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Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

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Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Old 11-24-2005, 03:27 PM
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Default Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

This poll is to try to help show the AMA that its members care who represents them on the World Championship Level. US Teams need to be made up from US Citizens first and foremost. If there is not enough US Citizens to field a team then and only then we should we allow others to go as Americans. We have hundreds of great pilots that will probably never see a World Champs already, due to the incredible competition that we have amongst just the American pilots. Now they want to open the field so that any resident can compete. Thats just not fair to the people that were citizens first. Many Countries have citizenship as the standard for being able to compete and the US needs to adopt the same.

I assure you this is much more to me then the finish order of any contest. This is about being proud to being an American , as well as being a US Citizen. Remember: A US Citizen pledges allegance to the flag, to where as a resident does not.
Old 11-24-2005, 06:46 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

I couldn't agree more!
Old 11-24-2005, 06:58 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

U.S. Citizens period....

How can there not be enough?????
Then you go with a smaller team or a pilot who could use the experience....
Old 11-24-2005, 07:22 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: Double-vision

This poll is to try to help show the AMA that its members care who represents them on the World Championship Level. US Teams need to be made up from US Citizens first and foremost. If there is not enough US Citizens to field a team then and only then we should we allow others to go as Americans. We have hundreds of great pilots that will probably never see a World Champs already, due to the incredible competition that we have amongst just the American pilots. Now they want to open the field so that any resident can compete. Thats just not fair to the people that were citizens first. Many Countries have citizenship as the standard for being able to compete and the US needs to adopt the same.

I assure you this is much more to me then the finish order of any contest. This is about being proud to being an American , as well as being a US Citizen. Remember: A US Citizen pledges allegance to the flag, to where as a resident does not.
Double-vision

Your assertion is in error. The current situation is not as you describe. The following is from the EC Minutes from October 2005. It is followed by an e-mail between myself and Mr. Kaluf. Please note the date (e-mail address edited).

If you are going to make an issue of something, at least get the facts straight. Your representation is a total misrepresentation of the way things have been in the past.


***********
U.S. Team Eligibility
• It is being requested that AMA instate a policy requiring U.S. citizenship for any member trying out for a U.S. team. A decision on this request is under the purview of the FAI Executive Committee. The President indicated that AMA follows the FAI policy which does not require citizenship but does require residency of the country an individual wishes to represent. He also noted that a proposal is set to go before the FAI General Conference requesting the residency requirement be reduced from three years to one year. The NAA polled the U.S. air sports organizations on their view of this proposal; the AMA President offered a resounding no. Depending on the outcome of this issue it may be necessary for the AMA to write their own policy on residency requirements. It would be extremely difficult to require proof of citizenship, as percentage wise not many people have U.S. passports.
***********


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Kaluf [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 5:36 AM
To: Jean and Debbie Rondot
Subject: RE: FAI

Jean-Pierre, this depends on your definition of involved in FAI. If you mean competing in FAI events the number is much higher than those competing in FAI sanctioned events.

I would guess we have about 1000-2000 or a little more that compete in FAI events at AMA competitions. However those that participate in FAI sanctioned events would be more on the scale of 300.

Steve Kaluf
Technical Director
Academy of Model Aeronautics
United States of America
Ph: 765-287-1256 x 230
Fax: 765-286-3303


From: Jean and Debbie Rondot [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:23 PM
To: Steve Kaluf
Subject: FAI
Hi Steve

Can you tell me approximately how many AMA members are involved in FAI? Would the number of sporting licenses by a fair indicator, or are those only likely for those that have made the teams?

Jean-Pierre Rondot (J_R)
AMA 732
Old 11-24-2005, 07:27 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Well, of course a team representing the USA should be American! It would be UnAmerican to have it any other way! A team representing Canada should be Canadian, a Team representing Japan should be Japaneese Citizens, etc etc. If they allow nonAmerican Citizens to represent America, then that indeed is very sad, and very unsportsman like. You play with the team you have, and not the dream team you wish you had! If it means that much to someone to compete on an American team, then that person should come an go through the long process of becomming a US citizen, and then pledge to always protect and serve the American Flag for which it stands! I really hope AMA is not seriously considering such an unpatriotic unsportsman like idea such as this!
Old 11-24-2005, 07:29 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Thanks for clearing that up J.R! I must have posted the same time as you!
Old 11-24-2005, 10:36 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

DV, I fully agree with you which in itself isn't worth much.

In addition the sentence in the AMA minutes, "It would be extremely difficult to require proof of citizenship, as percentage wise not many people have U.S. passports." is one dumb -***** statement. In this day and age having a passport is a normal thing.

If any U.S. citizen wants to be on an FAI team, that citizen will well be able to have a passport. I wonder just how the person making the above quoted minutes-statement thinks a non-citizen resident is smarter than a U.S. citizen concerning obtaining passports? [:'(]

The statement certainly rules out any consideration of the EC to require U.S. citizenship for U.S. / AMA FAI teams.
Old 11-25-2005, 02:36 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

I agree totally with DV, it should be U.S. Citizens only. The statement of "It would be extremely difficult to require proof of citizenship" is a cop-out. The AMA needs to open their eyes and see how many outstanding pilots are out there in our outstanding country.
Old 11-25-2005, 10:45 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Yep, should all be US Citizens.

By the way, does anyone know how many world champs the FAI conducts during a cycle? Does anyone know how long the cycle is? Does anyone know how many spots on US teams go wanting for lack of participants that are US Citizens? How about postions that go wanting for lack of ANYONE to fill them?

Heck, how many know what FAI stands for or is?
Old 11-25-2005, 11:32 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

My facts are just what I claim and the only thing misrepresented is how this entire mess was ruled upon without letting even one of the people it will affect have a say or vote in the matter. Most (Pattern Flyers) work the better part of there lives for just one thing and that is to be able to go to a world championship. We have 15 Americans in F3A alone that could do very well at a Worlds if they could go. Now that is next to impossible, even if they can manage to beat one of the top three americans they still will not make the team.

For those of you new to FAI I will try to explain it in terms most can easily grasp. In order to make the US team as an american all that has to be done is simpley beat the guys that came in 2nd 3rd and 4th at the 2001-2003 worlds, not gonna happen. Not to mention I am the old guy at 34 and I have no intention of stepping down anytime soon, nor to the others. Its a shame because we have just recently seen a few young guys knocking on the door in F3A, however I am sure they will beat there heads against the wall a time or two and then fade out of the picture, unless we do something now.

Now for the final facts. I am the FAI rules committee chairman and I was put in this position to look out for the best interests of all flyers that compete in F3A. I have competed in something like 12 World Champs and even been fortunate enough to win a couple of them. I stand behind my statements and have spoken at length with Bob Skinner and Jean Pierre and this is what I am told by both of them.

"The FAI rules are the minimums allowed in order to compete in a worlds. Each country is able to then adopt whatever it has to in order to make sure there citizens get the chance to represent there country FAIRLY".

Now with that info. I have spoken with Dave Brown personally many times, as have many others, and for some reason it just isn't getting through that we as american citizens want to represent ourselves and not have others in our places. Other countries can rarely compete with us on a team level now, and we are trying to bring in a ringer, as far as they are concerned. I hope this poll will help make a difference, I am tired of spending hours on the phone trying to resolve this situation, only to be told, "there wouldn't be a situation, if It werent for me. " I had no idea what I was in for when i took this position but now theres no turning back. So many people have been contacting me lately wanting to know how I let this happen. I assure everyone that is not the case, the desision was made very quietly some time ago. Now it will take all of you to make a difference.

In closing, I would like just say, I am a great supporter of the AMA and what it does for all of us. However I feel they have made a huge mistake concerning our Teams, and we half get it corrected while there is still time.

The worlds are not until 2007 so tell your friends and lets see what the majority thinks is the best option.

Oh I almost forgot, the racing team tried the non american route and I if I am not mistaken the non american came in last, but wouldn't you know it he was able to supply his country with all the stuff it required for them to win the contest and the Team Catagory, the first time ever. I hope this was not intentional but you see what happened and that was the first time.



Thanks for listening/caring

Chip Hyde
F3A Rules Committee Chairman
12 time US Team Member
2 time World Champion (Individual)
6 time World Champion (Team)


Double-vision

Your assertion is in error. The current situation is not as you describe. The following is from the EC Minutes from October 2005. It is followed by an e-mail between myself and Mr. Kaluf. Please note the date (e-mail address edited).

If you are going to make an issue of something, at least get the facts straight. Your representation is a total misrepresentation of the way things have been in the past.


***********
U.S. Team Eligibility
• It is being requested that AMA instate a policy requiring U.S. citizenship for any member trying out for a U.S. team. A decision on this request is under the purview of the FAI Executive Committee. The President indicated that AMA follows the FAI policy which does not require citizenship but does require residency of the country an individual wishes to represent. He also noted that a proposal is set to go before the FAI General Conference requesting the residency requirement be reduced from three years to one year. The NAA polled the U.S. air sports organizations on their view of this proposal; the AMA President offered a resounding no. Depending on the outcome of this issue it may be necessary for the AMA to write their own policy on residency requirements. It would be extremely difficult to require proof of citizenship, as percentage wise not many people have U.S. passports.
***********


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Kaluf [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 5:36 AM
To: Jean and Debbie Rondot
Subject: RE: FAI

Jean-Pierre, this depends on your definition of involved in FAI. If you mean competing in FAI events the number is much higher than those competing in FAI sanctioned events.

I would guess we have about 1000-2000 or a little more that compete in FAI events at AMA competitions. However those that participate in FAI sanctioned events would be more on the scale of 300.

Steve Kaluf
Technical Director
Academy of Model Aeronautics
United States of America
Ph: 765-287-1256 x 230
Fax: 765-286-3303


From: Jean and Debbie Rondot [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:23 PM
To: Steve Kaluf
Subject: FAI
Hi Steve

Can you tell me approximately how many AMA members are involved in FAI? Would the number of sporting licenses by a fair indicator, or are those only likely for those that have made the teams?

Jean-Pierre Rondot (J_R)
AMA 732

[/quote]
Old 11-25-2005, 11:35 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

The highly covetted spots on the combat teams are gobbled up 100% by US AMERICANS every time. The competitors are private individuals who pay their own way to the try outs, there is no national assistance. For the most part the events are about individual acheivement and have nothing to do with which flag you were born under. Nationalism has no place in sports, it leads to lop sided judging and creates a perfect forum for those with political agendas to make their statements.

My high school math teacher was ARCHIE WILLIAMS, who ran with JESSIE OWENS in front of HITLER in 1936, and his feelings about international competition was that all the participants should show up wearing white shirts and trunks, and the only competition should be against either the tape measure or the clock, not each others' flags..
Old 11-25-2005, 11:49 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

trust me there are no shortage of citizens in all of the FAI events in the US as far as Pattern, Racing, and Heli are concerned. I cannot speak for the other disiplines, but I haven't heard of any open slots.

BTW---- FAI---- Federation Aeronautique Internationale

Chip
ORIGINAL: J_R

Yep, should all be US Citizens.

By the way, does anyone know how many world champs the FAI conducts during a cycle? Does anyone know how long the cycle is? Does anyone know how many spots on US teams go wanting for lack of participants that are US Citizens? How about postions that go wanting for lack of ANYONE to fill them?

Heck, how many know what FAI stands for or is?
Old 11-25-2005, 11:57 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Chip,
Citizenship should be easy to prove.
Everyone of us should have a birth certificate that would show where in the U.S. we were born.
If someone is naturalized then they would have citizenship papers.
Hey!
How 'bout that '85 Mustang GT back in Lake Charles at the Masters?
JLK
Old 11-25-2005, 09:31 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Born in the USA pilots should make up the US Team. No offense to the great pilots from other countries that live and work in the US now.

We see it in the Olympics all the time. NBA, NHL, baseball and soccer players, playing for their own country, why would airplanes be any different?

I would rather have the US team place lower with an all US born team verses a top placing team with US citizens on it.

Your on the right track Chip.

Old 11-25-2005, 10:31 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

I'm with you Chip. Thanks for puting your neck out there.

Good luck
Greg
Old 11-26-2005, 01:11 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


About all I can say after reading this over several times is "God save us from the politicians and attorneys". Seems like another guy said something like this several thousand years ago, but obviously we did not listen. We are a nation of laws and imagrants. It unfortunate that we have lost our way as a nation way back in the Rosevelt era. Guess should not go here, here.
Old 11-26-2005, 04:16 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

I believe a US world champion team should be US citizens and that goes for other teams an Australian team should be Australian citizens.
Otherwise the the larger countries will gobble up all the best pilots and it would not be a world championship!
Old 11-26-2005, 07:50 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

It seems ridiculous to call it a US team if it's not...
Old 11-26-2005, 09:08 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

I think requiring citizenship is probably a good idea, but requiring members be born in the USA may be going too far. In addition to the argument that naturalized citizens should not be treated different, lots of folks that were US citizens at birth were not born in the USA. Should a pilot who was born while his parents were in the military stationed overseas be excluded?

Other than the difficulty of determining citizenship, what is the argument for not requiring citizenship?

ORIGINAL: YNOT

Born in the USA pilots should make up the US Team. No offense to the great pilots from other countries that live and work in the US now.

We see it in the Olympics all the time. NBA, NHL, baseball and soccer players, playing for their own country, why would airplanes be any different?

I would rather have the US team place lower with an all US born team verses a top placing team with US citizens on it.

Your on the right track Chip.

Old 11-26-2005, 09:24 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

If citizenship is the requirement, it's actually pretty easy to determine. The typical documentation would be birth certificate, naturalization papers, or passport. I agree that being US born is too restrictive. If citizenship is the criteria, what happens to people who are permanant residents? There are many people who have made the US their home, but have not yet become naturalized citizens.
Old 11-26-2005, 09:32 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Chuck,
In my opinion then those people, the permanent resident without being naturalized, would not be eligible.
Just my opinion.
But you know there are all kinds of special situations that may occur.
Did you know that U.S. citizenship is not a requirement to serve in the armed forces?
What about the guy that joins the Marines and serves a couple tours getting his tail shot at?
Would he qualify?
JLK
Old 11-26-2005, 10:03 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Dear Double-Vision:

The PIPE here again...and OF COURSE any US Team representative SHOULD, by all means, be a "by birth within US state or territory", or naturalized US citizen !

In my case, since I can NEVER fly at the AMA Nats due to my heatstroke illness in 1980 (summers in Muncie, I have heard, are BRUTALLY hot and MUGGY) without a serious risk to my health, I've long considered that "someday" I MIGHT participate in the Canadian Nats instead. If the MAAC selected their Canadian RC Scale World Champs via their Nats, as the USA does, and I placed third in FAI RC Scale with Canadians in 1st, 2nd and 4th places, I'd simply be 'the highest placing US citizen' in the Canadian Nats' FAI RC Scale event..and the fourth place Canadian would, of course, be the third place team member for Canada's FAI RC Scale team.

In my main participant sport of tenpin bowling, governed internationally by the organization at http://www.fiq.org/ (the EXACT equivalent of the FAI in bowling sports) they've most likely got the same requirement..it makes sense THERE, too!

So I wholeheartedly agree...a US citizen SHOULD be representing the USA on our teams, in FAI aeromodeling competitions!

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE!
Old 11-26-2005, 11:43 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: Double-vision

...only to be told, "there wouldn't be a situation, if It werent for me. " I had no idea what I was in for when i took this position but now theres no turning back. So many people have been contacting me lately wanting to know how I let this happen. I assure everyone that is not the case, the desision was made very quietly some time ago. Now it will take all of you to make a difference.


I really understand what you are up against. You are fighting the good fight...more power to you! Thanks to you and people like you that have courage and determination not to follow along just because that would be the easy way...That spirit is the REAL American way!
Old 11-26-2005, 01:11 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Luck of the draw at birth should have nothing to do with eligibility. If a person has jumped through all the hoops to become a legal US citizen, and in some cases served in our military, then by all means they should be eligible for everthing any AMERICAN is entitled to.

Some people must say to themselves, when looking at a photo of a victorious US team standing at the podium, that WE won. WE didn't win anything, THOSE individuals were the winners, and in reality they don't represent the rest of us, they represent themselves and the hard work that they did to get there, foreign born or not. Rooting for the home team is only natural, but it is easy to lose perspective about what the sport of flying model airplanes in competition is all about. If the sport ever evolved into a deal where the flyers were paid as full time employees of the US GOVERNMENT and granted a 100% free ride to practice everyday, assigned with a team of engineers,mechanics and builders, then I suppose their acheivements WOULD become more of a WE kind of thing.
Old 11-26-2005, 01:54 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

CP: "Some people must say to themselves, when looking at a photo of a victorious US team standing at the podium, that WE won. WE didn't win anything, THOSE individuals were the winners, and in reality they don't represent the rest of us, they represent themselves and the hard work that they did to get there, foreign born or not. "
No real argument there, yet in the same arena, about 90% of the politicians representing the United States as either U.S. PAID employees / elected officials, spokes persons for the U.S. definitely do NOT represent this specific person. They represent themselves and the financial interests that have bought them and placed them in their respective position.

As members of the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA), FAI competition persons are in a group that is somewhat funded by the organization that I am also a member of. In addition the FAI contestants would not be there if the AMA had not paid the NAA franchise fee which in some small amount comes from my dues monies. I have also donated funds to specific FAI teams and will continue to do so at my choice.

Actually, had I been elected as the EVP, it would not have been very long before the U.S. FAI Team contestants would have found a much more generous funding for the "....hard work that they did to get there..." and a strong friend when it comes to the question of U.S. Citizens only. Oh well the sun is setting on that item. So be it.

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