EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

I'll ask. I'm both thick skinned modestly intelligent.
I used to read some of Sandy Frank's weirdness on usenet, and all I could think was that I was very dissapointed that an AMA official spent so much time dorking around talking to dummies. Otherwise, I have no opinion about him.
Tell me, what's the deal with sandy frank?

Gordo-ProBro

You know guys, I just can't help but wonder why we haven't heard from sledge again. Are you out there? We're all up in arms over your problem, give us more info!

Gordon

bigdog46

he is so busy it ant funny but I will let hem know tomorrow.
I thank you for being on are side.I assure you that he will reply.
like I said bigdog and sledge thank you guys for being on are side.

Sledge-RCU

Sledge is here. Things seem to slow down. We've been waiting to hear about the IMAA meeting in Florida. Believe Sandy Frank was there and we wanted to hear if he was trying to get us kicked out of IMAA also. The AMA meeting is this weekend so we expect to hear next week.
We foolishly assumed that an "agreement" would only involve our written safety procedures regarding safe separation between full scale and model aircraft. This procedure, which was already in effect, was emailed to AMA on December 9, the same day they first contacted us.
The 'agreement' has nothing to do with safety. It is designed only to allow our neighbor to take Our property for his private airport. He only has 1400 ft which includes another neighbor's land he cleared without their permission. This neighbor is suing him and we are in the process of filing a law suit also for criminal tresspass and taking of our property. Without our and another neighbor's property he doesn't have enough runway to land anything but a Piper Cub safely. Our attorney has written to AMA; we'll see if it has any effect. Why the AMA is listening to this man is a mystery to me.
LOVED THE IDEA OF A FLY-IN with 100 fliers! Thinking about the first or second weekend of July. It will be no landing fee, only donations for food.
Sledge
Will post more as we learn more.

Gordo-ProBro

Ah, now that's more like it! Let us know how we can help. And maybee look elsewhere for insurance, AMA can probably find a reason to pull your ticket if you tick them off anyway!

Hey, do they ever read this stuff? Why don't they ever answer these things for all of us to see?

Gordon

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Because there is so much BALONEY here on the web about AMA that it is a waste of time for them to debate here with all the misinformed suckers who beleive all the junk they read on the web.
I get a feeling that we are not really getting the full story on THIS situation, either. I know nothing about the situation, nor do I feel like calling Errol Severe to get his side, but this does not seem like we are getting the whole story, does it?

KenLambert

My Feedback: (107)

sure you are getting the full story.I know what has been going on and have been to hammer's feild NICE PLACE,I have seen the setup there,the Hammers are very nice .so I know they are giving you the TRUE story.

In my opinion from personal experince if you are not a big metro area club with LOTS of members the DVP doesn't seem to be interested in going out of his way to help with problems and could care less if the SMALL clubs go out or not,my opinion.

All you need to do is go to hammer feild and fly there for the weekend and see for yourself .


Kenneth Lambert

(and yes this is my real name)

Gordo-ProBro

hey sledge,

Allow me to also renew the request for a scanned copy of the "agreement". And perhaps a little drawing of the facility and conflict area. I'd hate to write or call AMA and find out I'm not fully informed!

Gordon

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Kenneth,
Your observation about non-metropolitan clubs has been heard in many rural areas of this District and is why the D8 DVP mostly comes from the DFW area. In fact there is some history about that subject that will raise your blood pressure. It is probably the reason we (AMA) now have a codified nomination process, and it appears to still being clobbered. Or so Johnny Clemens told me and several others in '86.

I am sure that everyone is telling what they think is the truth (from their point of view). I suspect that someone stepped outside the normal channels in the negotiation process. That is probably part of the problem and the other part is the poor communications ability of many. An immediate example is the repeated request for scans and drawings seen here and not responded to. I am also sure that AMA HQ is looking at taking action properly based on bad communications. It really is terrible when EVERYONE involved in a questionable situation is weak at communicating, as frequently Dr. Frank is.

rsallen13

My Feedback: (1)

And others who have their head in the sand and label any descent or discussion as junk, mis-information, baloney, and pure speculation.

The reality is that their are two sides to every story and a forum such as this is only one of several means of discussion. To label such discussion as you have done above demeans the process and those who would support you.

I personally may not agree with alot of the anti-AMA rhetoric that is spewed from time to time, but a lot of us believe that the AMA needs to change and use this forum to discuss ways to do so. So for better or worse if you do not like the discussion in this forum you have the right and the privilege not to participate.



As for the issue in the original topic I think that there is a lot of mis-communication between the club, the AMA, and the land owner. If this is not an FAA approved landing strip and you are on your land, and HE does not have approved over flight agreements with you then stand your ground. Find someone in you group to send a letter to the AMA DVP in your area, CC all of the Members of the EC, and the AMA Flying Site Assistance group, detailing everything ad nauseam sticking only to the facts and finish the letter by stating your clubs official position (ie willing to work with the neighbor but not willing to sign away development rights) and see where it goes.

If it does not go the way you think it should and you feel you have a strong case I'm sure you can find a lawyer who will represent you on contingency. Your neighbor does not have the right to "de-value" your property and if he does the courts will sometimes require them to compensate you or cease his activity. If you win the case the neighbor can be require by the courts to pay all of your legal fees.

If you state your case well enough to Wes Du Cou (and/or Joe Beshar) of the Flying Site Assistance group within AMA you might even get some help from them. Though some my not like all that AMA is you can still use the system as it exists to "possibly" get some assistance in this matter.

Good Luck and if you have a fly in I'm sure that the RCU members in you area near and far will come.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Good post, Mr. Allen. Lest you misinterpret...I do not see all dialogue on the net as being a waste of time at all...somebody just asked the question "why don't AMA officials answer these posts", and to that, my answer is above, and I stick to it, 100%.

And I still feel that we are not getting the full story here. Errol Severe has an Aviation Museum, and has bought a whole bunch of model airplanes from me, and does not seem to be anti-models at all. I do not KNOW what is going on here, but I suspect it is not as cut and dry as painted above, that's all.
I don't know about city versus country, that's perhaps a topic best left for another thread...
JR is probably right 100% about how this situation came about, I don't really know.
Mr. Allen is correct...there are people who can help, who know what they are talking about. Talk to Joe Beshar, he's one of the greats.

Gordo-ProBro

I think I lost my last post so let me try again.

Easytiger, be a pal and help us out here. First, we don't even know if this Errol Severe fellow is the guy, and what his story is. Since we all want to keep the peace and have a happy model world, why don't you give him a friendly call and get the scoop? Hey, we might even be able to cut out the Muncie bunch and solve this here on RCU!

Better yet, pass on the URL for this string to Errol and ask him to bring us up to date. I'm all for open debate, it's the American way!

I'm leaning heavily towards Sledge here, I'm a big believer in first come, first to use the airspace. And I'm really sick of the world we live in allowing poeple to screw with other guys property, wether in the name of "my planes cary poeple" or the great kangaroo rat, or a migrating goose. (sorry, off the subject)

Gordon

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

I'd be pretty sure that there are not two different Errol Severes opening up two museums, it's PROBABLY the same guy!
I don't know that I would have any influence with the guy, but he never seemed a very bad sort at all.
BUT...I do not want to call, as I really do not know the other guys involved in the situation, what has been said or agreed upon before, and I don't know if I could be opening up my mouth and making the situation WORSE.
I don't think him seeing this thread would probably help things, either!
I really do not know the situation, and would really be afraid of spouting off without knowing what I was talking about. In the end, it would be the guys with the field who would be suffering, not me.
So...I encourage the members of this club to reach out to Joe Beshar or Wes De Cou, both of whom are appointed to actually deal with Flying Site Coordination(and Sandy Frank is NOT), and who have the experience, tools, and diplomacy to perhaps resolve the situation. The resources are there if you want to use them. Joe Beshar, who started the FSC position, is the salt of the earth, a great guy, always willing to help, and he has a knack for getting things done with clubs and local goverments AND the AMA. Do it right, talk to the right people.
I am not "wussing out", I just would not want to go off half cocked and start making phone calls, stepping into the middle of a pre-existing situation, not really knowing any of the background.

Gordo-ProBro

OK, easytiger, whatever. The whole point was to get his side, not shove ours in his face, you must not be as diplomatic on the phone as you are here. But as you say, you're not "wussing out"!

Gordon

Gordo-ProBro

Hey, anyone know a web address for this "Air Cadets Museum" ? I'd like to know more about it.

Gordon

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Gordon...I restate the above. There is already a problem, and you/I/we really do not know what has already transpired. How would you like it if it was YOUR club and some perfect stranger from the internet called up and got themselves into the mix? If the principles of the club in question ask me to, fine. Otherwise, NO.


Here is the last newsletter I got from him:
Guys,
Here is the latest news from YOUR museum: The reunion came off quite well on Oct. 1-3. The army supported us with two helicopters, the air force with a C-130 fly-by and a flight of 4 F-16's. We didn't have very many of you guys here, around 80 total with wives, that's a real shame, you missed out on a great time. I hope you will ALL be here next year. We will be holding it on October 11 & 12, 2003 right here at your home base in Eureka Springs. We haven't come up with the details of this event as we must plan it out completely so we can come up with a total cost. I know that some of you are planning to have your class reunion in conjunction with the all-cadet one here and I would encourage ALL of you to do the same. I have updated the pictures on the site under the "Silver Wings Field Pictures Update" link.
I am including two letters from two of our guys who were at this event so you will get a better idea of what went on. Please forward this to the guys in your address book and if you have friends who are not on the net please print this out and send it to them by snail mail. It is just way to expensive to use the US mail service? to contact and inform our troops. Thanks for your help.
Errol

10/11/02


EUREKA! (I have found it)

A Huey, a Black Hawk, A C130 slow and low pass and a flight of four F-16's
from Tulsa ANG making a fly by low enough to ruffle the flag. Add to this
the camaraderie of numerous clear eyed, tall and straight, fighting trim
(you gotta look past the camouflage) fly boys hangar flying and it just
doesn't get any better than this. All this, plus the thrill of standing in
the center of history being created, of actually being a participant in the
construction of a world class memorial offering tribute to Aviation Cadets
and you have to feel "Eureka".

Two years ago, following the AVCAD Reunion in Branson, Laurie and I drove to
Eureka, Arkansas to get the lay of the land and locate the site of "our"
future memorial. We went unerringly to the site, just a mile shy of Onyx
Cave, located the Severe mailbox, and proceeded to shoot a roll of film of
the "raw" site. Unbeknownst at the time, I was getting fantastic shots of
the wrong side of the road. Darn!

This trip as we rounded the final curve (more curves than straight ways in
this county) there in all its majesty was the largest flag I have seen,
waving proudly in the seemingly constant wind. At the very instant we
observed our standard, a quick glance confirmed we were just off the end of
the runway. Holy Smoke! Two years ago this site was rolling hills, scrub
brush, junk cars, old farm machinery and fencerow sumac. What a
transformation.

I don't know whom, if anyone, is helping Errol Severe with the grunt work;
but the amount of work accomplished in 20 months is nothing less than
amazing. All the trash, junk, brush and fence has been removed. The
rolling terrain has been bulldozed, stones removed and seeded. An old beat
up tanker pulled by a farm tractor serves as an irrigator and, if you look
close, sprouts are visibly reaching for the sky on our soon to be 1900' sod
strip. A 70' brushed aluminum mast supports a huge flag lit by three
halogen lamps evenly spaced in a circular, budding garden surrounding the
mast.

A couple hundred yards away is our first structure serving as the beginning
of the display area for AVCAD momentos. Posters, photographs, uniforms, a
Link Trainer and other memorabilia are guaranteed to transport any cadet
back in time to when he was a Bluebird (excuse me) or a Redbird. Eureka!
What a trip.

The sad part is that only about 800 cadets are providing the funding for this
endeavor. A few hundred out of some 32,000 surviving cadets.
That's why the progress to date is amazing rather than miraculous. We
desperately need to reach you other 31,200 cadets. We need to show you
"Your Memorial". We need to show you the master plan for "Silver Wings
Field". We need to see your shoulders squared, your chins tucked and that
gut sucked in when you realize this awesome tribute is being constructed for
you, in your honor. Because when this happens many of you will call, e-mail
or write inquiring how you can help.

Then, and only then, will the construction of this tribute, this memorial to
cadets trained between 1917 and 1968 be moved from cruise to "balls to the
wall". We have many aircraft to transport, hangars to construct, a cadet club to construct, etc.

This is your memorial. Write, call or e-mail the Aviation Cadet Museum in
Eureka Springs, Arkansas. Let us show you what you have here. I guarantee
you that you'll be impressed.

Greg Smith
Class 59-08N--


I just returned from the Cadet reunion in Eureka Springs AR. Oct 1,2,3, 2002. It was great. Although the turn out was small, about 80 to 90, the program was great and showed a tremendous amount of work by Errol Severe. The runway is in and usable, all 1900 feet, and the flag pole with its tremendous flag was beautiful. The flag is huge and was donated by a former cadet and his wife. The cost about $8500. The huge halogen lights and the electrical run from the flag to the operations building was also donated by a former cadet and his wife at a cost of about $5000.

Registration was at the temporary flight ops building that also houses the museum. Although the museum is small it is done very professionally. The second day was continued registration and then a early evening BBQ at the ops building that consisted of Brisket, chicken beans salads and home made cobblers and pies. After dinner there was a short business meeting followed by a USO type of entertainment show. The program was hosted by Beth Severe sing numerous songs, some that she recorded and wrote. All and all it was a fun evening. The museum owns several sets of bleachers and a reviewing stand, PA system and of course ground to air radios that directed the air show the next day.

The third day at 1100 hours two army helicopters made fly byes and land at the field. A modern Hughie and a Black Hawk. The helicopters were put on display for everyone to inspect up close and personal. At 1230 hours a Naval Junior ROTC drill team from a local High school put on a great show of precession marching. At 1330 hours a C-130 made several low level fly byes and at 1530 four F-16s made two formation fly byes including a 100 foot over the flag pole pass as they exited for home in Tulsa. Compliments of the Tulsa Air National guard.

The museum has several aircraft that have been donated. The catch is we have to transport them to Silver Wings Field. Among the aircraft are a F-105 and a F-100 and the cost to transport is about $32,000. We need donations. There are approximately 32,000 cadets in the computer data base, although I am sure that number gets smaller every day since the cadet program dates to 1917. If every cadet would pledge a few dollars each month or a one time donation of $100 or more dollars this museum will fly. .
Errol is a builder and will see to it that construction progresses as fast as funds will allow. This is a truly dedicated MAN.

Fellow Cadets now is the time to step up and be counted. Of course you don't have to be a cadet to donate to the Museum, and remember all donations are tax deductible. If you are a cadet and can remember what the Cadet Program did for you during and after your active duty time, then you can also remember that the program not only provide our Country with the men who flew the planes that helped win the wars, but then afterwards provided a lot of us with a vocation that we continued in civilian life. A career I might add that was financially rewarding.

Check out the link to the Cadet Museum and then pledge some money to help make this project continue to grow. Then watch with pride as your Aviation Cadet Museum becomes a completed reality.

Thanks for your time and donation Dick Rogers Class 60-B/59-08N

I remain, one of the Last of a Breed,
Errol D. Severe, Pres. ACM

Aviation Cadet Museum, Inc.
542 CR 2073
Eureka Springs AR 72632
479-253-5008
http://www.aviationcadet.com


--
I remain, one of the Last of a Breed,
Errol D. Severe, Pres. ACM

Aviation Cadet Museum, Inc.
542 CR 2073
Eureka Springs AR 72632
479-253-5008
http://www.aviationcadet.com

rsallen13

My Feedback: (1)

So Sledge do you have a fullscale field or a RC field or is yours both?

Who is trying to build the fulscale field?

Can anyone clarify this. After EASYTIGERS post I don't know who is who anymore.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Errol Severe has the full scale Silver Wings Field. From what I can gather, sledge is a member of a model airplane club on an adjoining property.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Easytiger,
Thank your for clearing up a few things. I think there is a solution that works for everyone.

Suppose the club guy gave his 300 acres to the museum guy with the written agreement that it would be purchased at double market value if model airplane flying was ever stopped for other than a show or two each year. It payment for this, the club would use the runway and have a small area, including a pavilion and pit area off one end of the existing runway.

I think this would be an everyone wins way to do it.

Lemme see. I think the museum is probably 501 c(3) so donations to it are tax deductible. I don't know of any model clubs with that status or the ability to accept tax deductible donations. If you work at it a little, you can get the donations of a nature that help you and the museum making everyone a winner.

The club offers on property presence a lot which helps with security. That is a valuable asset for the ACM to have.

Sledge, please think about it because that approach is a lot easier to sell than legal action and is better for aviation as a whole.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

While well-intentioned, I don't think anybody should be giving away 300 acres of land just because a neighbor is complaining about something...
Besides, Errol obviously does not have the money to buy the property, at double or even half the market rate...
Honestly...I STILL feel like we really have no idea of what is REALLY going on in this situation. Obviously, we are getting less than half of the story here.

I do agree with you 100% in that there is probably a very simple solution to the situation, but I would hesitate to offer one without knowing more about the situation.
I maintain again that Errol is not anti-modelling...obviously, you can see all the models hanging from his ceiling...so I don't know what really transpired between the parties to cause this rift.

bigdog46

I don't think anybody has got the real picture yet. Sledge is the owner of this property it is a full scale airport,and model field. This guy Severe has got to be out of his mind.He puts in a so call airport with a 1400 ft runway which has only had 1 or 2 planes land there in the last 8 mo. or so. The approach comes right over a road where school buses drive by full of school kids,and I have been there flying and seen how low they must fly to make runway. I ask any of you who own 300 acres if you would sign a agreement to move your runway and agree to never develop his property if so you need to see a mental doctor quick. JD

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

So...sledge ALSO has a full scale airport? Adjoining the Silver Wings one?

KenLambert

My Feedback: (107)

I don't beleive anything is adjoining here it is seperated by a county paved road that runs between them

Sledge-RCU

Response to Ron Allen-
Silver Wings has the full scale field... What Easytiger was saying was that there was a heck of a lot more open space across the highway where Sledge flies models. While Silver Wings claims 1800-1900 feet, Sledge could easily have 2800'.
Actually, 2 years ago, Mr Severe put an article in the Little Rock newspaper showing his runway on Sledge's property...any wonder why Easytiger was confused when he came out!
The letters talking about Silver Wings reunion in October...
We were not in town at the time, but the neighbors say NO
full scale landed on his little runway...and yes, the military planes DID "ruffle the flag." I presume that might be part of the reason for the multitude of lawsuits being filed against Severe and his Board of Directors. That, plus the fact that he clear cut part of another neighbor's property in an effort to extend his runway.
Their 6 acre tract had been an old homestead and was their retirement dream, before Severe bulldozed about 80' of their property for His dream.
We find Severe's project hard to understand; WW II aviation is memorialized in so many locations. Walnut Ridge, Arkansas has an 11,000 sq ft aviation cadet museum and three military built 5,001', safe runways built for aviation cadet training in WWII that would accomodate Real planes, not just little birddog type planes. Fayetteville Airport has a wonderful museum on the premises as well as Real runways. Seems like all Real museums are LOGICALLY based on real airports, not pretend 1800' rock and sod runways that endanger the neighborhood. Why would anyone support Severe's endeavor when there are Real ones that can use help.
Sledge

bigdog46

thank you ken.I was trying to tell hem that.