MHawker

My Feedback: (16)

Not too up on the rules, but saw this one in one of the last MA mags and had a question. It said a new rule for 2006 was that pilots had to be 25 feet away from other pilot and their helpers. On our flightline, we stand very close to each other.

Does this new rule mean we will have to separate our pilot stations by 25 feet?

Thanks.

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

Here is the rule:

"7. With the exception of events flown under AMA Competition rules, excluding takeoff and landing, no powered model may be flown outdoors closer than 25 ft from any individual, except for the pilot and pilot's helper(s) located at the flight line."

My interpretation is that you should not fly any closer than 25 feet to the flight line, except during landing and takeoff.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Apparently the rule is intended to prevent certain flying activities over the runway such as hovering near other pilots. However there are unexpected consequences with this poorly worded rule. Hmmm…. flybys are not generally allowed with other pilots at the flight line. How are new or learning pilots supposed to make attempts at landings... Oh! I think I got it...we should not allow any new pilots at the field!!!

N1EDM

My Feedback: (2)

Actually, I believe that the rule is there to prevent intermod between adjacent transmitters which could cause glitches in either/both airplanes.

In plain English, if the radios are too close to each other, then under certain circumstances, they could interfere with each other. It's just a precaution. 25 feet isn't that far, and I think that it was 30 feet at one point.

Bob

MHawker

My Feedback: (16)

Thanks, Red. I would interpret the rule you posted above the same way you did. I did not get the same impression from what I read in the magazine, but I'll have to look at the magazine again and post what it said...... unless of course I read it wrong.

MHawker

My Feedback: (16)

Given Bob's reply, I believe we may be talking about two different rules afterall.

I will check the magazine tonight, unless someone has one handy. It was either the December or November issue. I got them both the same day. It was a section with 2006 rule changes.

MajorTomski

littlecrankshaf, I don't think it's poorly worded.

"7. With the exception of events flown under AMA Competition rules, excluding takeoff and landing, no powered model may be flown outdoors closer than 25 ft from any individual, except for the pilot and pilot's helper(s) located at the flight line."


...excluding take off and landing... practicing approaches are part of learning to land.

Is the centerline of your runway is closer than 25 feet from the nearest pilot on the flightline? If so that's close!

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

I am sure glad you are somewhere other than here with you interpretations!! That is defiantly not the case. The Flight line can be 15 or more feet from the pilots. Your interpretation is valid only if the pilots are right up against the flight line which is not the case usually.

With your interpretation the flight line could be moved out to 50 foot and given another 25 as you think…before long we would be flying in the next county.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Oh I see... I should just holler landing and hover until I get in perfect position for a harrier landing...I see that works fine for me. So why worry Hmmm......

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Opps... going around!

bhole74

2006 Safety Code:

#7. With exception of events flown under official AMA Competition Regulations rules, excluding takeoff and landing, no powered model may be flown outdoors closer than 25 feet to any individual, except for the pilot and the pilots helper(s) located at the flightline.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Opps... going around!

bhole74

LCS...don't run out of fuel!

brownknows

Actually there is clarification of this on the AMA website as follows:

[link=http://www.modelaircraft.org/06safecodecorr.asp]http://www.modelaircraft.org/06safecodecorr.asp[/link]

"...The description indicates that a distance of 25 feet must be maintained between pilots. The intent of the change is in keeping with the current rule and addresses the distance between pilots and aircraft, not between pilots."

N1EDM

My Feedback: (2)

Yup, I jumped too quickly on that one.. Sorry about the confusion that I caused...

Bob

Hossfly

7. With the exception of events flown under official AMA Competition Regulations rules, excluding takeoff and landing,
no powered model may be flown outdoors closer than 25 feet to any individual, except for the pilot and the pilot's helper(s) located at the flightline.

Giving the devil his due, "l..c.s.ft" is actually correct in calling this a "....poorly worded rule." While applying everyday RC jargon to the rule, IMO 99.9% can abide by the rule's intent, as I and Red, et.al. so perceive that intent.

Yet, in AMA's own recommendations for flying facilities, the PILOT LINE is depicted as within the 15 to 25 ft. area behind the FLIGHT LINE which designates the edge of the runway. Therefore the pilot should never be on the FLIGHT LINE. The rule should be referenced to the PILOT LINE.

OTOH, my club's pilot stations are positioned slightly over 15 ft. from the 100 ft. wide RW's nearest edge. Any pilot landing within anything closer than 40 ft. to the pilot line is, IMO, totally out of control. When instructing, and my student appears to be headed to within those distances as I so estimate those distances, I take control, initiate a go-around with a turn away from the pilot line and we start all over. He learns there is no treat for misbehavior. [>:]

exeter_acres

My Feedback: (2)

One of the few times I agree with Hoss.....

Geeeez people... there is NO REASON to every be within 25' of anyone while flying!.... excpet landing or taking off....and even then if you are landing or taking off within 25' of another person....you need to practice takeoffs and landings!!!!!

Move on

MHawker

My Feedback: (16)

Ok, quoting directly from the November 2005 issue of MA, page 9 at the bottom:

"AMA Safety Code Changes for 2006

Item 6 in the Radio Control section clarifies and existing rule that requires outdoor fliers to maintain 25 feet between themselves and other pilots and their helpers."

I interpret this to be directing that the pilots "themselves" be 25 feet away from other pilots and their helpers. Also referenced by Brownknows' post.

I do not see this is the same as the "don't fly your plane within 25 feet of the flightline rule".

Are we discussing two different rules? If so, my question relates directly to the distance PILOTS must maintain between other PILOTS, not the flightline. Or in other words, how close can I stand to another pilot while I am flying my plane?

J_R

http://www.modelaircraft.org/06safecodecorr.asp

"2006 Safety Code Clarification

The brief description of changes to item 6 of the Radio Control section of the 2006 Safety Code found on page 9 of the November issue of Model Aviation conveys an incorrect impression of the actual text in the Code. The description indicates that a distance of 25 feet must be maintained between pilots. The intent of the change is in keeping with the current rule and addresses the distance between pilots and aircraft, not between pilots. The actual text states:

"6. With the exception of events flown under official AMA Competition Regulations rules, excluding takeoff and landing, no powered model may be flown outdoors closer than 25 feet to any individual, except for the pilot and the pilot's helper(s) located at the flight line."

The complete 2006 AMA Safety Code will be included in the December issue of Model Aviation. We regret any inconvenience this misleading information may have caused.

—AMA Safety Committee"

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

exeter_acres

What you may not be considering is, the hobby has changed and is continuing to evolve. When I fly my palm sized heli I have a hard time seeing it well at twenty-five feet.

There is simply no way to make such a rule, as this, that does not discriminate against someone’s flying style or choice of aircraft or that may not be misinterpreted by a Barney Fife type or construed to the best effect by some ambulance chaser.

It is my contention that communication with all pilots and helpers involved is the best answer. If you’re not a pilot then shut up about what happens beyond the flight line. But if you are a pilot I am sure something can be worked out that all can be happy with…just keep an open mind and communicate.

Hmmm...I got it! I got it! Maybe there should be some rule about intentionally flying behind the flight line. Therefore the flight-line can be used to set the margin needed. On second thought that would be dumb…because it seems no one knows what a flight-line is…

the-plumber

Um . . . not.

A simple example uses two Txs, where there are eight fundamental frequencies (2 cubed), six of which are second and third order image frequencies :

1 : frequency of Tx A
2 : frequency of Tx B
3 : sum of 1 and 2 above
4 : difference between 1 and 2 above
5 : 1 plus 3
6 : 1 minus 3
7 : 1 plus 4
8 : 1 minus 4
9 : 2 plus 3
10 : 2 minus 3
11 : 2 plus 4
12 : 2 minus 4

The frequences generated by combinations of 1 through 4 plus and minus 5 through 12 are 3rd order and are much weaker signals. Note that 6 and 11 are 'no problem' results because the frequency produced by those functions are not R/C channel frequencies. Someone's garage door may be having a fit, but not one of our models.

Note equally that 8 and 12, if produced by the 'right' combination of 1 and 2 could be frequencies that _are_ used in R/C.

Rx A can't hear 2, 3, or 4, and Rx B can't hear 1, 3, or 4. It's not Rx A or Rx B which are in jeopardy because their RF stages are tuned to 1 and 2 respectively, and the RF stage output is well above the level needed to keep the attention of the IF strip in the case that 8 or 12 is actually an R/C frequency.

Tx A and Tx B can't hear each other because obliviously neither one >receives< anything. You could turn on fifty Txs and stack 'em up in a pile and the only thing the Txs would be subject to is the weight of the units on top.

The IM issue arises when Rx C shows up.

If Rx C uses a frequency that matches either 8 or 12 which have been produced by the 'right' combination of 1 and 2, that Rx starts doing whatever the little voices in it's head tell it to do.

I have it somewhere in my archives, but suffice it to say that there is a mathematical function which calculates the "threat" IM products generated from any pair of fundamental frequencies we presently use.

The good part is that unless the active Txs are very close together, the IM products will have a very low signal strength and thus are not a problem.

When the Txs are close enough together to produce an IM product with a strong level, Rx C had better not be on that IM frequency.

We at Bartow County Model Aviation had a sho-nuff' IM shoot-down a few months ago. The three guys at the field were able to reproduce the phenomenon at will after they swept up the debris.

It's not the Txs or the associated Rxs which could have a problem, it's a third Rx which might have the problem.

J_R

Shoot. This rule is there for one reason. It is designed to keep one pilot from hovering in the face of another.

The Raven

They are talking about the distance between a plane and humans, not pilots standing next to each other as they fly.

SoonerAce

My Feedback: (1)

Do not adjust your Elev trim, Do not adjust your Rudder trim. You are now entering ,,,,,,,,,,
The Twilight Zone!

50%plane

My Feedback: (5)

It seems to me that this rule keeps the AMA from paying out any dough if someone was to fly their plane into someone else. Also, I don't think that it was really talking about hovering as because, if a pilot were wanting to hover around another individual or himself, He is still able to since: "no powered model may be flown outdoors closer than 25 feet to any individual, except for the pilot and the pilots helper(s)"


Woops