Stick,

Just consider that not too long ago if someone wanted a model airplane they would have to invent it first. Your grandpa probably didn't do R/C as a kid...heck maybe even you didn't...now kids can… things constantly change. Nothing at all wrong with that. The problem is when one gets old and refuses to accept change or cites the changes as being a deficit in our youth.

The hobby is in transition to a more sport like activity such as 4wheeling is. Buy your gear and get busy…a new model of 4wheeler will come along and make the earlier versions obsolete…on and on and on… I am looking forward to a day when aero modeling replaces the spectacles such as football or NASCAR with models being flown at every park while cities are building flying fields instead of more soccer fields…oops got carried away again.

Seriously, Model aviation is a safe, fun, and educational activity that we should promote just as it is. I have never understood the overwhelming need of most modelers to portray this hobby in a way that alienates the very goal we attempt to accomplish. When you hear an older modeler give accounts of building/flying their models they often have a way of making anyone that will listen believe that the work is a very time consuming, aggravating and a wealth of knowledge is needed. Then after the building speech is concluded the dangerous speech starts. Then the need to conform speech....Sounds likes fun.

If we would just say “I had a great time building this plane and it sure flies good too...would you like to go to the park and see it fly?" I think our hobby, as well as the sport aspects, would grow as well.

Like I said..somebody wanting to invert the "Realworld" aviation pecking order....
actually if you go to major airshows around the world
everything else other than WWII .......is just filler material to eat up time,even the jets...
(unless you go to Rinebeck NY were WWI rules the house)

Horrace had a VW bus !!!! I knew he was a hippie at heart.

It is sad to think that we might be the last generations that rub thier hads together and grin as we open a box of wood and imagine what it will be some day.

So maybe diversity is in the hands of the ARF manufactures now. I certainly dosee great diversity in ARF airplanes. Long EZ's, Mig's, every warbird, not so much civil, but some great golden age stuff like that stagger wing and Stearmans.

Its good and its bad. I am very happy to see that there is a demand and a market for the great historic planes of the golden age. I'm glad the market and , (that generation) can recognize the beauty of the classics.

I am, however a little disappointed that ,here in the US, building scale models kits is way down. It seems fairly healthy in Europe. The mags I get from there are amazing. They are as great, if not better than the mags we had here at one time.

Maybe, maybe, if I stop thinking of this hobby in terms of the US, and start thinking of in terms of the global village, things aren't so bad. Ex. I'm building a Sig Bonanza. The other 3 guys building ,or that just finished one are in Labanon, Australia, and Chille. Its pretty amazing that 4 guys from all corners of the earth can chat about a kit they are building. And although there may not be that much building taking place here, there is model building happening all around the world now. Many countries now have developed a middle class. And that middle class is generally involved in manufacturing a product. They use thier hands and they know the joys and satisfaction of doing so.

We are, dare I use the word, Craftsman. You can't force someone to be a craftsman. Its like a calling. It either happens for you or it doesn't. Its like having a musical gift. Americans don't seem to value skilled labor, craftsman, as much as they once did.

So, I'm back where I started. Diversity, ( in the US), is now a function of the ARF market place. A clever ( off shore) company looking for a niche market will introduce a new and better product. And the free market shall provide us with diversity. I'm not saying that is the way I would like for it to happen. I just think that is the way the world is now. Americans are much too busy blogging to build. What this country needs is a good EMP to get folks out of the house.

Craftsmanship..built this hobby.....but as one that does build I do appreciate the time saving of an ARF.

We trade time for money and money...for time.

But nothing will every beat showing up at the field with a plane that ......YOU BUILT.

Maybe if we made a PS3/Wii/Xbox game called Stickbuilder II: Gangsta Pattern,
a FPS<first person sticker> 3d game of 1/8x1/4 & 1/16sheet Balsa with a foul language soundtrack & UnLockable nudity to give it a mature Rating that makes senators want to ban it....

Then we could get the kids today into building models rather than buying ARFs

Kid,

Are you trying to get this thread locked down? Why the personal attack aimed at me? Is it because you had to stoop to the inane posts in the other thread? What have I said in this thread that warranted this?

I have noticed that the AMA forums seem to be the only place where the fantastic four congregate. I never see any of you attempting to give any aid or assistance to those who request it. Moreover, I never see any model that you have built. Just exactly what is your purpose here? Are you such a misfit, and such a miserable person that attacking someone else is your only diversion? I am truly sorry for you. You are really a piece of work.

Bill, AMA 4720

Stick-
wow.
I cant believe you think I was attempting to refer to you in what was obviously a joke.

But,
I'm sorry you happen to have a RCU handle that makes a great game name.
I was not my intent to refer to you, or imply anything about you, with my joke.
here, I'll clear this up...

I do NOT feel the guy here called Stickbuilder is a gangster.
I do NOT feel the guy here called Stickbuilder uses prolific foul language, nor uses nudity in his endevors.
I do NOT feel we need senators to try to ban the guy here called Stickbuilder.

sorry you didnt see the videogame joke

If you have some suggestions to other joke names for the game, PM me & I'll put it up if it is game sounding.

I do not have time for video games. I build model aircraft as a hobby and for a diversion. Might I suggest that you try it?

Bill, AMA 4720

mmmmmmmmmmm.....beer....

I first tried it more than 50 years ago, and still do it when I need to in order to have a model (type, size, quality, etc.) I can't buy. A few things have changed since building the first ones. For one, I have acquired a host of other interests and the means to pursue them, and managed to develop other skills since then that give me satisfaction to employ with a sense of competence and pride. Secondly ARFs are no longer (generally) the rubber ducky junk such as Lanier sold in the 60's and 70's. The most recent ARF I purchased is an example in point, an E3D designed by Gary Wright, and built in China. I could have bought the kit for about 50 bucks from Gary (until a few months ago when he got out of the business) and spent on the order of 40 hours building it, pieced together from minutes here and hours there spread out over a month or two, under the best of circumstances. I would have saved about 100 bucks, so my time in building it would have been worth $2.50/hr, about 2% of my burdened billing rate before I (semi) retired. Not looking good from an economic standpoint. Well, there's the pride of accomplishment to consider. Not much in the way skill required, but there is always the craftsmanship angle - so I look at the ARF and try to make an honest assessment of how it stacks up against what it would be had I built it. I'm a good builder, not in comparison to those that build for Top Gun competition by any stretch, but amongst model builders in general, and I have know quite a few. So could/would my build of this model be better than that of some semi-slave laborer in PRC? Frankly, no. That coolie did an excellent job of building/covering it, so scratch pride of accomplishment from the potential payoff for building it myself.
Glad I bought it as an ARF. Just hope that coolie couldn't fly it as skillfully as I can.

Abel

As quoted by littlecrankshaft

"If we would just say “I had a great time building this plane and it sure flies good too...would you like to go to the park and see it fly?" I think our hobby, as well as the sport aspects, would grow as well".

Building is every bit (actually more fun) as flying for me. I know this and many others do, too. I'm trying very hard to relate this to other members in my club, by promoting the building aspect of R/C. Some take to it and some don't even consider. It's their loss.

Abel, if your have to put a dollar value on your hobbies (any of them) then you can't afford them. It's about what you do for fun, and not about how many of them you can do. At least that's the way it is for me. Sure I can go and buy whatever I want. But there is (for me) no pride of ownership in a model that someone else built. There is no rush of self satisfaction that I get with something that I cut every part for and fastened together, and figured out the points of balence, and the amount of control surface throw that would be required, not to mention incidence settings.

If owning a model airplane that someone else built blows your skirt up, then have fun. Please don't try to turn the tables with the old lame, "did you build your house, or your car"? They are not our hobby. If they were, i'm sure that some could and would do it. No, I didn't cast my own engine, or grow my own Balsa tree either, but that is reaching pretty far. Those who can, do. Those who can't or won't let someone else do it for them.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

[/quote]
It's about what you do for fun, and not about how many of them you can do. At least that's the way it is for me.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
[/quote]


Bingo. There is the very reason some build and some don't. With your own words. Why must you take a condescending attitude any time the subject of building or buying an ARF comes up? As far as how they fly, I'll stack my Hangar 9 33% planes up against anything I've seen locally scratch built. I've built three kits in the last 5 years and while it was an enjoyable distraction during the "off season" I prefer to spend my time FLYING. That's what I, and the majority of other RCers, do for fun. It doesn't make them lesser or you greater

Bill-

I don't really put a dollar value on my hobbies, but I do put a time value on them. Dollars are easier to count and attach an intrinsic value to, so I do a rough mental conversion. Time wasn't such a valued commodity when I started building model airplanes at age 10 or 12. It was endlessly available then, or so it seemed. Now some 5 decades later, it doesn't seem as limitlessly available to me as it was then, so I budget it - not rigidly by any means, but in some general proportion to the satisfaction the activity gives me in return.

Roger on not trying to turn the tables on you with any measure of what you value as compared to what I value, in hobby pursuits or otherwise. I don't know what proportion of your model hobby time is spent building vs. flying, but whatever it is it's your thing so just do it and there is no reason on earth why I would find any fault with that. For me, I have personal.........issue I guess, not a problem but more a challenge that is right on topic for this thread - diversity. I want to have a go at flying everything that can be made to fly. Building everything would mean I wouldn't have time to fly everything, or as practical matter, anything. The ARF model I mentioned is an icon in that aspect of model flying referred to as 3D. That's a current interest for me, to experience the stretched-out flight envelope they are capable of, as no 1:1 scale aircraft is. As a popular personality in the 3D flying arena put it, "fly it like you stole it." I understand what he means by that and like the idea. I probably would not fly it with that inferred kind of abandon after putting a lot of hours into building it.

Well built ARFs have their place for me. YMMV, and apparently does by a large margin. I'm OK with that and hope you are too.

Abel

Great discussion guys! And civil!


It seems that in the past, before electrics, helicopters, and big birds we had more in common with each other. We were forced to build our own planes. Those that could build helped those that couldn't. Those that could paint helped those that couldn't. Those that could tinker with radios and get them to work helped those that couldn't. etc, etc, etc. We joined forces just to obtain a minimum of success. Usually it was a lot of fun to share a difficult task and the resulting success or failure. Of course it helped that we were all working on very similar projects, not nearly the vast array of different modeling activities then. I miss the shared effort and remember the triumphs as well as the failures, all with a smile. This part of the hobby is likely gone forever.


I realize that we can't turn back the clock to "the good old days", (and I wouldn't want to) but do you think that as we have improved the quality of hobby equipment while reducing the cost, and increasing the diversity of products available, we have become more isolated as modelers? Is it possible that things are so easy now we don't need each other? Ready to fly electric planes and helicopters! Plug and play glow planes! Who needs an instructor or a club or the AMA or even friends?

When I was young control line was cool! Everyone flew Ucontrol just about everywhere. Schoolyards, football fields, parking lots and vacant lots were busy with planes buzzing about. Kmart and Walgreens sold fuel! Yet most were NOT members of the AMA. When RC caught on everyone was forced to join in order to fly at the club field. The AMA heralded a great increase in membership when in fact all the new members were just control line guys changing over to RC. The AMA was able to count a greater percentage of the existing modelers as members.

Today we are in a similar situation except substitute park flyers instead of control line.

Do we need the AMA anymore? Certainly those that fly at club fields do. But there are very many modelers in this area that do not fly at club fields and are not members of any club or the AMA.

Wouldn't we have more of a voice if we could count these people as members? Is it possible for the AMA to cast a wider net and to serve a greater percentage of modelers despite the diversity?

It's about what you do for fun, and not about how many of them you can do. At least that's the way it is for me.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
[/quote]


Bingo. There is the very reason some build and some don't. With your own words. Why must you take a condescending attitude any time the subject of building or buying an ARF comes up? As far as how they fly, I'll stack my Hangar 9 33% planes up against anything I've seen locally scratch built. I've built three kits in the last 5 years and while it was an enjoyable distraction during the "off season" I prefer to spend my time FLYING. That's what I, and the majority of other RCers, do for fun. It doesn't make them lesser or you greater
[/quote]

So as I read your take on the subject, I have a condescending attitude, because I would like to see you be able to enjoy more than one aspect of the hobby? Hoss, that ain't condescending, that's wanting you to be able to enjoy more of it.

So, your 9 33% planes are better than any scratch built models that you have seen locally? So what? You don't get very good at scratch building on your first attempts. Maybe they have a different flight envelope than do your 33% models. Maybe they are scale models that approximate the scale flight style of the full scale. Not everyone enjoys watching 3-D. Some people like for their models to look like the real thing in flight. You didn't specify what kind of models that are flown at your field, so we can only guess.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

I understand that many folks don't have the time or skill to build their models. OR they might think its a waste of time to build. Thats not the issue , as I see it. I don't mind people flying ARF's. But when I go to the field and there are 7 or 8 giant Extras and nothing else, it is very disappointing to me. For some reason, I don't know why, those giant ARF aerobats just don't interest me anymore. I've seen to many of them in the last few years. They are everywhere. THe place seems infested with them. I want to see more kinds of planes. They sell giant ARF Mustangs and Bearcats. I know they do. I have seen the ads for them. They sell all sorts of giant ARFs nowaday. But they never seem to show up at the field. I see 40 size trainers. I see a handful of sport planes. And I see a herd of giant aerobats. I don't get it. Why is everyone choosing to buy those giant aerobats. I fly smaller 40 and 60 size aerobats myself. They will do just about anything those giant ones do. I don't have the power to weight ratio or the ultra low wing loading , so I don't mess with the high alpha stuff. But most of the guys out there can't even perform the old school manuevers, they don't need a broader envelope to contain their talent. So, I really don't understand the attraction. Are they status symbols ? Is it like driving a BMW or something? If that is the case, then the spirit of the hobby is indeed dead.
One thing that I loved about this hobby from the very beginning was that there was no status. A surgeon might be standing in the pits joking with a plumber. A plant manager kidding with an electrician. There were no classes or income stratums. Everyone were buddies. The very idea that folks are buying a certain type of airplane due to its status really bothers me. ANd I hope that sort of thing doesn't lead to the end of blind acceptance of a brother modeller.
Another thing that bothers me about this is the lack of imagination. This hobby isn't all about the technical. We are all Walter Mitty imagining ourselfs flying............flying what ? Competing in a technical aerobatic competition ? Where is the romance in that ? Am I the only one that wants pretend I'm strafing boxcars in Germany or dogfighting the Red Baron? Can't we imagine anything? To come so close to expressing this inner child fantasy come true, and then miss it because the awareness of your staus in the community might be diminished if you weren't flying a BMW, is thought that marks the end of the hobby as we know it.
I fear the diversity in the hobby is being replaced with a desire to be part of the herd. Or a total lack of imagination.

PilotFighter,

I totally agree with you. I think that you have managed to say what I was trying to convey, and without whizzing anyone off. Great Job.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brothrhood #1

PilotFighter,


First off, let me say I am not wizzed off I know the printed words here cannot fully convey the actual emphasizes that is intended but let me say...To each his own! You may not fully appreciate the reason for the large aerobats but after being lucky enough to have the opportunity to fly a few...all I can say is Awesome! Truly AWESOME! There is absolutely nothing else that compares to the aero-ability they have. When flying aerobatics is the desire, the large aerobat is definitely the answer. The typical large aerobat flyer doesn’t envision his self in the model as others may but instead simply attempts to fly a scale appearing performance model to the limits of its capabilities. It isn’t about peer pressure or impressing others for most of the pilots…It is simply the sport of flying high performance models.

I hear you. I went through a phase that lasted nearly 20 years when I thought performance was king. As I get older, I think maybe romance is king. They at least share the title or did . That seems over now and I don't understand why. We all enjoy high performance models. I think that is somewhat universal. But there are days when sitting in the lawn chair and cruising the Erpoop is all I want to do. I have different planes for different moods.
Maybe hanging around real airports has jaded me. My friend had a Steen Skybold. I loved flying around in it with the canopy off. The wind and the noise was great. And here in Houston, an open cockpit is nearly required in summer. My friend , the one that owned the Skybolt, lusted for and then bought a Piper Cub. Now he wants a Knight Twister. He always wants something else. And the entire gang at the airport are that way too. Got to have a Pacer. Look at that 195. I think these guys have influenced me.
The attitude at the real airport is very different. And thats where I come from. But alot of guys come from there .

So as I read your take on the subject, I have a condescending attitude, because I would like to see you be able to enjoy more than one aspect of the hobby? Hoss, that ain't condescending, that's wanting you to be able to enjoy more of it.

So, your 9 33% planes are better than any scratch built models that you have seen locally? So what? You don't get very good at scratch building on your first attempts. Maybe they have a different flight envelope than do your 33% models. Maybe they are scale models that approximate the scale flight style of the full scale. Not everyone enjoys watching 3-D. Some people like for their models to look like the real thing in flight. You didn't specify what kind of models that are flown at your field, so we can only guess.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
[/quote]

I'm sorry you took my post so personaly but I do find your attitude common among the anti-ARF brigade.

I never said that your intentions were condecscending, just your attitude towards non-builders. Perhaps your goal of sharing the pleasures of kit building would be better served without the holier than thou attitude. Here's a few examples from some of your more recent posts in this and other threads.

"Today's entry level model airplane enthusiasts are expecting instant gratification, whereas you and I expected to build whatever we flew, from rubber power, right on through spark ignition, and then to glow."

"Even those who already have some kind of model (either one that they have bought from a half fast builder or a factory built ARF) and it flies poorly, have no interest in how to trim or balance the model to make it into a good flyer."

"The fact remains that we do build, and not glue some sub assemblies together. We also have knowledge of what the model is built from, and what kind of glue we used in the construction process."

"Guys, why not try to at least reglue the rotten joints and use good hardware. I don't expect to ever see any of you wanting to build a scale model, but you can make something that is marginal, acceptable."

"I began building in order to be able to fly something. I'm still in that mindset. I take absolutely zero personal pride in the ownership of a model airplane that someone else has built. It might as well be a Stanzell Electro Streak."

"As to the cannot, and will not argument, if you guys will not, it won't be long before you can not, because you will have never learned how."

"We don't see you as serious hobbyists, since you don't build your models…."

"WACO= Something that you can't build."

Let's face it, folks pick up a hobby first and foremost because it interests them. If building ( substitute FF, CL, Eflight etc. ) is not interesting to a person no amount of ribbing, poking, jeering or lecturing is going to persuade them to spend any of their free time doing it. I can surely admire displays of great craftmanship and expertise in any endeavor but that doesn't mean i will or should spend my time doing it.

Gee,

You could have spent the time that it took to research all that, building something, rather than trying to justify whatever it is that you do. What does that garbage have to do with diversity? Looks like you are the one with the problems with the builders, rather than the other way around. What did I say that was not true?

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Robotech,
You can now add this one also

Is this the thread where I talk about folks telling me to quit the hobby cause I dont wanna spend money on stuff besides $7 049cox engines in $5 of balsa & Doculam planes?

That is a diversity problem, right?
I say AMA is expensive, and I get told I need to quit cause I cant afford the hobby.
I can Afford to fly, flying is cheap.
Folks that use bigger than 2oz tanks think all flying has to cost hundreds.

Discount Flyers need a SIG to keep all the haters off our back.
Surgeons & Plumbers? Hey, some of us Drive Pizza for our ramen money.

No, this is not that thread.

Bill, AMA 4720