Sorry for posting this here but I'm not sure where else to put it.
I live in Liberty, MO. Two nights ago, I saw what appeared to be full scale tiger moth (not sure if it was a tiger moth, but it was a biplane with straight wings and a long tail moment like the moth) doing stall turns over the city. He was too low to pull out should something go wrong. I have never seen anyone do anything remotely like that outside of an airshow and certinly not over a populated city. We have a few cessnas and such that will fly pretty low and make pretty sharp turns, but not deliberatly stall at low altitudes.
What is you guys's opinion on this?

It was a stupid thing to do. Certainly never over a populated area you describe.

Many pilots have bought the farm doing just that maneuver.

3dbob

As a full scale pilot with a commercial license, I can tell you that over congested areas, a pilot legally (FAR 91.119,b) has to be at an altitude of at least 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a 2,000 feet horizontal radius of the aircraft at all times, unless it is some type of waivered operation like what I do in my pipeline patrol flying. Aerobatics does not qualify as a waivered operation unless it's being conducted at some type of airshow or contest, and then only in designated areas. There is another rule in the Federal Aviation Regulations that deals with aerobatics and where they may be conducted, and it sure as heck is not allowed over a town. Take it from my experience, there are lots and lots of total boneheads out there with pilot certificates that pay absolutely no attention to the rules, and are an accident waiting to happen. You just hope that when it happens, they dont take innocent people with them because of their stupidity.

Since you don't even know what plane you are looking at(a Tiger Moth has swept back, not straight, wings) I don't know if you are in a position to judge how high one needs to be to recover from a stall turn.

Wellll, I dont really see what difference it makes whether he can judge the altitude or not, any pilot with a lick of sense for safety should know that there is an inherent risk there, and it shouldnt be done over a bunch of HOUSES in a CITY! I've got a bunch of hours flying at low altitudes, both ag flying and pipeline patrol, and theres just some things you dont do close to the ground unless you're mentally deficient in some capacity.

Well said. Somehow I just don't think clearing turns made the grade for this 'event'.

Coolbean, I see you are in Liberty, MO... I'm not sure exactly where that is in Missouri, but is it possible you were seeing an agricultural aircraft making an application to a field? I know there's still a little spraying going on up there this time of year. You probably would have seen him pulling up and making what would appear, to anyone unfamiliar with ag flying operations, a turn like you described if he was light. About the only biplane left that is used in ag ops is the Grumman Ag Cat. It has straight wings, but a short fuselage. Myself, and a lot of other ag pilots will make very short turns at the end of a pass, after the load starts coming off and the weight is not such a factor. It involves a pull up, 45 deg. turn, then a 225 deg. turn in the opposite direction to line up for the next pass. About halfway through that turn, you start your decent back into the field. That all happens pretty quick, and at the top of the turn when you start back down, it looks as though the aircaft stalls, but it doesnt. You said the aircraft had a longer fuselage, so it probably wasnt an Ag Cat, but I thought it might be a possibility.

Sounds like another activity we are involved in with flying as the main event.

In one to one scale, especially in the military, at best, calculated risks are normally required to accomplish the mission. If the mission is -- as most of the time in RC toy-airplanes -- just to show off or satisfy ego, then such undue risks are, as you so state, stupid.

As a military pilot, did I ever do STUPID things -- You betchum, Red Rider! Both intentionally and un-intentionally.

As a commercial pilot, did I ever do stupid things -- again yes, however not intentionally. Shot happens.

I had an opportunity once some years ago to go flying with a guy in his Chipmunk out east of San Jose, CA. He showed me an area where future acrobatic show-pilot wanna'bees did their practice. There certainly were many spots on those hillsides. Back then I had no idea so many people bought the farm in that activity. As I learned more about civil aviation, I remained amazed at the number of serious light airplane accidents each year in the U.S.

That is one reason I am so concerned about RC Safety, as so many newbies in the activity have no clue as to just how dangerous it can be. Far too many don't seem to care.

Pretty much all we have around here is corn and he was no where near a field. He was over MY house. I thought he was going for a loop when I first saw him. He didn't quite get vertical then kicked the rudder over just before stalling. Like a really sloppy hammerhead. Then as soon as he picked up airspeed coming down, he went right back up and did it again. This happened at least 3 times in a row.
As far as juding what type of aircraft it was. I'm sorry for not being able to identify every biplane ever made. It was definitly not a modern design though.
As far as how high it was, I'm horrible at guestimating altitude, but this guy was low. I found someone else at work who had seen the event and she said he was flying lower than she had ever seen someone fly before. I've seen a lot of full scale and model shows as well as flying models myself for 10 years and I know if something had gone wrong, this guy was not going to be able to pull out.

"I'm horrible at guestimating altitude, but this guy was low."

Except you are horrible at guesstimating altitude, by your own admission.


"I've seen a lot of full scale and model shows as well as flying models myself for 10 years and I know if something had gone wrong, this guy was not going to be able to pull out."

No, you didn't. One of my best pals, a modelling buddy, has a full-scale Tiger Moth, and I've flown it a bunch. Actually, TWO of my pals have tiger moths. Anyway, I've done stall turns in a tiger moth. Have you?

I think you are worrying about nothing, and it was probably a cropduster.

"We don't have any fields around here...except corn."
Yeah. Except corn. But, of course, you said it was a city. They do spray corn. I was watching an Ag-Cat bipe spray the corn the other day, they fly very low indeed. Neat, neat airplane.

If he was that low did you get his "N" number?
Did you call it in?
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JLK

I am horrible at putting a number on altitude. The nearest field is about 10 miles away and had he been over a field i would have said, "hey, that's neat" and gone on with my life. But he was over MY HOUSE.

If you are not good at judging distance/altitude I wouldn't worry about it. 500 or 1000 feet sounds pretty high. But, if you ever see a low level military parachute jump or a low level flight (when you know the altitude) you would be surprised how low it appears visually.

[link=http://www.kcnet.com\~coolbean\map.jpg]Map[/link]
The red dot is my house. Yes the guy did fly over my house but most of his acrobatics was more to the west north west. As you can see, no corn fields. The big field to the north is owned by Hallmark, the huge plant you see at the top right. They sometimes rent the land out to Elk farmers, but no crops.

I agree it sounds dangerous, but what is this forum or the AMA going to do about it? Unless you can identify the aircraft (get the N number) and report it to the FAA, its just a story. Since you have no idea who it was, what kinda plane it was or how low he was flying, perhaps you should make the story better. It was a Pitts Special N number N5374W flying 5 feet over my house inverted. Then at least everyone on here would believe you saw something crazy.

Hmm, that was helpful.

Not to the Pitts driver!

Thats what happened to that Kennedy fellow and those two young ladys a few years back, 1 Bonehead, 2 had no business at the controls of a plane, 3 flying at night with no instrument flight training, 4 cost him & two others their lives.

What this guy was posibly looking at might have been a turbine Ag-Cat , with your past ag flying i know you know what they look like, P.S. my father is a retired cropduster of 32 years. started out in Stearmans, & went on to Ag-Cats also has worked with Piper Pawnee's & Cessna's Ag Husky's & Ag wagons no turbines though,

Yea ! And he was holding a drink with one of those cute little umbrella's !