Just returned from the field today where we had two very close calls. A Laser 200 piloted by a 72 year old with poor vision and Parkinson's slammed in the pit area after the guy lost control of it. The pilot is a great guy, but not very safe.
One hour later a 74 Year old member crashed into the side of our club house after 4 aborted landing attempts with his large biplane. The guy shakes so badly while flying that the stick moves about 1 inch from side to side during normal level flight.
Would it be a good idea to come up with some kind of proficiency training after hitting 65?? Like with drivers licenses? Maybe some kind of test at the beginning of the flying season performed in front of a CD or the club instructor.

Lets have some input.

(And yes, I too have met older guys who flies the pi$$ out of anything, but it's the unsafe ones I'm talking about)

Brian

Brian,
Sorry you had a scary day. Sounds to me like you don't have enough club members interested in safety. I say that because it seems that neither old guy had a spotter who would assist in times of trouble. If there were 'spotters', you have a real problem that NEEDS to be addressed at your next club meeting.

Maybe we need to define the real task of a 'spotter' so that your next club meeting is not just a blood letting because some poor guy didn't have a clue what he was supposed to do or your club doesn't even bother to think about public safety.

Red Scholefield has defined the spotters task as good as I have ever seen, but here is my cut at it. There are 3 separate tasks a spotter is responsible for. First task is to insure that the runway status (is or is not clear) is always know to the pilot. Second is to try to warn the pilot when HIS aircraft is about to endanger another. Third is to warn the pilot when he is about to enter the potential flight path of another. And the last unstated job of the 'spotter' it to render aid and assistance before the pilot runs out of ideas, airspeed, and altitude.

That last sentence implies that the 'spotter' is to help Frank Flightpack get the plane onto the correct side of the pilots line by whatever means necessary. This is where a spotter really earns their 'keep'.

Your idea about an age based 'mother may I' test probably won't fly very far. However if you implement the spotter rule above some stated age, you will probably not get too much grief and you will play in a safer environment.

Good luck,

Jim Branaum
AMA 1428

The spotter question should not have anything to do with age, rather it should have to do with the population at the flight line. With two guys at the field, you really don't need a spotter. With ten, you probably do.

Large clubs should institute rules that requre every member to act as a spotter if there are more than 4 pilot stations occupied. The logical practice would be that the pilots in the bull pen waiting for a flying slot should be required to act as spotters while waiting their turn.

way to go jim that is a real good idea lets hope that it works,
godspeed,
dennis1943

Send them down to Florida, we're used to that here! ;>)

Ben in Boca Raton, FL

We have a rule in my club that if, in the opinion of 2 club instructors your flying skills are not up to par, you get a red sticker (student) on your club card and are not allowed to fly without an instructor on the line with you until such time as you've demonstrated proficiency required for solo flight. Crashing in the pits or into one of the fixed structures on the field would certianly get you a red sticker.
We're a club on a Marine Corps base and many of the members are retired military so there's a high percentage of older fliers. Fortunatly I've found that most won't fly beyond their capabilities and most will ask for help when they need it, but there are always the few.........

When I made 60, of course I had to retire as an Airline pilot, which is the only legislated age discrimination that I am now aware of. Actually I was ready to retire, after driving USAF and AL machines for some 41 years.
OTOH, I am NOT ready to retire from model aviation. Nearing 67, I will contest anyone on the ability to fly any RC within safe boundaries, now I did not say show or competition event flying, but within any normal routine, whether it be warbird racing, fun flys or whatever.
My input to people that want some kind of legislated ruling that effects ALL people, just because of a few, is very simple. I just label them as members of a generation of spoiled brats, those that always found milk in the refrigerator, never had to earn their keep / (wings) every day, and wants the government/whatever to take care of them by legislating against all that crowd their world, the one revolving around them, like liberal democrats!
One of these days you may very well be one of those legislated against. The tune changes at that point.

Sounds like age discrimination to me. What do you suggest is done with the 20-40 year old pilots who do the same thing? Just because someone hits a certain age doesn't mean you can suddenly come down on them for perceived ailments. To do so will only drive these folks from the hobby in embarrassment, and frustration. And, they will take their hobby $'s with them. I like the idea that if someone does something considered unsafe by 2 instructors, they are put back in the beginners program until they prove their abilities. That's fair and gives all parties involved a chance to improve themselves while staying safe. It is also an excellent oppertunity to MAYBE suggest slower flying models that are easy to control.

Just my .02

John

Amen Horrace....life is full of risks and chances. Lets not legislate it to the point that it's not worth living....and that's all I got to say about that.

Bull....
Sounds like a fact!!! R/C flying requires hand eye coordination and good reflexes!!!!

As we get older these skills deteriorate..

What I find interesting is how people who are supposedly so safety conscience over look this fact. I have seen people behind the wheel of cars and transmitters who don't belong there period.
nobody wants to embarrass them but what happens if we do nothing and they hurt or kill someone, wouldn't everyone in the particular club be to blame for this.. Let's face I'm sure everyone here "knows" someone who is a great guy BUT HAS NO business in the air and everyone is too afraid to embarrass him so instead everytime that person goes up everyone at the field collectively holds their breath till the flights is over...


As far as the 20-40 or beginner age range I think the idea of the red card for safety violations is a great Idea and should be in the AMA rules for god sake everything else is in there..

If you happen to fall into that age group don't be mad its just a fact of life...

I happen to agree with mandatory driver lic re-testing when a person reaches a certain. It only makes sense from a safety perspective

No argument from me there.

This was the question posted in the original email. No, I do not think it is a good idea to institute this type of idea.

Yes, they do, but to state an age limit is unfair and unjust. Especially for those who are excellent pilots at age 65 and beyond. What are you going to do with someone who's 62 and can't handle himself on the flight line? Look the other way just because he's too young for you to hold the rule book in his face? No, you address each individual and situation on it's own. That's the function of the club safety officer, co-ordinator, etc.


It is the clubs responsibility to do something in these situations. If that's what you have in mind, great. But remember what forum this is, AMA Discussions. That implies that you support the AMA creating this rule as well as developing a plan to deal with it. I do not feel it is the AMA's business to tell me, or anyone else, when I/they must take a proficiency examine when I've been flying for X # of years and never had an incident to cause concern. BTW, I have known several people who scare everyone under the shed when they fly. But none are over 50. Why should they be dealt with any differently just because they do not fit into the "old" age group?

No, it should not be in the AMA rules. It should be in club rules, if the club wants them in there.

1. I'm not in the age group in question. I'm 33.
2. No, it's not a fact of life, it's your personal opinion.

Why? Most states require a written retest of drivers every 4-8 years anyway. It would be far smarter to simply add a driving test to the program. You'd remove far more dangerous drivers from the road and age would never be an issue since everyone was subjected to the same requirements.

You act like you are going to take away someones license to fly a model plane if they fail this exam. The last time I checked, you don't need a license to fly a model airplane. What are you going to take away? How are you going to stop this person from flying? Kick them out of the club? If so, what does that have to do with the AMA? Is AMA going to revoke their insurance? Not likely, they need the $ to fund whatever frivolous museum expansion they have in mind. Any safety issues relating to an individuals ability to handle their model should be dealt with by the club. Period.

But I digress. This thread is about older flyers, not drivers. Let's stick to the subject at hand.

John

No its a fact your reflexes and eye hand eye coordination deteriorate with age. I checked with a friend who is a doctor.

BTW The way I'm not talking about a written test I was more concerned with a flying skill test..

No of this would be neccessary if people knew when to say when

I love doing this and would like nothing better then doing this up till my death. I only hope that when I reach the point where I'm no longer able to do this safely I'll have the common sense to say enough is enough.

As far as the issue of age discrimination goes I don't believe it should be an issue you either physically retain the skills required to participate or you move on to a different aspect of the hobby.

almost every club has some type of certification program for new comers is this also discrimination.

And if you're so hung up on the age 65 threshold start at 35 and re-cert in 5 year increments.

Point is this can become a dangerous hobby if certain guidelines aren't adhered to. Note being physically able to control YOUR model for whatever reason age, illness etc.. IS at hte top of my list of things not to do

I have 20/30 vision and will not fly if I forget my glasses. I think saftey should be everyone primary concern with worring about offending others feeling a distant second.


One last off topic item why is it generally cheaper to buy life insurance at 30 instead of 60??? Is this not also age discrimination or is it just a fact. Age in modeling is a factor and rather then complain about people telling you what you can or can't do maybe we need to accept this fact.

I'm not saying older pilots should not be allowed to fly..

Well, I asked my doctor and he disagreed with you. So, you're wrong.

Quote:

BTW The way I'm not talking about a written test I was more concerned with a flying skill test..

No one ever said anything about a written test except in the off topic area about driving licenses.

Quote:

No of this would be neccessary if people knew when to say when

So you want to step forward and let them know when you feel they have had enough? Wow, what criteria are you going to use?

Quote:

I love doing this and would like nothing better then doing this up till my death. I only hope that when I reach the point where I'm no longer able to do this safely I'll have the common sense to say enough is enough.

I hope you do too. And, I also hope you have the choice to make that decision on your own instead of someone else deciding for you. It's well intended things like this that get people mixed up in politics at the flying field. I promise there will be situations where one person has his flying privilege revoked while someone else, who's a close friend, does not even though he should be stopped.

Quote:

As far as the issue of age discrimination goes I don't believe it should be an issue you either physically retain the skills required to participate or you move on to a different aspect of the hobby.

Then let it be so. There is absolutely no need for an age classification to make this happen.

Quote:

almost every club has some type of certification program for new comers is this also discrimination.

No it is not. It's a one time program to verify the new member is capable flying safely. Also note that this is a club requirement, not an AMA requirement. This is a perfect example of where the club sets it's own guidelines without the AMA telling it what to do. Thank you for bring up this point. It only strengthens my argument even more.

Quote:

And if you're so hung up on the age 65 threshold start at 35 and re-cert in 5 year increments.

No, I have a problem with any age break point. If there's to be a re-cert program, it needs to apply to everyone regardless of their age.

Quote:

Point is this can become a dangerous hobby if certain guidelines aren't adhered to. Note being physically able to control YOUR model for whatever reason age, illness etc.. IS at hte top of my list of things not to do

Good, take it up with your club. NOT THE AMA!

Quote:

One last off topic item why is it generally cheaper to buy life insurance at 30 instead of 60???

Bottom line, because people over age 60 are more likely to file a claim.

Quote:

Is this not also age discrimination or is it just a fact. Age in modeling is a factor and rather then complain about people telling you what you can or can't do maybe we need to accept this fact.

No, it's a business decision. Age in modeling CAN be a factor. And because of that, it should be addressed on a case by case basis. Not a blanket rule for everyone.

Quote:

I'm not saying older pilots should not be allowed to fly..

Ahh, but what you support could lead to exactly that. As Horrace said, when you reach the age of regulation, your outlook will change.

Thank you!!!!!!!!

John

PS, someone pass the Ni-Starter. I dropped mine in the fuel ...

JWN Thank you

A very well reasoned and thoughtful response to another burgeoning "rule Nazi". The real irony here is these very same people who scream for more rules and laws without rational thought are in fact some of the most likely in the end to be 'bit in the rear' by their own emotional fervor.

John

Just wanted you to know that I remember what your original post read. What do you guy's think? Well asked question. It wasn't that long ago an elder modeler lost site of his own plane and killed himself with it.(Arizona I think) Who know's the whole story behind this tragic accident, seem'd the only thing not in his favor was his age. I have no answer, but , is it a concern? it is to me. Ask yourselves this. If an elder urologist hands shake uncontrollably, should he be allow'd to perform vasectomies, I guess on some of you, the answer would be yes, NOT!!!

Brian,

First of all thank you for touching on this much needed subject. However I will start will a little defense on the "elders" part. We have to remember that the reason that the majority of older modelers can not fly with the same proficiency as the rest of the average pilots today is that they were around in the "good oledays" when anyone who could take off and land a model airplane within a 2 mile circle was considered an expert. The thought of taking off, flying a predescribed course and landing at will is as foriegn to them as mars!

The idea of practising to get better is not even a concept for them. Mearly taking off and "surviving" is the goal. But this can be said about a growing segment of modelers today. You have to remember that about 30% of the "local" club guys are gambling in their own minds when they fly as to whether or not they will actually aver see their model in one piece again or not! And of these, a large majority are in the older age group.

I agree that one of these old timers can kill an innocent bystander as surely as a young guy with a fast turbine but our task is to educate everyone as we evolve as a group.

BTW,

JWN, by the length and breath of your responses you seem to have a rather deep involvement here. Are you by any chance considered to be (how can I put this nicely) within the aforementioned group? And if so, how can you possibly deny what has been said? Lets all face it, we know that as we get older, that we lose some ability. I mean come on, lets not act as though we are delerious about this issue. We need to be responsible and address this issue correctly. You make claim to age discrimination in one of your posts. . .are you INSANE? Age discrimination is charging more for a dinner at a resturaunt based upon ones age. Should you eat for less than a younger man who is working his butt of to feed his family?

As I see it, the core of this issue revolves around what is to be done with pilots that shouldn't be flying for safety reasons.

Age was brought into the issue because of the experience the thread starter had on a particular day. I too have seen "mature" pilots take to the air when they could barely see well enough to drive to the field in the first place. I have also seen "mature" pilots that are quite skilled. However, I have also seen young pilots that make me run for cover.

I'm 35 years old, but I know I don't have the reflexes I did when I was 16 years old. In general, our reflexes over time deteriorate. There are always exceptions, but in general I don't see how anyone can argue with this. Testing based on age may seem like discrimination, but IMO it really isn't. There are many age related thresholds in out society, 16 to drive, 18 to vote, 21 to drink, etc. There is nothing magical that happens at 16 such that one can drive a car. It is that we consider most under the age of 16 to not have enough responsibility and/or proper reflexes to drive a car. The same idea (but in reverse, we lose the reflexes) applies to when we age.

However, while a age related test may take care of some of the unsafe pilots, I do not see it as a good solution. I think a better solution would be to have pilot proficiency levels that apply to ALL pilots regardless of age. I know several clubs that do this. No pilot is ever "grounded" with these setups unless they deliberately fly unsafely, however, ones flying may be restricted. For example, Level 1 - must be on buddy box system. Level 2 - must have Level 3+ spotter. Level 3 - can fly solo under 1 cu-in. Level 4 - can fly solo over 1 cu in, etc. I give the above as just an example. If someone is deemed unsafe via whatever retesting method is in place for that club, then the member is bumped down a level. Now this may be a big blow to ones ego, but which is more important? Your ego or your fellow pilots life?

Should the AMA consider legislating something like this? That depends. It would definitely increase the safety image of the AMA, its charted clubs and members. It might even lower insurance costs. There is a precedent for proficiency training with the turbine waiver system. Realistically, voluntary participation of charted clubs to enact a pilot proficiency program is probably a more viable option.

By having the AMA legislating this it makes the guidelines and rules uniform. If you leave it up to individual clubs you have no standard by which to measure any rating system and the rating itself becomes meaningless

BTW JRN

Why is it military pilots are continually subjected to physicals which can lead to either temporary or permanent grounding (i.e. loss of flight privileges) if they fail to pass them?



JohnBuckner

Rational thought you have got to be joking!!!
This the funniest yet dumbest statement I've seen to date on RCU. The AMA and most clubs have rules covering almost every aspect of this hobby. Yet a rule dealing with pilot proficiency whether it be based on age or skill level is considered irrational.

Age becomes a factor in this hobby sooner or later that is a fact not an opinion. To ignore that is just plain dangerous

If you knowingly continue to fly after losing the physical ability to do it safely (At any age) and God forbid you injure someone you should be held criminally responsible.

If this statement makes me a "Rule Nazi" then so be it!! I'd rather be a rule nazi then live with the fact that I'd injured or killed someones kid.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Crashem

should be in the AMA rules for god sake everything else is in there..




Could it be even you have a problem with some rule?

John

Please re-read my posts. I have already answered this question and stated my age. My involvement here is to stand up for those whom some of you would rather restrict their flying under the guise of personal safety than to help them where needed and increase safety at the same time. I'm also adamantly against big brother rule which is exactly what an AMA rule concerning age would be. If you want a rule at your club, then take it up with your club. Do not force your rules upon myself, or my friends, through the AMA.

I'm not denying anything. Show me one statement I made that denys anything!

As I've stated numerous times but for whatever reason you and several others fail to pick up on, TAKE IT UP WITH YOUR CLUB! NOT THE AMA

Oh boy .....

As are any rules which only apply to those of a certain age group. If you are going to make a rule, it needs to apply to everyone equally.

You can't help but drift off topic can you?

Eat what you can afford to pay for.

John

John,

No organization will have 100% agreement concerning the rules that it establishes. That seems to just be human nature..

When I get fed up with the rules I simply fly in my backyard and drop out of the club been following this pattern for 18 years now and it works for me.

As far as using age as the only criteria I don't think that is a good idea. But neither is ignoring the fact that age can play a role in determining one's capability to safely enjoy this hobby.

How is it that the issue of safety seems to take a back seat when someone brings age into the equation? Think I'm wrong here is a good example



If a beginner shows up with his AMA card and dues all paid. How many clubs would restrict him from flying alone? Even if he currently flys REAL airplanes defending are way of life and I would still thank him very much! I just wouldn't want him flying alone around me!!!

Does anyone think this is unfair to the newcommer?
I don't but hey thats my opinion

Hi,
I've been reading this thread with some amusement, knowing that at some point this issue would come up.
First, who's going to set up the flight check and administer it? Do you want a written and a practical? Who's going to give the test and under what authority? What if I only want to fly old timers, do I have to pass the same test as the guy flying 3D? If not, then AMA will have to setup "categories" of models that the modeler is "authorized" to fly. Who's going to administer that?
I'm not sure what you want AMA to do to anyone who "fails" a flight check. Kick the member out of AMA? Send notices to clubs with a list of "non approved" members? Re-train the member and if he "busts" his check flight again ban him for life?
Oh yes, as others have alluded to in previous posts, physical condition is important. I guess AMA should mandate physicals every two years, except turbine fliers who will need one every 6 months, and for all members not passing the physical or have a limiting physical condition they will be banned outright. Of course AMA will have to maintain this medical data base adhering to all the regulations regarding confidentiality of medical records.
Only problem is AMA has no legislative power to do any of this. Nor, I'm sure, WANT to do this. The paperwork and record keeping costs would be enormous (do I hear dues hike?) If AMA tried to "enforce" age related rules, they better have a good lawyer on hand that specializes in age discrimination law suits. And before the comment of "the FAA makes airline pilots retire at 60" comes up, remember, there is no age limit for General aviation. All you have to do is pass your physical and have BFR every two years. Steve Whitman was flying into his 90's, Chuck Yeager was flying F-15's and is flying P-51's well into his 70's.
In closing, it's an interesting subject for discussion but one that I'm sure is not going to happen. AMA is too smart to get involved in any of this. One other reason not to do it is that the FAA, looking over AMA's shoulder will say"Hey, that's what we do, maybe we should take over".
Think about the ramifications of THAT!
Regards,
Jon

littlecrankshaf

By beginner I meant someone who has never flown before. I should have been more precise.

As far as providing help... Sure I would.... but don't think I'd be hanging around if they were admant about trying it alone..

As far as understanding what JRN said I DO I simply disagree with his premise that the local club is better qualified then the AMA.

3 guesses and the first 2 dont count