that up. I will say this...while I myself prefer building Cleveland Models from plans, or complicated turbine jets, I don't sneer at the ARF crowd. Which would be, what, 90% of modellers? What's wrong with ARFs, anyway?
And I don't do McDonalds, sorry.
"Holding an IMAA membership card doesn't say to the world, "I can fly at IMAA events and you can't."
Holding an IMAA memberhsip card says to the world, "I build and fly giant model aircraft and I want to help others learn how.""
Did you ask the membership that? Ever wonder if a majority would feel differently? That they would say "I have it so I can go to IMAA events?"
"Somewhere along the line you missed the main reason IMAA exists."
Well...what I wonder is this...
Did the reason IMAA existed become obsolete?
FINALLY! Finally you have said something that might even have some active intelligence behind it! The answer is yes and no. The original reason began to cease to exist about the time the IMAA events became closed to non-IMAA members and the giant scale ARF hit the market. That does not mean the organizaiton should not grow as the world changes, and THAT sir is what several of us on the forum have fought bitterly about for about 10 years. Where were you hiding when the fur was flying?
"Feel free to punch holes in my argument."
Like I said...feel free!
"Pretty much all safe practices and such may have been worked out twenty years ago, but the newer model aviators weren't around then. Where do _they_ get information about building safe large models ? "
Where do they get it for a 40 sized plane?
I have yet to find a .010 to 1.2 sized glow plane that needed a kill switch. I have yet to see the need for stronger servos in a .40 sized ship. Speaking of servos, most .40 sized ships use 4, which will not be anywhere near enough for most giant scale aircraft nor will the standard servo do in most giant scale applications. The question stands.
"AMA ? No. AMA has the Experimental Class program but it is only applicable to airframes in excess of 55 pounds, and the specifics of that program are already dated; the program needs a serious revamp to bring it up to date technology-wise."
How many people hold the experimental license? I beleive it's perhaps a dozen.
"Otherwise, AMA doesn't seem to corporately realize that a 45 pound model can do great harm if things go all wrong, and there are NO requirements with respect to hardware or construction techniques for models weighing less than 55 pounds, period. "
I think they realize perfectly. You WANT more regulation? What do you propose, that AMA now inspect models under 55 pounds?
"That is, for non-turbine models. Turbine models have their own stringent set of rules, but only for the propulsion system."
Not really. Mostly a weight and thrust limit. And those models fly apart all the time. Just yesterday, saw the rudders flutter off an F22, it crashed about 20 feet in front of me.
"Whose great idea was a new giant scale handbook ? I dunno, but the previous effort is about twenty years old, is out of publication, and there is no cogent, current, 'bible' for building giant models as such."
What has really changed? Still mostly guys flying big balsa models with big gasoline engines. I don't see a lot of composites, high technology, that kind of thing in Giant Scale. Giant scale racers are a different thing.
Where have you been hiding that you don't have a clue as to the building techniques and material changes that have evolved? Glues have changed, materials have changed not even getting into man made fabrics, engines have changed dramatically, and radio installation requirements have changed.
"There are to be sure many resources and many fine offerings from dozens of authors and builders, but there is no single resource document for a would-be giant model builder. The new IMAA giant scale handbook (and I've not seen one so cannot comment on the content) is a very good idea because there isn't one to be had."
Could be. $45,000 worth of good ideas? Evidently, that's what it will cost the membership. And they still have to BUY a copy. There is no definitive how to guide for most modelling, either.
"I watched a brand new giant aerobat (forgot the model name) fold it's right wing on the maiden flight due entirely to shoddy construction. Autopsy revealed that the two spars simply were not bonded to the ribs over some half the span of the wing panel. There are any number of anecdotal examples of giant models falling apart right off the bat because they simply were not built properly, and all you have to do is a bit of research to find as many examples of this type of failure as you may need to convince yourself that far too many of today's giant models are not properly built."
I've seen poorly made models of ALL types go in. That F22 turbine did not have the fins glued on properly. $14k or so down the drain.
"What is the BENEFIT of IMAA, save for you being able to fly at IMAA meets?
That's the only benefit. Which is why they don't want to allow you to fly with only AMA.
Ah, yes. The 'only benefit' argument."
That seems to be the only perceived benefit to most of the members, no?
"What is the point of allowing everyone with an AMA membership card to participate gratis in events hosted by an AMA SIG ? The IMAA chapter does everything to put the event on, from getting the sanction to cleaning up the flying site afterwards, but some think the IMAA Chapter should go through all the hassle so non-members can play at the event in a time when IMAA membership STILL costs about as much as a couple of ju"gs of 5% fuel. IMAA membership dues are NOT a show-stopper, and I wonder about the cognitive abilities of those who would argue that IMAA membership costs too much while they spend _hundreds_ or even _thousands_ to get an IMAA-legal model flight ready. The Redhead Herself and I went out for dinner a couple nights ago. Dinner was something like $52, so one might say that the cost of IMAA membership is less than half the price of a decent dinner for two; hardly the kind of money that would prevent anyone joining particularly when they've got the wherewithall to own and fly a giant model aircraft !"
Ummmm...why not just charge a landing fee for all participants, like most other events do?
Somebody is ALWAYS going to complain that dues or fees are too high, that's not me, and nothing will ever satisfy "that guy", so don't even try.
But 98% of the guys will accept an entry fee, no problem.
Recent experiences with folks quoting the 90% solution tends to indicate that they typically sign up for what looks to be the easy way out even when they understand the probablility that it won't work.
"The 'benefit' of IMAA never was limited to being able to participate in IMAA events, it's just that limiting participation in IMAA events was the only thing non-members could SEE. IMAA's web site is not restricted to IMAA members, and the High Flight archives containing (dated) technical building guidelines, how-to articles, and safety advice is and always has been available to anyone who chose to use that resource irrespective of their membership status."
Then why join? If it's all available for free?
"In short, IMAA has >ALWAYS< been more than open in sharing it's corporate experience and knowledge about the care and feeding of giant model aircraft with the whole world, and that foundation tenet is still in efffect today."
Most clubs have at least a few guys who fly giant scale nowadays, it's not secret voodoo knowledge anymore, and...frankly...not terribly complicated.
I bet you even have one, right? Lemme see, doesn't know about new techniques, doesn't know about differences between giant scale and .40 sized safety issues...
"Having said that, indeed the High Flight articles are severely dated with respect to product reviews, and addition of new materials to those archives came to a stand-still far too long ago."
Ask yourself why. Maybe because it's gotten repetitive?
" That sad fact has everything to do with politics,"
Could be, or it could be that Giant Scale is pretty ordinary nowadays, and the knowledge is already out there.
No, Fred said it right and since you have not been paying attention you clearly have no dog in the hunt and no real interest in the subject. Fred and I spent years on the opposite side of several of these issues, and we now agree on more things than not. You might consider moving on to another subject where you may have more applicable knowledge. Or not...
" not technology or the willingness of the IMAA membersh"ip at large to share their knowledge and experiences with anyone interested in learning about giant model aircraft."
If nobody is asking, what then?
"IMAA never has been 'all about' restricting participation in it's events to IMAA members only,"
But that is just what they have always done.
Sorry, but you are flatly WRONG here. That may be what you have seen in your area, but it was not always true nation wide. Why do you think some of us were making trouble? Of course, since you weren't paying attention you don't have a clue.
"IMAA has been 'all about' teaching the world how to build and fly giant model airplanes. "
Only IF you are an IMAA member. QSAA members need not apply, nor reglar ol' AMA members.
" The IMAA events are nothing more than the end result of >the IMAA membership having taught the world about giant models<."
That's a bit facetious. What percentage of guys who fly or flew giant scale were or are IMAA members? Maybe 20%? Your guess is as good as mine. Most guys down at my local who fly giant scale models are not IMAA members.
Once again you are all wet. The IMAA folks taught the world how to convert industrial engines to model avaition, how to build giant scale birds, and how to maintain and fly them safely. Where do you think the current batch of birds came from, some tree?
"Indeed it speaks volumes. About YOU. You don't know much about IMAA and think it should just dry up and blow away in the wind because you never bothered to find out anything about the organization except that you had to part with twenty miserable bucks to fly in an IMAA event."
Nope, never paid to fly at an IMAA event, if I wanted to, I'd have no problem ponying up $20, what's the big deal?
"If the only thing you're interested in is flying an offshore-built giant ARF anywhere you can without paying anything extra, then by all means keep the twenty bucks. You can get a couple of McBurgermeals for that princely sum."
Ummm...okay. Listen, friend...how did you get from THERE to THERE? Frankly, you have NO IDEA as to what I build or how much, or how I feel about ARFs...you sound like you are snobbing out on the "offshore built ARF" crowd...who constitute 90% of modellers nowadays...Giant Scale or otherwise. Who are YOU to judge them? Maybe ATTITUDES like YOURS have EVERYTHING to do with why your club is shrinking at such a huge rate. Certainly they don't need YOU representing them in any way, someone who would turn away members, or look down on them because they bought "offshore built ARFs".
I would hazard a guess that I have built and flown more models than YOU, but I won't bring that up. I will say this...while I myself prefer building Cleveland Models from plans, or complicated turbine jets, I don't sneer at the ARF crowd. Which would be, what, 90% of modellers? What's wrong with ARFs, anyway?
And I don't do McDonalds, sorry.
"Holding an IMAA membership card doesn't say to the world, "I can fly at IMAA events and you can't."
Holding an IMAA memberhsip card says to the world, "I build and fly giant model aircraft and I want to help others learn how.""
Did you ask the membership that? Ever wonder if a majority would feel differently? That they would say "I have it so I can go to IMAA events?"
"Somewhere along the line you missed the main reason IMAA exists."
Well...what I wonder is this...
Did the reason IMAA existed become obsolete?
FINALLY! Finally you have said something that might even have some active intelligence behind it! The answer is yes and no. The original reason began to cease to exist about the time the IMAA events became closed to non-IMAA members and the giant scale ARF hit the market. That does not mean the organizaiton should not grow as the world changes, and THAT sir is what several of us on the forum have fought bitterly about for about 10 years. Where were you hiding when the fur was flying?
10-02-2005, 05:43 AM
#17
Banned
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
"Once again you are all wet. The IMAA folks taught the world how to convert industrial engines to model avaition, how to build giant scale birds, and how to maintain and fly them safely. Where do you think the current batch of birds came from, some tree?"
I don't mind your personal attacks. They make you sound quite shrill and petty. You are not very good at that!
But who taught the world how to convert industrial engines? NOT IMAA. Dario Brisghella, Al Alman, and many others. And you could read all about it in the magazines. I don't know where all this "IMAA taught the world" stuff comes from...most people coming joining IMAA already have BUILT a giant scale airplane. Sorry, but this stuff is not some sort of secret knowledge passed along like freemasonry. Kill switch? Not exactly complicated.
"Where have you been hiding that you don't have a clue as to the building techniques and material changes that have evolved? Glues have changed, materials have changed not even getting into man made fabrics, engines have changed dramatically, and radio installation requirements have changed."
CA, artificial fabrics, four stroke and industrial gasoline engines...all that stuff dates to the seventies, before IMAA. So, no, the state of the art has not really changed that much.
Look...keep up the high and mighty attitude, keep pretending it's some sort of great educational institution, reject ARFs, keep non-members out, and you will watch the decline continue. Oh, well! Does not bother me much. I see a bunch of guys who are getting all powertrippy and loopy over a club that may not really be needed. If it folds, we will probably be better off.
I don't mind your personal attacks. They make you sound quite shrill and petty. You are not very good at that!
But who taught the world how to convert industrial engines? NOT IMAA. Dario Brisghella, Al Alman, and many others. And you could read all about it in the magazines. I don't know where all this "IMAA taught the world" stuff comes from...most people coming joining IMAA already have BUILT a giant scale airplane. Sorry, but this stuff is not some sort of secret knowledge passed along like freemasonry. Kill switch? Not exactly complicated.
"Where have you been hiding that you don't have a clue as to the building techniques and material changes that have evolved? Glues have changed, materials have changed not even getting into man made fabrics, engines have changed dramatically, and radio installation requirements have changed."
CA, artificial fabrics, four stroke and industrial gasoline engines...all that stuff dates to the seventies, before IMAA. So, no, the state of the art has not really changed that much.
Look...keep up the high and mighty attitude, keep pretending it's some sort of great educational institution, reject ARFs, keep non-members out, and you will watch the decline continue. Oh, well! Does not bother me much. I see a bunch of guys who are getting all powertrippy and loopy over a club that may not really be needed. If it folds, we will probably be better off.
10-02-2005, 07:22 AM
#18
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
ET,
Please don't cloud the issue with things like "facts" and "actual proof" to make your point when vauge sweeping statements and ad hominem will do.
Please don't cloud the issue with things like "facts" and "actual proof" to make your point when vauge sweeping statements and ad hominem will do.
10-02-2005, 11:36 AM
#19
Senior Member
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
O.K. So where did the big birds really come from? Good question, so I will answer it. Gaint Scale for all practical purposes started back in 1975 when Bob Dunn and I designed a 1/4 scale Bristol Scout, and six members of The Southern Tier Aero Radio Society built a squadron of six of them. At the time there no engines, no props, no wheels, no cowls, no big hardware, no nothing for this size airplane. That meant that every part had to be designed and hand made for these aircraft. We made wooden wheels on a wood lathe, cowls from blocks of pine boards glued together, also tunred on a wood lathe. We hand carved our props from blocks of maple wood. We played around with a lot of different engines, Webra .61's geared together, the O&R industrial, and finally got the squadron flying with 1.4 cu. in. Roper industrial engines converted to glo for additional power. This squadron flew "en Masse" with these engines at Rhinebeck in 1977.
Then we heard about Ron Schettler in Edmunton, Canada, using a Quadra 35 engine on an airplane. Phone calls were made, and two engines were purchased. It was the answer to our prayers, and in 1978 the squadron flew at Rhinebeck, all powered by Quadra 35's.
I became the very first Quadra dealer in the US, and put it on the market here. I sold over 400 Quadra's the first year alone. Still, at the time, there were no props, no kits, no wheels, but due to the highly publicized Scouts, manufacturers quickly began to take notice.
Grish started to make propeller blanks that needed to be hand finished. That was a start. Then Zinger started making big props, and I was their biggest distributor. Then Bob Seigeloff (CB Associates) started making things like engine mounts, spinners, wheels, and big control horns. I distributed them all. It didn't take long before Du-Bro started with big plane merchandise, and by 1980 everyone got in on the act. I was at the organizational meeting of IMAA at Toledo in 1980, and was a member for 24 years (PS69). I finally dropped out in Jan. 2005, as for me, IMAA no longer served a purpose.
Giant Scale was getting popular at a rapid pace. Wendell Hostettler started with plans. Dario Brisighella came up with his "unbalance flywheel" to smooth vibrations from the Quadra 35 engines. I used to ship Dario a dozen wheels at a time, and would install them as an option on new engines. We sold a lot of Dario wheels. Dario also came out with plans to the Starduster Too. The "Concept Fleet" was I think the first giant scale kit to hit the market. Don Godfrey designed the 1/4 scale Stearman, and installed a Kioritz engine. I became a Kioritz dealer and kitted Don's beautiful airplane.
In 1978 I began kitting my 1/4 scale Ercoupe and Piper Tomahawk, for the Q35 engine. In the early 80's, Zenoah engines became popular, and I designed a 1/3 scale Ercoupe for the G-62, some 20 years before Balsa USA. By now, there were lots of dealers doing giant scale. Dick Bennett was a leader in giant scale accessories of all types and descriptions. If there was a need, Dick designed and got the item on the market.
No - giant scale didn't come from the trees! It started with the STARS in Olean, NY, and if you read the latest issue of Model Aviation, page 9, you will note that the AMA recognized that fact, and on August 28, 2005, the AMA gave out only its 2nd. Heritage Landmark Award, "the highest award that they give", to the STARS for their pioneering efforts in the development of Giant Scale Aircraft.
At that award presentation, we were able to have five of the original Bristol Scouts on hand for photos, and we flew three of them. Keep in mind that these airplanes are now 30 years old. That in itself, is a feat worth bragging about. See attached photos.
Sadly, you won't find any of this information in the IMAA history book, because the STARS club (chapter 003) was kicked out of the IMAA in about 1986 for refusing to not let smaller scale models fly with the big ones at their annual Scale Rally, so no mention of the STARS or their accomplishments, in the history book. However, that's not a problem, as we just completed our 28th. Scale Rally where all scales are welcome, and nobody is turned away if they have a scale model to fly, regardless of the size. Those that say big and small models don't mix, really don't know what they are talking about. This year, we even saw many electrics fly for the first time. And it's a fact, you really don't need IMAA to put on a good Scale Rally, where a lot of big airplanes are present.
There were a total of nine guys in on the Bristol Scout Squadron in 1975. Three have passed away, and there are six left. Five of them were present at the Awards presentation, made by Don Koranda, (Executive Director of AMA at Muncie), and Dave Mathewson (VP of District II).
The STARS club, organized in 1935 is probably the oldest club in the US today, but I have no way to prove that. I have been a member of both STARS and AMA for 64 consecutive years.
As a result of the Bristol Squadron, and the effect it had on attendance at out Scale Rallys, we made enough money to purchase our own flying field. Don Koranda said that to own your own field, and to keep a club going for 70 years is an achievement that few clubs ever realize, and so the Heritage Landmark Award is highly deserved. He went on to say that there are times when someone, or some group, does something that drasticallychanges the direction of the hobby, and the advent of giant scale was one of them.
A note to Frank Ponteri: I congratulate you on your meningful letter. One thing that always bothered me as a member of IMAA, was that once the organization got going, there was absolutely NO input from the membership. I always thought that I had a lot to offer, but had no way to communicate my thoughts to the heirarchy. It was like talking to a brick wall.
Photo one and two shows the five Bristols and a Phalz by Charlie Nellis, featuring wing warping as per the real one.
Photo three shows the five remaining pioneers, with the AMA bronze heritage award. From left to right they are, Charlie Nellis, Bill Messer, Jim Messer, Bob Dunn, and Lou Eltscher. My Bristol Scout is in photo also.
Photo three shows the three of the 30 year old Bristol Scouts getting ready to fly.
So there you have my story. It's all true, but as the others say - "fire away".
Then we heard about Ron Schettler in Edmunton, Canada, using a Quadra 35 engine on an airplane. Phone calls were made, and two engines were purchased. It was the answer to our prayers, and in 1978 the squadron flew at Rhinebeck, all powered by Quadra 35's.
I became the very first Quadra dealer in the US, and put it on the market here. I sold over 400 Quadra's the first year alone. Still, at the time, there were no props, no kits, no wheels, but due to the highly publicized Scouts, manufacturers quickly began to take notice.
Grish started to make propeller blanks that needed to be hand finished. That was a start. Then Zinger started making big props, and I was their biggest distributor. Then Bob Seigeloff (CB Associates) started making things like engine mounts, spinners, wheels, and big control horns. I distributed them all. It didn't take long before Du-Bro started with big plane merchandise, and by 1980 everyone got in on the act. I was at the organizational meeting of IMAA at Toledo in 1980, and was a member for 24 years (PS69). I finally dropped out in Jan. 2005, as for me, IMAA no longer served a purpose.
Giant Scale was getting popular at a rapid pace. Wendell Hostettler started with plans. Dario Brisighella came up with his "unbalance flywheel" to smooth vibrations from the Quadra 35 engines. I used to ship Dario a dozen wheels at a time, and would install them as an option on new engines. We sold a lot of Dario wheels. Dario also came out with plans to the Starduster Too. The "Concept Fleet" was I think the first giant scale kit to hit the market. Don Godfrey designed the 1/4 scale Stearman, and installed a Kioritz engine. I became a Kioritz dealer and kitted Don's beautiful airplane.
In 1978 I began kitting my 1/4 scale Ercoupe and Piper Tomahawk, for the Q35 engine. In the early 80's, Zenoah engines became popular, and I designed a 1/3 scale Ercoupe for the G-62, some 20 years before Balsa USA. By now, there were lots of dealers doing giant scale. Dick Bennett was a leader in giant scale accessories of all types and descriptions. If there was a need, Dick designed and got the item on the market.
No - giant scale didn't come from the trees! It started with the STARS in Olean, NY, and if you read the latest issue of Model Aviation, page 9, you will note that the AMA recognized that fact, and on August 28, 2005, the AMA gave out only its 2nd. Heritage Landmark Award, "the highest award that they give", to the STARS for their pioneering efforts in the development of Giant Scale Aircraft.
At that award presentation, we were able to have five of the original Bristol Scouts on hand for photos, and we flew three of them. Keep in mind that these airplanes are now 30 years old. That in itself, is a feat worth bragging about. See attached photos.
Sadly, you won't find any of this information in the IMAA history book, because the STARS club (chapter 003) was kicked out of the IMAA in about 1986 for refusing to not let smaller scale models fly with the big ones at their annual Scale Rally, so no mention of the STARS or their accomplishments, in the history book. However, that's not a problem, as we just completed our 28th. Scale Rally where all scales are welcome, and nobody is turned away if they have a scale model to fly, regardless of the size. Those that say big and small models don't mix, really don't know what they are talking about. This year, we even saw many electrics fly for the first time. And it's a fact, you really don't need IMAA to put on a good Scale Rally, where a lot of big airplanes are present.
There were a total of nine guys in on the Bristol Scout Squadron in 1975. Three have passed away, and there are six left. Five of them were present at the Awards presentation, made by Don Koranda, (Executive Director of AMA at Muncie), and Dave Mathewson (VP of District II).
The STARS club, organized in 1935 is probably the oldest club in the US today, but I have no way to prove that. I have been a member of both STARS and AMA for 64 consecutive years.
As a result of the Bristol Squadron, and the effect it had on attendance at out Scale Rallys, we made enough money to purchase our own flying field. Don Koranda said that to own your own field, and to keep a club going for 70 years is an achievement that few clubs ever realize, and so the Heritage Landmark Award is highly deserved. He went on to say that there are times when someone, or some group, does something that drasticallychanges the direction of the hobby, and the advent of giant scale was one of them.
A note to Frank Ponteri: I congratulate you on your meningful letter. One thing that always bothered me as a member of IMAA, was that once the organization got going, there was absolutely NO input from the membership. I always thought that I had a lot to offer, but had no way to communicate my thoughts to the heirarchy. It was like talking to a brick wall.
Photo one and two shows the five Bristols and a Phalz by Charlie Nellis, featuring wing warping as per the real one.
Photo three shows the five remaining pioneers, with the AMA bronze heritage award. From left to right they are, Charlie Nellis, Bill Messer, Jim Messer, Bob Dunn, and Lou Eltscher. My Bristol Scout is in photo also.
Photo three shows the three of the 30 year old Bristol Scouts getting ready to fly.
So there you have my story. It's all true, but as the others say - "fire away".
10-02-2005, 12:05 PM
#20
Banned
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
Thank you, Jim Messer. That's how I remember history, too. The STARS articles in MAN and the other mags got it all started. I remember it VIVIDLY. I remember Nosen coming along not too much later and bringing kits to the masses. But after you guys showed the way, everybody and their brother was converting all sorts of industrial engines.
And IMAA did not even EXIST back then.
To hear this BALONEY about "IMAA inventing Giant Scale"....it's absurd.
I think IMAA, and their petty power fight against QSAA, if anything, have set the hobby BACK, and probably have a lot to do with the decline of giant scale. Who wants to put up with the petty politics?
They also totally missed the boat on Giant Scale Aerobatics. Totally.
I say take the organization round back behind the shed and put it out of its misery already.
Anyway...always nice to hear some history, and it dovetails perfectly with what I remember of how things went. I was just a kid when those Bristols flew, beleive me, it was awe-inspiring to me.
And IMAA did not even EXIST back then.
To hear this BALONEY about "IMAA inventing Giant Scale"....it's absurd.
I think IMAA, and their petty power fight against QSAA, if anything, have set the hobby BACK, and probably have a lot to do with the decline of giant scale. Who wants to put up with the petty politics?
They also totally missed the boat on Giant Scale Aerobatics. Totally.
I say take the organization round back behind the shed and put it out of its misery already.
Anyway...always nice to hear some history, and it dovetails perfectly with what I remember of how things went. I was just a kid when those Bristols flew, beleive me, it was awe-inspiring to me.
10-02-2005, 02:10 PM
#22
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER
Ummm...okay. Listen, friend...how did you get from THERE to THERE? Frankly, you have NO IDEA as to what I build or how much, or how I feel about ARFs...you sound like you are snobbing out on the "offshore built ARF" crowd...who constitute 90% of modellers nowadays...Giant Scale or otherwise. Who are YOU to judge them? Maybe ATTITUDES like YOURS have EVERYTHING to do with why your club is shrinking at such a huge rate. Certainly they don't need YOU representing them in any way, someone who would turn away members, or look down on them because they bought "offshore built ARFs".
I would hazard a guess that I have built and flown more models than YOU, but I won't bring that up. I will say this...while I myself prefer building Cleveland Models from plans, or complicated turbine jets, I don't sneer at the ARF crowd. Which would be, what, 90% of modellers? What's wrong with ARFs, anyway?
Ummm...okay. Listen, friend...how did you get from THERE to THERE? Frankly, you have NO IDEA as to what I build or how much, or how I feel about ARFs...you sound like you are snobbing out on the "offshore built ARF" crowd...who constitute 90% of modellers nowadays...Giant Scale or otherwise. Who are YOU to judge them? Maybe ATTITUDES like YOURS have EVERYTHING to do with why your club is shrinking at such a huge rate. Certainly they don't need YOU representing them in any way, someone who would turn away members, or look down on them because they bought "offshore built ARFs".
I would hazard a guess that I have built and flown more models than YOU, but I won't bring that up. I will say this...while I myself prefer building Cleveland Models from plans, or complicated turbine jets, I don't sneer at the ARF crowd. Which would be, what, 90% of modellers? What's wrong with ARFs, anyway?
Kinda thought I might be wasting my time trying to get you to understand what IMAA is all about, and that seems to have been the case.
I would hazard a guess that I have built and flown more models than YOU, but I won't bring that up
I said nothing about turning away members, looking 'down' on members who have ARFs, or any other such idiotic nonsense.
It's you who have no idea about MY attitude or abilities yet you would play judge and jury.
I know that 90% of the AMA members' models I've seen this year are kit built models, not ARFs. Trust me when I say I've seen literally HUNDREDS of AMA members' models this year in my area of responsibility in North Georgia. HUNDREDS, and that does not count the Joe Nall or SEFF events because I had to work those weekends keeping the roof over my head.
I wouldn't hold the AMA position I have if I were all about "snobbing out on the offshore built ARF crowd".
You missed the entire point about ARF models : the buyer/operator of those models has no earthly idea whether the thing is constructed properly or whether the fins will fall off on the first flight, or if the wing will fold on the first flight, or even if the engine will stay put long enough to taxi out to the runway.
THAT is the problem with ARFs.
I've said it before and I'll say it again : IMAA never has been all about the cost of membership, and never will be.
$45,000 for a new giant scale handbook ?
Were you thinking that was just one more thing IMAA was supposed to provide for free ? OF COURSE THE MEMBERS HAVE TO BUY THE BOOK.
It IS all about the money after all, in your mind.
You can have the last word now, 'cuz I'm all done wasting time on you.
10-02-2005, 02:43 PM
#23
My Feedback: (3)
RE: IMAA Board Meeting
ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER
That's crazy talk! Seditious!
ORIGINAL: BasinBum
ET,
Please don't cloud the issue with things like "facts" and "actual proof" to make your point when vauge sweeping statements and ad hominem will do.
ET,
Please don't cloud the issue with things like "facts" and "actual proof" to make your point when vauge sweeping statements and ad hominem will do.
Easytiger,
Your arguments make as much sense as saying the AMA had nothing to do with the development of model aviation. Since that is a fact, maybe we should take the AMA EC out behind the woodshed and beat them to be consistent with your instructions. I strongly suggest you stop the personal attacks long enough to read and consider what is being presented rather than how it must be personal as it is not. No one said that the IMAA developed the giant scale idea, but it grouped folks together to aid and encourage each other. That was past history, unfortunatley. I am afraid that what happened to Jim Messer was just the beginning of the end as bad things decided by the 'leadership' did not stop there as many of us have tried to make clear.
Please note that I never did say that the IMAA BoD did not NEED to be taken out behind the woodshed. In fact, if you would read with an open mind that can be confused by FACTS I even made it clear that I have been at odds with that bunch for some time. You can find public notices where one of the IMAA presidents even implied the threat of litigation if I did not shut up about what was going on. If you read carefully, you will see that there are lots of folks here I have crossed swords with over the past bad actions of the IMAA BoD that now agree more with my original thesis than not.
Should the IMAA go away or should some of the members try to save it is the (valid and important) question and I suggest that if you are not a member, you have no input on what 'we' decide. If that idea bothers you enough to waste band with telling everyone how no good the IMAA is, you might reconsider what your real hobby is.
10-02-2005, 03:02 PM
#24
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
Hey Jim,
Without breaking down your posts paragraph by paragraph to try and make my point I'll just say that my overall impression is that you're statements are a bit contradictory. It does appear that you got personal first, you defend the IMAA yet say that it has major problems and you are discussing a topic in a public forum while telling someone they don't have a right to discuss it.
Without breaking down your posts paragraph by paragraph to try and make my point I'll just say that my overall impression is that you're statements are a bit contradictory. It does appear that you got personal first, you defend the IMAA yet say that it has major problems and you are discussing a topic in a public forum while telling someone they don't have a right to discuss it.
10-02-2005, 05:19 PM
#25
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RE: IMAA Board Meeting
BasinBum,
I disagree with you. If you wish to take apart my posts one paragraph at a time, please do so but use an even scale and do the exact same thing with Easytiger's posts. I think you will find that he was gone from this forum for a while and returned with a serious of personal attacks that was really surprising. They continue and are not limited to me but are scattered all over members of this forum.
Easytiger seems to enjoy the personal attack and goes out of his way to convert a simple discussion into one. That is his choice and I don't really care because the world is full of his kind. On this subject I felt he didn't know what he was talking about and said so, if he feels it is personal I know an AMA PhD he can see for the help he needs since his response was an invalid strawman argument. He is welcome to say what ever it is he feels is right about the IMAA and the people involved with it, no matter how disgusting his remarks are to people he has never met. My comment was to the validity of his remarks since he at no time has ever indicated any participation as a modeler in the area. That seems to point to a holier than thou approach to modeling, a thesis which his history of personal attacks supports.
Next cut of the same subject. I no longer bother to discuss things with that person in a civil manner as every attempt to do so is always rewarded with a personal attack that was not called for. I have learned and I now assume he is going to launch into another one of his personal tirades and act accordingly.
That is my opinion, and you are welcome to disagree.
I disagree with you. If you wish to take apart my posts one paragraph at a time, please do so but use an even scale and do the exact same thing with Easytiger's posts. I think you will find that he was gone from this forum for a while and returned with a serious of personal attacks that was really surprising. They continue and are not limited to me but are scattered all over members of this forum.
Easytiger seems to enjoy the personal attack and goes out of his way to convert a simple discussion into one. That is his choice and I don't really care because the world is full of his kind. On this subject I felt he didn't know what he was talking about and said so, if he feels it is personal I know an AMA PhD he can see for the help he needs since his response was an invalid strawman argument. He is welcome to say what ever it is he feels is right about the IMAA and the people involved with it, no matter how disgusting his remarks are to people he has never met. My comment was to the validity of his remarks since he at no time has ever indicated any participation as a modeler in the area. That seems to point to a holier than thou approach to modeling, a thesis which his history of personal attacks supports.
Next cut of the same subject. I no longer bother to discuss things with that person in a civil manner as every attempt to do so is always rewarded with a personal attack that was not called for. I have learned and I now assume he is going to launch into another one of his personal tirades and act accordingly.
That is my opinion, and you are welcome to disagree.