Right, you're not turning anyone away, just advocating "eliminate(ing) those that are "just passing through" or are "kinda interested" about R/C." You certainly don't have to instruct if you feel that the students are wasting your time. And as you said, you wouldn't take money for it anyway, so why make them pay for your time? To be honest, if someone pays dues at my club, that indicates to me that they are pretty serious.

Ok well, Hossfly, I read post 118 in the beginners forum, but I dont really get what ruralflyers post has to do with what your saying , maybe you could expound on the merits for me ,

Highlander.

I just spent a half an hour reading all the posts in this thread. Two thoughts come to mind:

1- Clubs have made it overly complicated, expensive, and time-consuming requiring newbies to solo on large 4-channel planes (ie, the 40-size trainer that has become “the standard” trainer). Clubs, and the instructors, have become victims of their own circumstance.

For instance, I recently have been in email contact with the head instructor at our local club asking questions about membership, instruction, etc. I wanted to fly only electrics. His response was that my 3-channel trainer was fine, hand-launching (forgiving of the taxiing and grass takeoff requirements) was fine with them, etc. In other words, the club (mostly glow) wasn’t stuck in that “40-size trainer mentality” and that they would be more than happy to teach me to fly, and it would require only a few hours of instruction instead of something like the 20-25 mentioned earlier.

My point is not to start an electric vs glow argument- there’s plenty of those threads already. What I am getting at is that the point of this thread is bringing up the fact about the lack of instructors, and how they’re “overworked” and “burned out”. Hey, maybe the club’s instruction program and its requirements need to be looked at…???

2- Is it any wonder there’s so many beginners are taking up parkflyers and teaching themselves?

As for instructors being paid, I’m against it. Most new members, after paying for a plane, club dues, etc., expects that free flight instruction is included. I suspect that if you told a potential member that they would be charged extra for instruction, they’ll go somewhere else.

However, in exchange for providing a valuable service to the club, I do feel instructors should have free club membership, excused off the “mowing” or “maintenance” list or any other club duty rosters, etc. They’re providing their time for the club- they should get some perks for doing it.

Highlander:"Ok well, Hossfly, I read post 118 in the beginners forum, but I dont really get what ruralflyers post has to do with what your saying , maybe you could expound on the merits for me , "

Touche! I screwed the Pooch on that one. #115 it is or at least right now. Anyway it is my reply to MikeL ref his question if I want to be a paid instructor. Like He-L NO!

Actually the original post starting this thread plainly stated that condition.

Your posting; >>>>>

"It is obvious from the proponents of this thread that they want the business handed to them ,supported by the AMA which Im sure will be an advertising bonus to them ,along with clubs supplying them with a never ending stream of new money ,
<<<<<<<<<<

is therefore a direct attack on me as I am the major proponent. So if you read my history in that particular reply to MikeL, then at least you should be aware of the error of your ramblings.

I don't expect you to understand any "Merits* outside your immediate arm's length. However don't worry, there are a number of people that have no ability to grasp conceptual thinking with vision of something better. You'll live.

Hossfly

So you have no desire to be a paid instructor , well thats at least is something ,

but really changes very little of the central arguement that I have made , whether or not you will be the one who essentially has this business handed to them or not it still remains that is exactly what will happen.



Since the paid insructors will not have to compete for business amoung themselves , but simply wait for the next interested person to walk through the door .


I forget who made the point , and im not interested in looking it up , but they suggested that the instructors quailify with some extensive criteria before being allowed to instruct under this program. would you be adverse to such a requirement ?


as for my ability to grasp anything including conceptual thinking,,,, that is simply none of your business ,we are not that good of friends yet.

One interesting point though ,I have seen a consistent plea to stop making money an Issue in this , but yet in your inital post Money is exactly the point that you have made to AMA so you by generating those figures hope to work on the income part of those making the money but there is little interest to deal with the financial aspect of those spending it , this I hope AMA business leadership are wise enough to know is a reciept for disaster in business, since not all areas of our fine country enjoy the same finacial stability .,,,with a relitively smaller degree of the arguement being instructors being burned out,and that this incentive to earn a few extra bucks will magically reduce that burn out ,

My own personal experiance with this says that is simply not the way of it , after spending 27 years operating my own business , and now for the last 7 being in a semi retired position , I can tell you that for all the money I could make ,I could not go back to that business , there is almost a physical pain that I get if I even consider it , that is the result of burnout, 27 years 6 days a week 12 to 14 hrs a day , I was done and to this day I still am.

Highlander

Highlander, I'm really not understanding your point, and I think you are mis-understanding the original proposal (post #1). The original proposal suggests that youth, folks working at minimum wage jobs, and retired/semi-retired folks would do the training if they could make a little money at it. There's no mention, really, of anybody making what I would call much of a "business" out of this. The post makes it clear that the instructors would pay their full way in terms of AMA insurance provided, and that everything else would be worked out at the club level, if a club was even interested in the concept.

Personally, I really doubt anybody would get rich teaching. Frankly, you seem a little hung up on the idea that you worked hard for your business, why should we make it easy for anyone to conduct theirs? Well, doesn't the golf pro just sit there waiting for interested persons to walk through the door? Just because the system helps you find customers, it's still hard work to run a business. There's accounting, grumpy customers, liability and taxes. Lastly, instructors would compete for customers. I see a club making a list of instructors available to newbies. Some instructors would charge more than others, and the ones that charge more would have to justify it by offering something the others don't, such as the willingness to work hours the others don't, or perhaps they provide better training equipment, or they are better instructors, or maybe they just appeal to the folks that want to pay more. Some instructors would get better word of mouth, and could charge more. New instructors would have to charge less until they gained a reputation.

Some guys would find out that they just weren't cut out for paid instruction, while others would find they really enjoy it and even if you paid for an hour, they would help you for two. Some clubs might try it out, and find that it generated a lot of bad will, so next year they vote no longer to permit it. Other clubs would find it solves enormous problems, and frees up the officers to do other things and they can't see how they lived without it.

The original proposal suggests that 80% of clubs wouldn't even consider using paid instructors. So why all the controversy?

Pinball,

First off I appreciate your attitude , it is a breath of fresh air thank you !!

Ya I worked hard to conduct my business , I had really stiff competition in the field ,

But that was more directed at the burn out side of the Issue than at the ease of the business,

But look at it this way , if the club pays the money to opt into this program , I believe that all the instructors within that club will have to go along with it ,so where does the choice of free instruction come in ,a club in this program will not have free instruction available ,

which in turn results in this problem, and I know you dont want to hear about cost , but thats the way it works if no one spends no one makes , its that simple ,this would virtually eliminate the young people and the older fixed income people from entrance or very serverly slow the process , what I see is a young person who wants to fly , joining a club and only being able to afford one lesson or in the terms of hourly one hour a month towards flight instruction , given the numbers used here even if they could afford 2 instruction periods a month, that would be one year to solo, not only would the instructor become aggrevated with the student the student just by virtue of the time would more than likely dissapear with much bad feelings and much bad advertising ,

watching the guy with money solo in three weeks and 4 weeks , I know this is not everyones concern but it is one of mine ,

the next is the quaility control issue of this , just as you stated , there will be varying degrees of quaility , and since there will be no PRO staus required , which means the instructor ,s have put in the time , effort and responsibility to achieve ,it really makes it a buyer beware situation,

right now all the instructors work togther , do you think they still will ? or will it become something else.

which means that the student gets the benefit of maybe combined time of 100 years experiance , that will be made into a case by case experiance ,

all in all, if it happens it happens , but I think that AMA needs to get a handle on what maybe some very serious problems in the design and planning of any such move , not just move toward an income , and not move quickly to make changes , I also dont think that Hossfly has really seriuosly considered all of the ramifications either , but thats another ball of wax.

Highlander

Highlander, all good points. I will admit to some uncertainty as to how it would work, and it's not just Hossfly, nobody can predict all the ramifications. But the success of the several "flight schools" around the country would leave me to think there's a market to this, and I see almost zero downside. If it's not working for a club, the club members simply vote to withdraw from the program (or their board decides). OK, yes, the AMA lawyers should examine the whole thing first to make sure we can back out, but assuming it passes muster, I say we should try it, at least for a pilot program (heh, heh).

Pinball,

I have no problem with some sort of pilot program , perhaps ,the club that hossfly is a member of will sign on for a three year study , to evaluate the the growth or decline .

if it works for them then it can be offered nation wide, if it dont then only the author and those who are directly associated with him will be affected by the failure.


I think I will include that recommendation in my email to the AMA which tomorrow will be in final draft.

again thanks

Highlander

In your email to the AMA, request that any club that wants can try the pilot program. There is more than one club that is having a problem getting volunteers. This is the first year we have had the problem and I expect it to get worse.

Dan

Dan,

I suppose it would be logical and reasonable to select a group of clubs that would like to be part of a study of this sort , perhaps one from each or at least several different economic locations.

I will amend my email to Include your Idea it is a good one , and not without reason.

Highlander

Good idea!
I'm going to put it in my e-mail to AMA in support of hossfly's suggestion.
Jon

Some clubs are very small and user friendly so to speak and paying for instruction would not even be considered, what my gripe is is our club is one of those small clubs that would not charge for instruction and I think the paper work for the ama would put them in a position that they would charge a fee to EVERY club paid instructor or no paid instructor and I don't think the guys in my club will go for an extra insurance fee for something we will not be needing. If this goes through mark my words we will all pay for this insurance like it or not and I think the ama will end up being the looser in this one.

For those who don't think there is a market for paid instruction, how about placing an ad in Model Aviation offering flight instruction either free or for say, $70 per hour and see if you get any bites. If there is no market, as so many are so sure of, then no one should answer any of the ads.

At one time AMA would not cover turbines, but after going through a lot of leg and paper work, a coverage waiver is now attainable. Once more, instruction coverage would be optional and maybe at extra cost to the paid instructor and not the club.

nascarjoe

I agree with Goofup. The thing to remember is most newbies don't really understand/realize that using an instructor is their best chance for success until someone at the local club tells them, or they read it somewhere. If the amount of time a person spends on instructing is felt as an encroachment on their personal time, maybe it's time to take a break from instructing. Maybe setting a schedule and sticking to it allowing more time for personal flying is an answer. If you're just an old grumpy instructor resentful of being asked to impart your experience and knowledge, pretend you don't know anything and soon nobody will ask you squat. Newbies are grateful for the experiences, whether they return the following year or not. Once bitten they will return to R/C, sooner or later. It happened to me. Plant a seed and it will grow... maybe not at the rate you expect. Kind of like spreading the gospel... you do it out of love, not for money. :sunsmiley

Burger

This thread took several turns. I think that the basic feeling is that MOST clubs have made and will continue to make free instruction available. However, for the newbie that wants time dedicated to him when he wants and how he wants, he may very well find it necessary to pay someone.

I also think that in the vast number of cases, anyone expecting to learn to fly in 4 or 5 hours elapsed at the field will be disappointed. 4 or 5 hours of actual stick time is probably a realistic expectation. Anyone that thinks or demands that in one outing to the field may very well be disappointed.

IF the AMA does condone paid training at chartered club fields, I think it will be a casual thing, not an organized business. I know many of the older members at my club would be willing to meet a newbie at the time when the newbie wants, for a fee. The newbie will not find such demands being met by most instructors for free. The same is true of the instructors undivided attention.

Unfortunately, not all newbies are grateful for anything. Some are, some are not. We had one fellow show up recently. He told a club officer that he had joined the AMA and had been told by a LHS owner that we HAD to train him and that he did not have to be a member of our club, in rather loud tones. We set the newbie straight and did the same with the shop owner. It was amazing to see the change of attitude of both. It looks like he will be a good addition to our club, but, it certainly did not look or sound that way in the beginning. Oh... the training is being done on the time line of the instructor, not that of the newbie.

JR

I'd like to comment on this subject - and I have on several threads in the beginners forum.

I'm just at the end of my "instructor" stage for now. I've soloed but I still work on a buddy box to learn crosswinds etc...

If the club I wound up joining had a provision for paid instructors I would have JUMPED at the chance for many reasons.

A little background first. If you have any interest at our club you have to fly with person X first, even if you have a trainer that's ready you must fly with person X and then get passed off to another instructor on your own plane. But it's up to you to contact an instructor who avoid the weekends like the plague cause honestly they never get to fly when 5 newbies show up at once - and most likely work during the week like most people.

I wound up with an instructor who was retired and could meet me out there during the week (I'm self employeed so I just go during the week to avoid trying to practice landings on a buddy box with 3 others in the flight pattern at the same time).

I always hated to bug the man and call him to meet me out there when he constantly brought up the fact that he had quit going to the field on weekends at all for the above mentioned reason. Of all the instructors on the list he was the only one (out of about 7 - out of a club of 100ish total) that would actually make an appointment to see someone either during the week or weekend. With the others I contacted were just like "Come on out and see if someone is around" Well a 2 hour drive (1 hour each way) is a lot to just see if someone is around.

Now I'm not gonna drive an hour (more at certain times of the week but on average an hour) and sit there and *hope* an instructor shows up and isn't busy. Plus I didn't like the idea of getting take-off lessons from one person and landings from another.

Now if they would have had the OPTION (and option is important - please keep free instruction available) of paying someone so that I could have flown more often (I was available to fly about 5 days a week on average and am averaging 1 or 2 flights at one meeting about every 2 weeks - at this rate it will take a LONG time).

In my 3 months or so of going out to the field (I go on weekends only to watch not fly) I've seen about 5 people total show up with a new trainer and ask someone to take a look and not get a first flight in (3 of them showed up twice) and never got a flight or even had their plane maidened/checked out and I've never seen them yet and they haven't shown up a meeting to join etc..

I wouldn't mind blocking in an hour or two and paying for it with a quality instructor. I've seen the ads in magazines for intensive training at certain locales. I can honestly say if one was near enough to me (3-4 hour drive) I would have attended than play phone tag/see who shows up to instruct game.

I realise you have to get instruction on the time frame of the instructor. But how about making a pay option for those who want to speed up the process?

I've seen mentioned in other threads here that XX club has "trainer night" or whatever with set aside time to get instruction. I wish our club would have that - even if on a first come first serve basis (meaning I might fly this week and get passed next week) I would know that whoever was there was there to instruct and instruct only.

I learned how to fly full scale for free - just as many learned by paying an instructor - why should model flying be different than full scale?

After going back and reading the WHOLE thread MORE (actually amost zero did) people in this thread need to ask the newbie - not the instructor about how well paid instruction would be received.

Try it before you get set in stone one way or the other.

Think abou this. I'm a 32 year old adult who has followed RC for over 10 years and recently moved to an area where I can actually drive to an instructor.

Money wise it breaks down like this..

Plane/Engine/Radio - $350ish (100 plane/100 engine/ 150 radio)
Field Box with equip - $120
AMA - $58 (or whatever it was)
Club dues - $120
Odds N Ends (fuel etc..) $50
Total - $648

People in this thread act like the people coming out to fly are flat broke. Take a look at how much a "complete" system cost nowdays with a radio and all the equipment that you accumulated over many years - now buy it all at once. You think paying $100 or $200 more to actually FLY would matter? Not likely as I've yet to see in 3 months a honest to god person show up who was less than 18 at our club. In fact at age 32 I'm the second youngest person I've seen at our club actually fly.

My MAIN concern now is getting enough instruction so that I can solo confidently so that I can go out to the field and actually fly when no instructor is there and I can get out of the way so the next person can start bugging the instructor for time.

I expect my actual time at the field will triple or more once I don't need the instructor there to fly and I can fly at any time I want

I have excess to the most amazing RC flight instructor I've ever seen and that is no exaggeration. What I mean is that I've only met him recently, but I've seen him dozens of times hand the tx over to spectators, (many my newest customers) stand next to them for 5-10 minutes and then step back a few feet and let them fly, (no buddy-box) with only an occasional "suggestion" on where/how to make a turn. Totally amazing.

He does get paid, but usually from people from out of town. He does teach for free on Tuesday and Thursday in one club and Wednesday in another club. He says he likes teaching for free better because he can cut the beginner off in 5 minutes or 30, it depends on how he feels and how many beginners he has to teach, as opposed to paid instruction where he is totally obligated to spend at least an hour with any student.

One thing I have to mention about other club instructors. That is that although they mean well, it seems that literally none of the beginners who take lessons from these instructors seem to ever learn anything. It's like, day after day, month after month, year after year, no progress is ever being made. They can say they "teach" for free, but are they really doing anything worthwhile if no beginner ever learns how to fly on their own?
I've seen 3-5-7 year beginners not doing any better than when they first started, but with the other instructor, they literally learn to fly very well within a few minutes of their first ever RC flying experience.

Good news (?), the RC industry has finally taken serious notice of this instructor, but I am a little torn, as I'm afraid these industry members will take him away as he is doing excellent in-the-field marketing for my recently opened hobby shop. Want to learn not only to fly, but takeoff and land immediately and get the learning process over ASAP? I firmly believe that literately every beginner does.

nascarjoe
Lighthouse Hobbies

Good comments and your points are valid. I think that in the context you have written here it is a good idea to allow instruction for a fee. I believe clubs who decide to "authorize" instruction for a fee, should also have free instruction available. Every situation is different and what works for my club may not work for yours, but the option should be available. I personally don't want to see some hot dog instructor turning the flying field into his personal money making business. If an instructor wants to start a business like that, it my opinion, it would be best for him/her to have their own facility. Then, the club could kindly refer anyone who wanted to pay for instruction by appointment to his facility... Just a thought.

I agree with what you have written here. I was just saying that sometimes you have to take a break from giving "all the time" and recharge your batteries. When it becomes a resented chore instead of joyful giving, it's time for a break. I don't think anyone would think any less of someone who realizes they need to "rest" for awhile. I appreciate your response.

Yeah I could see that happening.

This hobby attracts more window shoppers then converts.
Free instruction is great......... Paid instruction in some cases could be more of a help then hinderence.

Most clubs busy days are weekends simply restrict instruction on weekends.

In that case most members would be unaware an unaffected if Hot dog instructor teaches tuesdays from 8am-12pm

BTW the club and paid instructor would need to work out a % of money that would go to the club. say 20% of the instructors gross goes directly to the club. Might even reduce dues....

I'd counter with more people would be "retained" into the hobby long term if they got full time/quality instruction when they were new.

I got zero advice on building my plane and radio hookup etc... Luckily I had been reading RC magazines for about 10 years and looking here for stuff.

If you go buy a plane, put it together with no help and then get peicemeal instruction from 3-4 instructors who tell you what you are doing is wrong but it's what the other instructor told you to do.

No wonder retention isn't high. I see comments at the field about people who show up with a new plane that isn't the ideal .40 glow trainer about how they wasted their money and won't last long.

Playing the devil's advocate, and although I am all for instructors getting some kind of "incentive" to teach, I can see how paid instruction might not be [the] solution. What I mean is, I've seen too many so-called "instructors" simply stand around and prevent beginners from crashing, (not in all cases) and not have a clue on how to truly instruct. The do this year end and year out and the student never seems to improve and in some cases, regress.

Then there is the case of instructor burnout. If instructors are now going through burnout only teaching 10 minutes per lesson, once or twice a week, what can be expected if the instructor is paid by the hour, to stay with more than one hard to teach student?

BTW, although AMA doesn't seem to want to broadcast that they allow paid instruction...that is if the club pays the instructor. In theory, the student pays the club and the club pays the instructor. That way, they can take out their "cut" before the instructor gets paid.

nascarjoe
Lighthouse Hobbies

One of the big things I like about the instructor I have is when I'm having trouble doing something....

I had problems transitioning my sight picture from in fight where I did fine, to lining up the runway. I could fly just fine, and land just fine once I got lined up with the runway but had trouble going from watching "all air" to "air/ground".

He flew his plane awhile with me in the pilots box while he was doing touch and goes so I could get the "picture" in my mind of what a good approach looked like without worrying about flying the plane.

Plus he doesn't do 3-D manauvers a lot and other wild aerobatics so him flying touch and goes is what he does a lot of anyway.

So he got some flight time in and I got to get some instruction at the same time.