mscic-RCU

My Feedback: (6)

to me the solution is simple, explain to the first SO the need to appoint a second SO and if he doesn't like it he can resign.

Taildrager-inactive

My Feedback: (11)

Usually the guys with the bigest planes are the ones that break the rules the most. You see them all the time at your field, hovering over the runway, taking off then showing off with a snap roll that is just a tad from being out of controll. Safety officers should be some old geezer that comes to the field every day, and is content to fly his 20 year old bird in circles.

DelRay

What makes you think that the "hot rods" would pay any attention to "an old geezer" that can only fly in circles?

rcjake

If the "old geezer" is the club safety coordinator/officer, the "hot rods" had better listen...[sm=49_49.gif]

Jerry
FEAR CD
Knight Flyers Electric RC Club's Safety Coordinator

beepee

Being the SO is about being authoritative, knowing the field rules, and recognizing when a pilot is causing a safety hazard. All the rest is fluff. If Johnny Hotshot is not going to listen to authority, it won't make much difference what background that authority has. Hopefully, then, the Club has a way of dealing with these exceptions.

Bedford

mscic-RCU

My Feedback: (6)

the danger of dealing with hotshot johnny is if you do discipline him, what will he do to get eve. i have heard stories of guys sitting out of site in range and shooting down flyers after the club has disciplined them for rules violations. most clubs and so's are afraid of retaliation and hesitate to do anything to hotshot johnny's.

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

The use of peer pressure as a group and backing up the safety officer
(when he's right) will usually convice a good pilot of his bad ways,
pilot edicate is not something that is taught very well.

I don't like guys hovering over the runway either as it screws up
the 4 or 5 other guys in the rest of the airtraffic pattern for the one guy that wants to hover.

Most clubs have helis and airplanes seperated for that reason.
If the helis can't hover over the runway with a bunch of guys flying around why should
the guy wanting to hover the airplane with a bunch of guys flying around be given spiecal pass.

It's possible to fly helis in the same pattern as airplanes ,
but the heli pilot must maintain foward flight, unless taking off or landing, and call it out like any other aircraft.
Hovering edicate by both the heli pilot and airplane pilot are soley in thier hands.
Bad pilot edicate can create problems regardless of what it is your flying. Some aircraft don't mix well.

If you have people in your club willing to shoot others down,
you have a bigger problem than your club can manage. You can't legislate morality and ethics.
I don't know what the solution is there, 2.4 gig systems may help $$$$, a call to the police may also help.
Theres a big difference between "enforcing the rules" and discriminating just because
you don't like the guy because he's a "hot shot".

The "rest of the members" may be getting"entertained" by this "hot shot"
that's not really breaking the rules..but you have a hair up your butt for him because....
hes a "hotshot".

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

One of the biggest problems if not the biggest IMO is the perceived rules vs. actual rules. Many arguments are based in ignorance of what is the “rule”.

I have seen those that were in a position of some regard within a club cite rules that do not exist, were misinterpreted or has been removed from the SC. Just recently a so-called authority cited the infamous rule #9 to bolster his contention of unsafe flying of another. It is imperative if you are going to try to enforce the rule you should know what the hell it is.

I have personally witnessed countless erroneous renditions of the “rules” by those that profess to be knowledgeable and have seen first hand the damage such ignorance can cause. A real shame!

Gremlin Castle

My Feedback: (14)

I have heard stories about alien abductions and people making fortunes selling stuff to their friends too. Almost all of it is hearsay and without objective evidence when proof of the actual event is required.
Nobody including myself likes to be corrected for making a mistake. I do know that some people are much better than others when it comes to pointing out safety violations. However, If the corrections are not done at a club level the door is open to the possibility of an outsider stepping in and making a real mess out of things.
Most of us do not like confrontation and many will whisper and make critical statements to their friends rather than politely point out the infraction to the violator. That approach is the same as doing nothing at all about the problem.

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

Being tactfull and respectfull goes along way in getting
anybody or a pilot to follow a rule or Guideline.

There are always going to be the complainers in the crowd,
that just complain for the sake of complaining.

If they can't answer the question's like:

Tell me who is being endangered and why?

What is happening thats making you "feel" uncomfortable?

And the response is...... Billy jo hotshot out there thinks that hes king of the field, cock of the walk, ya da, ya da

Its probably a personal issue , with one guy....... just wanting to pick on the other.

Vs:......Well hes crossing the dead line........ flying over the pits,
and other pilots are yelling HEY, YO, take it out a little....peer pressure helps.
Maintaining high flying standards helps too, get's embarrassing when your missing the runway ..all the time.

Being silent about it helps no one.

Doc Austin

Man, you've got that right.

I'm learning the position while on the job and there's a lot more to it than I was expecting, especially when things get a little rough. Also, I never expected politics to play a part in it either, but it does.

This is a good thread and I appreciate everyone's imput because I need a little guidance. I don't want to get into my club's specifics, but I am having a bit of a struggle (much of which is from my inexperience in the position), so this thread has been a big help for me. I almost wish we had a private forum for safety officers where we could discuss issues in confidentiality.

Or maybe we need a S.O. support group..................

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

You can discuss the issue without dragging any names in.....
Clubs, people, etc..

But be warned they may "see themselves" in the post and react like children.

BUTCHIEBOY

Hey John, are you seeing yourself in the post "Should RCU posting be anonymous? "

Doc Austin

I'de love to discuss safety and how to better do the job, but it has to be generic. Perhaps a private forum for safety Co-ordinators would be a good idea. It would be nice to have a place where I could rant about it and vent a little![8D]

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

There are alot of people that read these and never chime in,
but they do get some education, if you Hide it .....no one will get educated.

having a forum listing just on RC SAFETY would not be a bad thing ethier.....RCU heads up!!! you have a request!!!

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

RCU will be more than happy to consider a forum on this subject, but you'll need to show that there is enough interest in this subject to justify a new forum for it. Empty or dead forums are a killer for websites and we don't want a forum out there with little to no traffic in it. I agree that it might be a good subject, but I don't think it's good enough to justify it's own forum. IMHO I don't think there will be much traffic in it.

Ken

Doc Austin

I'de sure like to see it.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

The problem with a forum as you desire is the same as the problem here on the AMA forum. Individual’s subjectivity is greater than the distance that reasoning can span. One participant would invariable contend that flying low and inverted as your avatar depicts renders you less than safety conscience while others would perceive you as a field Nazi...Same song, different verse.

Doc Austin

On a SO forum, everyone would have the same objective.........everyone's saftey. I think that would help keep a lot of minds from being closed. Even on a totally public forum I believe the useful dialogue would outweigh any disagreement (like, it's a forum) or outright trolling.

The funny part about that is if I were doing it with a modern plane it would be called "3D," and everyone would think it is cool.

Even funnier still is that when that picture was taken (1980) I was at odds with the safety comittee. They didn't like anything, and would goosestep up and down the pits wearing their little safety comittee badges just looking for an excuse to excercise their authority. They were definately the third riech of safety...........and now I'm one of them. [X(] Maybe even funnier still is that the guy I was always getting into trouble with is the safety officer in his club. We figure one day we will have had enough BS and we will ground the whole damm county.

DelRay

One thing for sure, it is a very important topic to discuss, one that should be of interest to all that are in this wonderful sport. I'm sure there would be a wide range of opinions as to what is safe and what is unsafe.For example, your avatar to me shows what might look to someone that's not capable of performing that as dangerous or unsafe, to me, it looks like you might have total control, and that would be good. No, I'm not implying I can do what your avatar is showing either.

beepee

Ken,

I agree. This thread will keep going for those interested.

Bedford

Doc Austin

If one isn't competent and tries something like that, it can definately be very dangerous.

We have a rigid program for new pilots. If they can perform the required tasks, they are competent enough to get checked off. To me, anyone who can get up and down without any drama is not dangerous. This includes safe pit practises, which is where people seem to be most likely to get hurt.

Pesonally I don't care what people do as long as there is no danger that they will go out of bounds or past the zero line and they have clean pit and taxi work. I tell them as long as they crash out on the field I will leave them alone. I don't care how many planes they tear up as long as they do it where no one can get hurt. Hit the trees or bury the plane in the swamp. I don't care............just don't crash into the houses, pits, or parking lot...don't even come close.

If anything, the most dangerous guys are the experienced pilots who become complacent, careless and sloppy. Of course, once people become proficient, they don't want to hear about it. They seem to feel like you are treating them like children, so you have to be careful how you approach them.

The new guys are like a sponge, and they listen to everything I say and soak it up. The best bet I have for a safe club in the future is to make them safety concious now. It's too late to indoctrinate the jouneymen because, like I say, they don't want to hear it.

Dangerous is subjective anyway, which is why it's important a safety director has good judgement and doesn't let personal feelings get in the way. I may not be the right guy for the job now, but it looks like I am going to have to grow into it. No one else wants to do it.

It would certainly be a bad time to be out of control. While that photo might look a little dangerous, it wasn't. The only people there were myself and my cameraman (who was using a telephoto from behind a car, 100 feet or so back). I flew the thing in like that a dozen times until we got the perfect shot. I would never do something like that with people on the flightline. If I hit myself, I asked for it, but even at that, I was probably always at least 25 feet away from the plane.

And, I was a little wild in those days.

You probably could do at least the well with a little practise. Like I said earlier, if I did something like that today it would be called 3D, and everyone would be talking about how cool it is.

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

The other factor we missed was :

Airplanes were alot harder to fly back in the good old days, VS
todays computer generated, straight as an arrow ARF kits,
even flying the Godlike warbird's has gotten a little easier.

this is true as well :

" The new guys are like a sponge, and they listen to everything I say and soak it up."

We can only hope they are being taught the right way.

I have seen some trainers with some bad habits and attitudes as well.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Cool! One of the clubs I belong to has a safety coordinator that is a very accomplished flier. He flies very, very aggressively, to say the very least and is usually breathtaking to witness but yet sets an example by keeping within the rules. Many people enjoy the "air show" he puts on while others hide behind their mommy’s dress...People will always be that way.

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

I agree with that, and would extend the thought to say that what is or isn't safe is circumstantial as well. What is okay when you're out over the "south 40" certainly may not be safe down the centerline of the runway, and definitely isn't safe straight overhead. What you might do at the field by yourself might be the last thing you should try at a crowded fly-in.

I have two trains of thought on safety at the field. Personal safety, which means that what you do will ONLY affect you, and group safety, which means whatever you do WILL have an impact (pun intended) on anybody or everybody else out there. An example of personal safety might be poor start up practices like reaching over your spinning prop to unplug your glow starter. Group safety issues might be as simple as taxiing through the pits with people standing around to close-in aerobatics where your energy is directed toward the crowd.

For what you do in the air, I use the military's model at airshows; a minimum distance between crowd and performance, no overhead flight patterns, and the energy of the aircraft is directed away from the crowd. If you want to go down the runway beyond the crowd, or out over the flight area and do stuff likely to park your plane below runway level, have at it, it's your money. I would take exception to a maneuver that pointed the plane back toward the crowd at any distance, though. A lot of this is covered by AMA guidelines, so guesswork is eliminated.

You don't have to be a "nazi" about safety, or try to micromanage somebody's flight activities. If you think it's unsafe, say something to the perp then, and bring it before the club at meeting time, and let the group voice be heard. After all, many safety issues can be forestalled by a set of posted rules that everyone is supposed to follow as a condition of their membership. If you're doing something that the rules say you can't, then no argument. If it's something not covered, then group discussion and majority rule should take care of it, rather than any one person's possibly biased opinion.