Are we ignoring ARCA OPERATIONAL REGULATION #9 for this conversation
or are we interested in all the rules that would prohibit it, not just national rules.

you've got a couple of options here if you don't like the responses that you are getting. IMO the base problem here is that the AMA rules are ambiguous because of the wording.

You can read and interpret the rules yourself, or, better yet contact the AMA directly and see what they have to say. I've asked them questions directly a couple of times and they have been very responsive. http://www.modelaircraft.org/

khedge, regardless of the AMA rule, do you think standing next to your model [in flight] is a good idea? Can you understand why those who are trying to run a safe event would require maintaining a safe distance? Do you think it is possible to enjoy a 3D demo and put on a good show without going out there to "pet the snake"?

The AMA is an insurance company, not the police. If you want to hover your plane while standing a few feet away from it. (providing you have the discipline to master such a skill) just do it.

........just don't file a claim when something goes wrong, instead take responsibility for your own stupidity.

Would the OP be willing to meet the rules half way,
and move a PVC Pilots Cage out in the runway to be safe AND near his plane?

There are plenty of newbies flying planes beyond their means and old men with slow reflexes and poor vision, dumb-thumbing accidents everyday that keep me from worrying too much about the few who hover over the runway.

I wont worry either, just don't file a claim.

Actually, from what I have read so far, there are no AMA rules to be met half-way, as no one has presented an AMA rule against the pilot being on the runway while hovering. Whether you think it is smart/safe/cool/stupid is not the question. The question is whether there is an AMA rule that specifically says you cannot do it. I have nothing against Chuck Waller, I just asked for clarification of which specific rule he was referring to when he ordered a pilot off of the runway.

I think it's been established that there is no specific rule. However, the guys who are running the show reserve the right to run that show the way they see fit. Something like this could have been addressed in advance, but it wasn't.

KHEDGE - yours is a totally different question. It appears you are attempting to merge AMA rules with local club rules. To my knowlwdge, there is no AMA rule prohibiting hovering over a runway. I never stated that there was. It is often done at many club fields. It was done most of the day at ARCA when this situation occurred. There may, however, be a local club rule preventing it at certain locations. That is up to the individual clubs. I am aware of several fields that do not allow any flight (including 3D) over the runway except for take off and landing.

The question asked by the OP was IMO answered long ago. Reading rule #7 of the safety code IMO restricts pilots to operations behind the flight line.

It is also answered, in this instance, by reading the field rules of the ARCA club, as KE stated. ARCA rules specifically state that pilots will fly from the designated pilot stations. Again, in this instance, the flight line is defined as the area where the designated pilot stations are located.

By the way, I am NOT a policeman. I saw something that I felt was unsafe and reported it to club officers. That IS my job as Safety Coordinator for Dist. VIII. They then removed the pilot from the runway.

Funny! Being stupid doesn't negate your right to be covered by insurance and collect for payment. If that were true most auto accidents would never be paid for by insurance companies. You are covered by AMA insurance even if you are not flying at an AMA club field.

From watching politics at play in my model club, you will NEVER get the AMA to directly tell you that you MUST do something a certain way. They act only as advisors. Their model field layout is a recommendation not mandatory. AMA is not interested in playing referee to local club bickering.



The reason for this approach is that if they insisted on mandating certain practices they could be held liable for damages if something they insisted on caused injury.

When having such an Event, a wise CD will write into his Event Rules for the Day whatever he might need to satisfy his purposes.
A wise club will write into the Bylaws that a CD can change the daily Club Rules to serve the Event purpose, as long as such change complies with the AMA Safety Code.
Then so brief at the pilot's briefing how the day will go and any special rules either allowing or not allowing some situations as the topic denotes. In addition have a Handout with some funnies to attract attention, like a title of, "Dis is How Ve does it Today."
In 45 years as a CD I have not ever had a significant problem with fliers giving me any real guff. One friendly reminder usually works. If it doesn't then there is always the gate.

The AMA recommended field layout is very idealistic but not very realistic. AMA recognizes that. Membership Manual 2008 page 5, "The suggested specifications are not mandatory requirements, and compliance with these suggestions does not, of course, guarantee that no accident will occur."
That topic was kicked around several months ago. "Confusion on AMA rules for flying field."
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7652730/tm.htm

Locations Distance Factor (measured perpendicular from edge at runway safety line)
Runway edge is the basic Safety line or 0
Pilot line a minimum of 25 feet from safety line
Pit line a minimum of 45 feet from safety line
Spectator line a minimum of 65 feet from safety line
Parking lot a minimum of 80 feet from safety line

In the Safety Code there are some holes -in-the-wall subject to interpretation.

For example: General
"3. I will abide by this Safety Code and all rules established for the flying site I use. I will not willfully fly my model aircraft in a reckless and/or dangerous manner."
In my opinion, standing close to a hovering model is reckless and dangerous. OTOH some folks play with rattlesnakes so the actual interpretation of "reckless and dangerous" is very ambiguous. Another reason I set my standards for my event on my day.

RC
#1 "1. All model flying shall be conducted in a manner to avoid over flight of unprotected people."

IMO the pilot out by the hovering airplane is, at that time, one of those "unprotected people". Even more so, in a liability suit, like for example the model glitches, takes out the pilot and then goes over into the spectators and takes out someone's child.
How do you think the jury will react to that scenario? I know how this juror would react. [sm=thumbs_down.gif]

Yet, I have no clue how the average person would react to the situation or define the rule itself.

RC
7. With the exception of events flown under official AMA rules, no powered model may be flown
outdoors closer than 25 feet to any individual, except for the pilot and the pilot's helper(s) located at the flightline.

Here is a very poorly constructed rule. Notice the exception: ".... except for the pilot and the pilot's helper(s) located at the flight line."
Qs: Just who is at the flightline? Is it the pilot and his helpers, or is it just the helper(s)? Inserting "both" between "for" and "the" would define each to be at the flight line. As it stands if the pilot's helper/s is/are at the flight line which I take to be the Safety line / 0 line, then the pilot by Safety Code can venture forth.
RC #4 allows the person associated with flying the model to go beyond the safety line. So where is the prevention?

It's very difficult to write a rule to take care of each and every situation. OTOH, if one cannot or refuses to investigate the applicable rules, then one will never be able to take advantage of all the loop-holed that were left by either unsophisticated rules-writers or those loopholes the writers left there purposely to benefit themselves.

OTOH those in a situation CAN take the bull by the horns and run their own operation in a manner that does provide reasonable security for all without someone else's stated words that may or may not fit any specific situation.

cooperd, we're all aware of how the insurance game plays out in real life. What I'm talking about is something different and if it has to be spelled out to you at this stage in your life, then it is already too late.

Yes I do, But it was a demo and my friend had total control of his aircraft. I agree with the safety part.

Thanks for the explaining.

Hoss
Seperate the flying of models with 25' of folks, and the locations of said folks.
#4 lists who is not allowed to cross forwrd of the safety line.
Unrelated, #7 talks about staying 25' away from folks, except certan folks that are behind the flighline
<whether the flightline is the ZeroLine or the line of pilot stations>

But generally, you are right
it could be worded much clearer.



Here is someting a little less vague:

ARCA OPERATIONAL REGULATIONS
09. ALL FLIGHT OPERATIONS, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF HELICOPTERS AND PYLON RACERS, SHALL BE CONDUCTED WITH THE PILOT STANDING IN THE DESIGNATED PILOT AREA (SEE FIGURE 1). .[ul] A. TAXIING TO AND FROM THE RUNWAY MAY BE CONDUCTED WITH THE PILOT WALKING NEAR THE AIRCRAFT.
B. FOR TAKEOFF AND LANDING, THE PILOT MAY STEP FORWARD TO THE EDGE OF THE RUNWAY
[/ul]

That club has taken the vagury out of it with their local rule.

I just wish i could hover a plane long enough to walk up to it. That would be great. The flyers know if they can do this safely so why not let them if they are that good. I don't think someone that does not know how to hover his/her plane long enough or good enough is going to walk up to it anyway. I have seen this at several demo's, alot of video's and none have done anything that i could see as just outright dangerous. The rules say one thing the clubs say another so if the club doesn't care then have at it. IF they do then don't have at it. The field your flying at is the one that makes that decision I would guess.

I read through all of the posts, but my old eyes might have missed the answer to my question, which is, why would one need to stand that close to their plane or heli to operate it?

I have read this thread thru and went to the PDF file on the field layout, and looked at the Safety Rules.
While the field layout is a suggestion, it clearly shows intent. The thing that has to be clarified is whether the pilot line and the flight line are one and the same. I think yes, from the AMA file on field layouts. That document clearly shows the pilot area to be 25' from the edge of the runway.

Therefore Rule #7 applies, and would prohibit the pilot from being on the runway next to his plane while hovering.
As has been mentioned before, the field layout is suggestional and not a hard and fast rule; except that the 25' separation has actually been written into the safety code in rule#7.

Now the rub, I fly 3d. Almost every field i have been to, and i do travel to many fly ins each year, Rarely does a field have 25' from the edge of the runway to the pilot's station of flight line. I think the ambiguity of the translation has possibly lead to fields that would not pass the safety code. I know that when we laid out our field, we went by the reccomendation of AMA, except we didn't have enough room, and since the reccomendations stated they were not required but only suggested, we wound up with 15' there. Do we need to expand that?

Then lacking something in any specific rules the CD may/may not have issued for the day, it's rather clear that the pilot was violating club rules by approaching the aircraft, and was correctly asked to step back.

The pilot was doing a 3D demo by himself. The CD asked him to do the demo and gave him permission to be on the runway during the demo, as long as he was the only person on the runway. That is the reason I asked the original question of what AMA rule was broken, as the club rule did not apply in this instance as he had been given permission to be there by the CD.

Thanks for clarifiying.

JackL
That may be very well.
Hoss covered that aspect
ARCA has Rule #9
What is the ARCA rule # or bylaw that grants the CDs authority to waive clubrules?
It is very simple to have that authority granted to the CDs by the club, did they?



Whether or not the local rules9 was waived by CD,
AMA rule #7 is clear about the 25', unless the folks are at the flightline (not past the flightline in the middls of the runway). If someone is exercizing AMA rule4 and is out on the runway, they cannot have models flown within 25'.

The way I read it,
the only way AMA SC will let general pilot folks stand 5' from a model in flight (outside,power,non-heli) is for the plane to be near the edge of the runway while the pilot (&helper) is at a defined "flightline" off the runway. If there are no planes within 25' then <flight involved folks> may exercize rule 4 & go out on the runway.

Models in flight, that includes Hover, it doesnt need to specificly say hover is included in "flight".


What we have now is
The AMA District Safety Guy has made his determination on the safety of the activity
That CD acted on a discovered safety problem and enforced safety at his event.
That club has a rule that may or maynot be allowed to be waived by CDs,
... but most CDs respect the decisions of the District Safety Guy.
The Disctrict Sayefy guy may consider new AMA rule citations or Muncie Safety Guy declaration, but he has evaluated Rule 4 & 7 and repeating them to him I doubt will be fruitful in getting him to change his mind.

It has nothing to do with "need", and everything to do with "want."

If a pilot has enough skill to do it, why not? Why do the new pilots and old guys doing circles, both keep their planes way out? Because, most likely, that's all they feel comfortable doing. Why do I do full-speed inverted flybys at 5 feet off the deck? Because I CAN, and know that I can do so safely. Will I hover in my face? Nope. I'm not comfortable hovering 20 feet off the ground, why would I risk it right in front of me?

3D is the "New Thing" in model avaition, and as with "New Things" in all other sports and ventures, is usually never taken to by the "Old Timers" because, well, because it's new.

The rules are vague enough that they can be (mis)interpreted to either side's satisfaction (3D flyers and 3D haters.) Personally I think club discretion is where the final judgement ought to be made. Some fields have more than ample room to allow the 3D guys and the slow circle guys to both fly and land at the same time, with no interference. Most are probably not so well set up, and depending on how many are flying that day, and what kind of flying they do, should dictate who gets to do what, when.

Just because flying high-wing, dihedral-laden slow planes bores me, doesn't give me the right to belittle the guys that fly them. The same holds true for them when it's my turn to fly and I want to fly knife-edge circles 10 feet off the ground. As long as I am flying safely, until you buy my plane and gear, you can't tell me how to fly.

No offense intended, Del.