I wanted to show this, as IMHO, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...-f49ffe16a8da&

As the population continues to grow, land for flying, and other activities, will continue to get scarce, leading to the ultimate reduction, or even the demise, of our activities.
As an example, I live in Northern NJ and have to drive 1 1/2 to PA to fly because there are no fields closer that support the type of models I fly, and I'm sure there are other metropolitan areas where this is a problem too. The days of going to the field to fly after work are gone, at least for me.
I'm curious what the hobby will be in 10 years time.
Maybe in the future the only thing you will be able to fly will be the $20 WallMart PF, and if so, what a shame that the hobby devolved into that.
BRG,
Jon

Fear not,
sometimes karma does come back on the guys that move out to the sticks by a RC Field, then want to shut it down.
Just the other day I had to explain to a gal that when she moved 15miles out of town to get away from it all, that included getting away from the guys that deliver the pizza... No Soup For You!

Just hope these local governments dont recall that they can pull an Eminent Domain land grab of RC clubs solely in the name of getting more tax dollars from a housing tract on that land.... you are wasting valuable tax generating land with your hobby and they will help get those tax dollars spent on the community by selling YOUR land to developers.
<the council trips to Cabo San Kickback are just coincidental >

Here's the story for those not wanting to follow a link:

R/C Airplane Fliers Keep Their Field... But With Stipulations
Wed, 12 Mar '08

Club Must Curtail Sunday Flying, Quiet Motors
Radio-controlled model aircraft enthusiasts in Central Florida will be allowed to continue leasing property on which to enjoy their hobby, but will have to accept some new terms to accommodate neighbors.

Hernando Today reports the 100-member Hernando County Radio Control Club leases a 40-acre tract about an hour north of Tampa for use by members year-round, and periodic airshows.

Neighbors -- who say they moved there for the rural atmosphere -- turned out Monday night to tell planning commissioners in Brooksville they don't appreciate the sounds of 'chainsaw engines' in their pastoral refuge.

"People don't want to look out their back yard and be looking at (portable toilets), cars and concession stands and hear the noise of these planes," said attorney Anita Geraci, representing one of the nearby property owners.

"We came out here to live in the country, not to hear airplanes all day long," chimed in resident Jack Deal.

By a 3-to-2 vote, commissioners ruled the club may continue, but must operate only from 9:00 am till dusk. Activities will have to comply with the county's noise ordinance, and there will be no flying on Sundays.

The commission also dictated that no more than 10 people be on the field at any one time, and that no "chain saw powered" aircraft -- presumably those powered by louder motors -- are to be flown. The club notes on its website it will require clarification on those points.

Commissioner Robert Widmar expressed sympathy for the concerns of neighbors, but said the flying events provide teen-agers with needed entertainment options.

"This is a rock and a hard place," Widmar

Doesn't sound entirely unreasonable. No flying on Sundays is a bummer, though.

I don't think that having one neighborhood upset about loud airplanes signals the complete demise of our hobby.
Europe, on the whole, is a bit more crouded than the US. Those folks find places to fly.

No need for the doom and gloom as this hobby will last forever. At least that is what I've been assured time and time again.

CCR

Jon-

RE: "commissioners ruled the club may continue, but must operate only from 9:00 am till dusk. Activities will have to comply with the county's noise ordinance, and there will be no flying on Sundays," this isn't news to many of us. More liberal than reaction from many communities, where the only option you have is to go away. The field where I fly most often was established over 20 years ago, after much resistance by neighbors. I'm grateful for the county's noise ordinance. It is not just a limit on how much noise we can generate, but also sets an objective bound on how much the neighbors must tolerate before complaints will be considered to have any merit. It's a compromise, and neither party is expected to be fully satisfied. So it goes in any society - all laws limit freedoms of some people to some extent. Some reasonably, some not.

Abel

Who was there first, the club, or the complaining neightbors? I know that it really doesn't matter (but it should). Another example of people not fully investigating what they're buying (when thay always claim "we didn't know about the flying field when we moved in next door to it") and then banding together to force the flyers out. I'll bet not one of them complains when the neighbors' lawnmowers or weedeaters are going.

You can always go to Leonia, NJ to Aerodrome.

Sounds like the flyers were there first.

"Neighbors -- who say they moved there for the rural atmosphere -- turned out Monday night to tell planning commissioners in Brooksville they don't appreciate the sounds of 'chainsaw engines' in their pastoral refuge.

"People don't want to look out their back yard and be looking at (portable toilets), cars and concession stands and hear the noise of these planes," said attorney Anita Geraci, representing one of the nearby property owners.

"We came out here to live in the country, not to hear airplanes all day long," chimed in resident Jack Deal."



It is interesting that the complainers call it "their pastoral refuge"...as if they own the land.

The writing is on the wall, we all know this. However, it is time some of these clubs start embracing electric flyers instead of shunning us. Honestly, I think the scream of a 2-stroke is extremely annoying, although the larger gassers and 4-strokes not so bad

Coolers-
But they were not complaining about how loud the toilets were,
or the parked car noise,
or the concession stand noise level....

They were complaining about just having those things silently exist in view from their property.
Electric or not, those folks want to limit what others have on their property, not just the noise.
Perhaps the club should sue the neighbors for ruining the clubs view of the 'pastoral refuge' they built houses on.

I think the quick fix would be for the RC Club to get into the Hog Farming business, and run a high density feed lot on that property . That will make the neighbors want to get a nice smelling RC Field back on the site in no time.

The waste lagoon would fit nicely against their back yards; Hey, Look! Lakeshore property.

They (neighbors) need to look up the definitions of pastoral. Unless the flying field is populated with livestock, they picked the wrong adjective. Rural, maybe; but there was obviously something going on that they initially thought, as individuals, that they could tolerate.
My thoughts are, if they don't like what was there before they got there, then the onus to leave should be on them.

It's weird, the same mentality extends to people who move into the arrival/departure corridors of a big jetport, and then complain about the noise, even though they knew about it beforehand.

I agree with you P51. Moving to a rural area needs to be throughly investigated before the move is made. Last year we had deer eat most of our garden planted to donate to the Senior Food Bank in town. While this sadden us, we did not apply for hunting permits to shoot the beautiful deer. The same thing goes with the flying of our models. There is a lot of artistic points to our hobby beside the great wealth of knowledge imparted to the young people. Since modelers do not live on the field with constant flying, the new neigbors have a great deal of piece and quiet at most times during the day. Just because they may not be home at that time is not the fault of the club.

The one thing I would like to suggest is that before anyone suggests we power our models with electric motors, he or she must first convert all of their auto's to pure electric power first along with every garden tool they own. Only then shall they have the right to suggest WE change our fuel engine models to battery power. I for one would enjoy seeing these people commuting to work in their battery powered sleek looking vehicles at 35 mph.

Rich S.

A lot of people would like to commute to work at 35 mph. Way better than what they are facing now.

I am well aware of the problem in the Atlanta area. For the last 30 years flying sites have been harder and harder to find and subsequently harder to keep. As soon as a club makes a deal for a flying site the developers are hot on their heels and put a subdivision in right next door. It is not just model airplanes, these folks will move in next to an airport and complain about the noise of the planes. They will move in next to a fuel farm and complain that the tanks are a fire hazard. The airport and the fuel farms were there first and the residents and were well aware of their presence when they bought the property but it doesn’t seem to make any difference. The planes have to throttle back on takeoff and maneuver to keep from flying over the populated areas. It would serve them right if a jet would do a stall spin right in the middle of their neighborhood.

These folks will not complain about their neighbors running their lawn mowers, leaf blowers or chain saws right next door but will whine about some models generating less than 100 db a half a mile away. If I complain about some dog barking all night or the neighborhood teenagers parking in the cul-de-sac and playing their car radios so loud that I can hear them from two blocks away, nobody cares about that. There just doesn’t seem to be any logic to it.

Oh, and if you think that the large four stroke engines are quite, just dig out your db meter and measure them sometime. The large displacement engines move more air with each revolution and will consequently read higher on the meter. However, the frequency is lower than a typical two stroke and is not as objectionable. Two strokes turning 15-20K are more annoying but will read lower on the meter. I know that I an going to get flamed about above statement and they will say that a db meter measures air pressure not air volume but I will suggest that they get a meter and measure every engine in their club before they comment. I did!

Red: Here in the city of Scappose, Oregon of Columbia County I too would enjoy seeing the mass commuters traveling through town into Portland going 35 mph instead of 70 while going through red stoplights with their gas hogs on hiway 30. My point in mentioning the electric motored powered car was that as an retired aircaft mechanic from Horizon Airlines, that not one commercial passenger airliner with electric engines ever taxiied up to the passenger terminal and deplaned a load of passengers. So why should we modelers have to change to electric motors to fly our models? Is this just another method of creating a product to make money? Well, someone on another thread mentioned that his fuel engine would have to be pried from his cold dead fingers before and electric motor would be installed in his plane.

IMHO, the thought has occurred to me that this topic maybe a religious one, and not be something discussed.

Yes, Jimmy, there is good reason to live in the other 95% of the land in this country, other then the metro/suburban areas. My heart does go out to you guys! However, I believe in your resourcefulness.

The publics moving into areas with established entities which may conflict with their idea of the pastoralness of their neighborhoods, is a long standing battle! Look how neighborhoods pop up near airports, both major hubs and small general aviation airports and then the neighbors organize and have the "Gumption" to complain and do something about the noise!

When I grew up, my family lived below one of the approach ends of Wold Chamberlain's (Minneapolis/St Paul International Airport) flight pattern. When the parents built this home, they new this to be the case and the airplanes flying over, were all propeller driven at that time. When the early 1960s arrived, so did the Turbo-prop and the noise increased. In the mid to late 60s the jet age hit with the Boeing 707 and the noise really increased. However, the family understood we had chosen to build there knowing full well what had previously existed! We didn't know it would get as loud as it did; but, still felt we had no right to complain, as the airport had been there when we built!

These times have obviously changed! We're a country of whiners and complainers and understand full well that with money, we can do whatever we like! The idea of what is right and what is wrong no longer exists in these cases. Good Luck!

Sounds a lot like the "not in my backyard" mentality. I live in the mountains of western North Carolina where flat open areas are almost non existant. My club field is in the next county from me. Where I live (Asheville area), seems to attract more than the usual share of these "not in my backyard" idiot's. I don't care what you would like to build or do around here, before you know it, there's a group of people forming to oppose it!! From building affordable housing projects to new businesses and industry (Walmart was a great example) to a much needed electric company substation. There is a club based in Asheville who flys at the old landfill, but they have a lot of restrictions as to when and what you can fly. No glow engines on Sunday at all and that just doesn't work for me. I did find an old Superfund site that had promise for aeromodeling close to me but I just found out yesterday that the property owners said NO to the idea. While it's hard to find places to fly, we can still do it and I hope we can continue in our sport well into the future. I guess I'd move out to the middle of nowhere if I had to just to be able to fly RC
Afterthought: The best one I remember was a group of people who moved into a subdivision built near an existing full scale airport and then had the balls to form a group opposed to all the "Noise".

Tell you a not so funny story that ran in this weeks newspaper. We have a train that runs through our town as well as a commuter rail. We have had it for over 10 years now. As they pass through the center of town the fast train (amtrak acella) fires off the air horn prior to going across the grade crossing.
A gentlemen moved into town next to the train station last year, and has succeeded in finally getting the trains to stop blasting their horn as they go through. So he moves into the area, next to the train station that has been there for over ten years, and HE is complaining. What a case of NIMBY!!! How pathetic! He is/was a customer of mine and was in the shop the other day all proud of himself and asked me what I thought of what he did...Well I told him and he was shocked because my shop is even closer to the train station, and I asked him...so who is going to shut you up?! He was apauled and then I reminded him that th next guy with a complaint about something maybe he likes is now more apt to get his way.....

SAD SAD SAD state of affairs in this PC society.

Yup! We have a similar group of clowns here in Asheville trying to get a railroad "Quiet Zone" going here. See: http://www.ashevillequietzone.org/faq Like I said before, you name it there's some group of idiots here in WNC against it![:'(] Sorry, this is getting away from the original intent of the thread.

We lost one of our fields that was in place for at least 30 years. Where are our rights? Someone or a group can move in knowing a model fields exists next door, but we are told to move or curtail activities. In this case, other than the Sunday ban and "chain saw motors", we live with those rules anyway. Since the commissioners specifically stated "chain saw motors", I think you are good. Does anybody fly chain saw conversions anymore? I think it is about time the AMA stand up and give us representation to help fight the loss of fields. It is in their best interest to help keep the fields we have, because it is extremely difficult to locate new flying sites. I think they should provide legal representation to clubs, like other professional organizations do, to represent our rights and help us fight off the politicians that bow down to a minority of landowners that do not like our hobby.

Good point! While the AMA does have a new flying site assistance program, what do they or, can they do as far as keeping what we already have the way we have it? [sm=72_72.gif]

Some thoughts about reality ...

Being there first buys you NOTHING, while being a property owner CAN make your voice loader.

What we do is a hobby. Outsiders view our activity as unnecessary and could best be done without.

The AMA is a dismal failure at supporting our challenged fields. You want to see how it can be done right? Join AOPA and see how they fight for the general aviation industry, airports, and aircraft ownership. OK, they have more leverage available and a more vital industry. But, there are many lessons available.

Take these 3 pessimistic points and we cannot EVER consider our position one of strength when fighting to save our field.

We MUST take a proactive good neighbor position and fight to save it from the start. Establish noise limits BEFORE forced if there are close neighbors. Establish hard over flight control where it might cause conflict. Do not run events that might raise a neighbor's objection. Be a positive activist as a Club ... hold Cub Scout events, Toys-4-Tots, you can think of others.

We have to fight, but when it as become "them against us" it is already too late.

I will go back in my hole now.

Bedford

beepee,
very good points you make about being proactive, esp. concerning noise control. That's why our club enforces strict sound testing of any engine over 1.2 c.i., no ifs, ands, or buts. Our field owner, who is a club member and fairly active flyer, has said that if we have even one complaint about noise, we're done.
We also, every fall, have our Farmers and Flyers picnic. All the neighbors are invited to come eat, fly and get to know us. They are encouraged to voice any concerns they have about our club activities; we would rather hear any complaints straight from the "horses mouth", than from a lawyer or commissioner later on when it is probably too late.

Having social gatherings and inviting the general public is a sound idea. Should you pose your questions about the general concerns of the public, will you get straight answers? Most people I know will shoot it to you straight, but then there are those few that will smile to your face and you know the rest. You can't fix it if don't know it's broke.

The idea of introducing the scouting program to R/C is very viable, also include the Girl Scouts and try to involve schools, industry, clubs, etc. Some have even spoken about flying demos. Sure, those can be set up with a little coordination between the club and park/city reps. Should the demo be set for other than the flying field, it should be put on by only your most accomplished pilots. Just to keep things on the safe side ( you may differ with me, but that is perfectly okay. Don't mean to slight anyone on this.)

Oh yeah, horn thing for the train. I thought that they were required by law to lay on the horn prior to crossings? Hmmm. Of course, could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time. And won't be the last. Laters.