STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

You don't need to ask them, all you have to do is raise ad rates, that's how you ask them. When you see sales dropping due to lack of sales, you stop raising rates. That's how it's done, that's how it's always been done and that's how it will be done in the future. Did any of you guys take high school level business courses?

Blue_Sky

Although there are opportunistic options to argue the above quote, it’s a great jumping off point to find consensus. Define and agree on what the current “mission� realistically is - and not what we’d like it to be – or what it should be. Defining the current AMA mission is at the heart of most debates here.

Is the AMA, as a unified non-profit organization comprised of our membership, serving the members? Or is it the other way around?

From my perspective the AMA is wasting time and resources to bolster membership and justify existence. The publication of Model Aviation with expenses in the red is ample proof of that.

1. The current mission of the AMA regarding Model Aviation magazine is to justify their existence.

Can we agree?

Discussing ad rates and distribution of the magazine (put it on newsstands for crying out loud and let the Boy Scouts find it there) is a very positive way to address the issue. I’d never denigrate the loyalty and hard work that goes into the magazine, that’s not the point. The point is, does Model Aviation serve the members or does it serve the AMA?

2. The AMA has shifted from serving the membership to serving itself.

Can we agree?

I first became a member of the AMA in the early ‘90s and speaking for myself, the most important part of the magazine was reading my district report. I got a great feeling back then because I felt a part of something, but over the years that feeling is gone because whether real or imagined, I no longer believe the AMA represents my interests in model aircraft.

This forum recently weathered a conflict of interest debate and even though it may seem otherwise, I think the AMA should move TOWARD finding alliances with other trade associations and do much more in the business of sanctioning events and promotion.

I’m also a member of the better known non-profit AMA, the American Motorcyclist Association. The other AMA sanctions world class racing events from Supercross to Superbike championships. The other AMA is synonymous to racing at all levels, from local amateur events to the crown jewels of championship events. The AMA is powerful and arbitrates race results, standings – to the extent major motorcycle manufacturers like Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, bring motorcycles to the market based on AMA governance of the sport. And while they sanction events all these events, they’re also an extremely powerful lobbying force in government. Why are they powerful? They are a sanctioning body which promotes relationships with big business and yet the foundation and cornerstone of the organization is positioned to first serve their members.

You’d find the American Motorcyclist Association is comprised of members from every walk of life which are more diverse and conflicting than our membership here. Why do people join and support the American Motorcyclist Association even if they don’t agree with everything the AMA promotes and lobbies? The American Motorcyclist Association is a unified powerful voice for all members. Their Board of Directors includes representatives of manufacturers and business, which is a healthy way to run a non-profit.

In contrast, the Academy of Model Aeronautics appears to be the leftover shell of the same type of foundational roots, which at this point seems to be shackled by the chains of it’s structure and past decisions. My recommendation is either get more representation of business on the Board of Directors, or be prepared to continue a downward spiral.

Bob Mitchell

You've confused me a bit here. If I understand correctly you seem to be advocating that our AMA should include industry reps on it's board, but in a message in another thread seemed to agree that industry reps should not have been involved on the Marketing Committee. What am I missing here?

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Absolutely, it's the first and last reason, no doubt, well said, however. You're a member of another AMA, do they put their rag on most newsstands? I would suspect not, but I'm not sure. Well I have yet to this day to see a AOPA rag on the rack, EAA too someone said AOPA's out there, but I've never seen it and I've been a member for quite some time as well as EAA.

There is a reason you don't see most membership periodicals on newstands (wide) and that number one reason ..... here it is ..... exclusitivity. The AMA is a service provider of services, we know what they are, no need to rattle them off. However they are also membership based and with membership comes priviliages. The AMA has to maintain a level of exclusitivity to it's members, like they are part of something and it's theirs. It's all part of their sales fluff, yes fluff, even though the AMA is a NFP and service provider they still have to maintain a level of sales no different than what McDonalds uses to lure children.

Sure they'll put some rags in hobby shops, but they won't distribute wide or else they have totally lost that "warm fuzzy feeling" of exclusitivity with their members. Anyone can get it. This is why the AMA makes the rags available, but they don't push them wide or else so much for an "exclsive" membership base, now it's just everyone. The best way to get these rags distributed is for members to takes vows they will pass them along. If only half the membership passed the magazine every month the circulation would be more than Barnes and Noble and every other rag shop could sell .... combined. But which method had a bigger impact to THE HOBBY, not the cashflow.


We do not. I see this posted day in and day out and I still have yet to hear how on earth they are self providing? The AMA is not for profit .... who is it providing? The AMA only serves members, I can't see it any other way. Sorry but I just don't buy all the conspiracies, because frankly I have yet to this day hear a member complain they didn't get exactly what they were promised. Seriously where are the real complaints? They are not here, they are all made up hogwash. The AMA delivers and that's that. Have they changed? Yes, it's 2008 now, things are different. But when Muncie starts taking dividends, then I'll wonder, but for now, nope, don't buy it.

The Toolman

Mailing costs an printing an etc, I still say they have $28 in it per year per member. From being around the mag biz back in 2002 I don't believe there is any way they print an mail that mag out for $18 year. Its a nice mag with the expensive shiny paper(costs extra) an lotsa color pages in it (costs extra again)
My charge is $58 a year, the wifes as a add on is $30 with no mag or $58 if she wants the mag also
Thats $28 diff there.
Either somebody is lying or some sort of creative bookeeping thats leads everybody to think it is $18 per year per member
If the $18 figure is correct, why isn't the wifes membership $40 per year instead of $30 to reflect the $18 charge they claim the mag costs
They are probably skimming the extra 10 bucks to use for something else IMO

I still think something stinks here, no matter what anybody says. When ya let a few people in charge of a lot a peoples money, somebody is gonna get screwed.

Look to D.C. to see what I mean.

edit to addaig, numerous banks, and all the other low life slime ball crooks on wall street an anybody else associated with'em

Blue_Sky

The members of the Marketing Committee should have recused themselves. In my judgment conflict of interest was violated.

But that doesn't alter the reality that healthy relationships can occur in non-profit organizations with direct participation from business.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Let's have a show of hands:

Who is going to lose that warm fuzzy feeling if they see Model Aviation at a magazine rack?

Who doesn't care, or [better yet] would like to see MA on display? [8D]

KidEpoxy

I cant beleive STL is touting the exclusive nature of AMA,
considering many folks see that as a negative attribute and strive to dispell the exclusiveness.

Yes STL,
we would like to limit MA exposure,
keep the AMA a deep dark secret that only a few that venture into a hobbyshop get to see.
All the while folks like you are destroying our mystique, our warm fuzzy exclusive standoff snobishness,
by leaving MA at doctors offices & giving them away to Boyscouts.
</sarcasm>

You STL,
You are the one saying how it would be a terrible loss
if we didnt plaster the universe with our cast off old MA issues,
and now you turn 180 flipflop and say we dont want MA out in the masses for sale, because we are exclusive.

Pick one side, and stick to it.
Do you now renounce your previous comment
about a greivous loss if we dont leave MA out everywhere (counter warmfuzzy excusive)?

Blue_Sky

I've already lost the warm and fuzzy feeling and it's a great question because I have a hunch even those working on the magazine have lost it as well. At this point the AMA would better serve the membership by making the magazine available to a wider audience. If the AMA wants to expand their influence they might as well not beat around the bush in the bunker of their own making - get out there and promote. Be proactive rather than reactive.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

When you say AMA do you mean the member, who are the AMA, or those guys that push pencils in Muncie for the AMA? I agree, the AMA should expose themselves, this means the members.

Does your Motorcycle AMA distribute their rag wide? My other orgs don't either.

Bob Mitchell

I'm not sure how you managed to do it in a reply to me, but message you are quoting was TOO me, not FROM me.

Bob Mitchell

I think it's a good idea.

To STL.......I'm the one that commented I've seen AOPA Pilot on the stands, usually at places like Books a Million, Barnes and Nobel, etc where there is a huge selection. I've never seen it anywherre with more limited selections like drug stores, etc.

Bob Mitchell

I'm not sure what is going on with the Forum, but I'm seeing several messages with quotes from one person, but identified as a reply to somone else. This one includes quotes from me, but is indicated that it's in reply to Toolman.

Strange.

OK, back to the subject. I don't understand the logic, Bluesky. The guys on the marketing commitee, helping develop, but not approve marketing policy should recuse themselves, but other industry folks would be OK on the EC who actually approve the policy? Would you explain?

KidEpoxy

Bob
The forum will put the REPLY To as the last post when the Fast Reply box is used rather than hitting the Reply button at a specific post. I assume you are talking about #55, it is likely he quoted and attribed to you while using the FastReply textbox, and that put the ReplyTo as Toolman.

That is why it is always handy to address the post, like I did here,
especially when you qre going to quote someone.

Blue_Sky

You know who I mean, let's not belabor the point.

The magazine is considered a member benefit with a circulation of 280,000. It's a high quality magazine with good content, but it's what you'd expect of a member magazine - it's tailored with content specifically for American Motorcyclist Association members and would not work on the newsstand. MA on the other hand could make the transition with very few changes.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

BOOYAB! Sorry ... but your AMA Motorcyclists marketing gurus understand the concept of exclusitivity, so does the AMA and so do most, if not almost all membership based mags. It doesn't matter if you manipulate the magazine to fit the rack, the only thing you'll do is manipulate the membership to make them feel their "official publication" is no longer their own, but now everyone's. Read the sentence under the title of Model Aviation, what does it say?

Like I said, if only half the members passed on their rag, that would accomplish more than every rag shop in America combined as most RC rags have a first market circulation no greater than 75k. Could and would Barnes and Noble distribute if they could .... of course ..... does the AMA know this .... of course. In this case the AMA is serving their membership, no different than your AMA serving theirs.

Pass it on, mission accomplished, believe in the system.


Oh and Bob Mitchell, here is a link to AOPA Pilots distribution report, it claims circulation only to membership and subscibers, no single sales channels. [link=http://www.aopaadvertising.org/AOPA2008Site/pdf/Dec07ABC.pdf]LINK[/link]

Not calling you a liar, I've just never seen AOPA Pilot in any rag shop including B&N. Also take a look at their rate card, $14,000 for 1 time full page spread. That's 12 times more than MA charges for 2.5 times greater circulation. Why ... they can get it ... they never demanded it .... they charge it because that money is available from the companies that advertise as full scale flying has MONSTERS in business and of course a lot of mom and pops whose parts alone sometimes start in the thousands.

The Toolman

TO ALL-


When is somebody going to answer this? I have brought it up twice in the last year an yet to get any comment to speak of on it

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

ME ME!! Does that $28 per member conspiracy theory inclue the 1.1 million that MA takes in advertising? In re mailing, DM already explained it. AMA is NFP, they pay pennies per copy to ship.

Blue_Sky

Sure. In my experience, ethical violations including conflict of interest are not as likely to occur at a board level as they are in a committee, even though both operate at the same level. As a matter of fact, I've seen probable fraud at the board level and not necessarily conflict of interest. I've seen boards pay board members directly for services and give contracts to board members representing a business, but in those situations a board by it's nature will be very cautious due to the high levels of trust given to a board.

The Toolman

Anymore, I don't believe anything that comes from there.........

Liberator

Hoss and I have gone back and forth about what is essentially and arbritary rate increase on ad space in the MA and I can't seem to make this understood, but here goes. And for the record, this is just my opinion backed by 8 years in the magazine production, ad sales, and distribution business.
One simply can not raise rates because "you" think they should be higher. You have to provide a value proposition to the end user to substantiate why the increase is justified. In fact you need to be able to show why you charge what you do in the first place. In this discussion too often folks get hung up on the fact that MA is sent to a "controlled" group of folks and this is somehow a good thing. In fact, it is the Achilles heal of the magazine. Copies sent to folks as part of a package, regardless of what it is, will always have LESS value to the advertising community than copies purchased at the news stand. The reason is that if folks purchase from the news stand they are making a conscious choice to buy that product, and as such will be more likely to buy product from that magazine by virtue of the fact that they have made a present outlay of dollars. When you spend money you tend to take better care of something, keep it around longer, and read through it more carefully.
Getting a copy as part of a package means that the dollars you would normally spend are spent ahead of time and as such, the urgency to look through that product goes down or away completely.

So to say that we have a group of folks getting this product each month and look how neat this is, we need to say, we need to get more voluntary purchases of the magazine in order to show how popular it is and why we can raise rates.

At the end of the day if I were purchasing for this type of product (rc models, accessories, radios, whatever) I would use an online product called Whoscalling.com.
This enables you to tack a different 800 number in each ad that will piggy back on to your incoming phone line. You can then run about 40 different reports that will show which ad produced the call, when it came in, what the call duration was, which part of which city it came from (great for sending out bulk mail later if you find a good hot spot) ETC.

Then you can do a real world comparison to see which magazine actually produces for you. Only then will anyone be able to know which ad venue is effective and which one's need to be flushed.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

EXACTLY! And MA uses the reverse technique to quantify their prices for their ads, exactly! All rags use this formula.

The Toolman

stl, did you learn all of this from your boss at Frontier Financial Advisors there on Wall st. or did ya just make it up on your own? By the way, do they do anything for the ama or is that a secret the members shouldn't know?

Blue_Sky

STL, obviously you realize I offered up that little morsel on a silver platter knowing you'd respond. Thank you for allowing me to first introduce the difference between the two magazines and now further illustrate the fundamental differences of intent between the American Motorcyclist magazine and Model Aviation - including reasoning we could consider in regard to what type of content should be included in MA.

American Motorcyclist is produced with the look and feel of getting membership advertising for a time share, vacation club or any other type of specific membership organization. It's a nice little mag, probably half or less the page size of MA, but it's designed to be a members only magazine. And due to the fact the American Motorcyclist Association is active across a broad spectrum of motorcycle issues and laws, they can fill pages and pages of content about what they accomplish for the benefit of their membership.

On the other hand, Model Aviation could hit the shelves as it exists. MA also includes AMA specific information, and I think it's the type of information we want the general public to have. If you encourage AMA members to donate used MA magazines to the library or the doctor office waiting room, why wouldn't you therefore want it proudly displayed on a magazine rack? The logical argument of donating used MA magazines falls short, if you want the magazine out there, put it out there and run it in the black. It's a win-win.

But, if our AMA wants MA to have the feel of a members only magazine, they should either consider editorial changes or, if editorial changes aren't the issue, get out there in the world and start doing more for the membership that can really be used for great PR. By the way, we pay the AMA to serve our interests, not the other way around. An organization serves the members. STL, repeat that ten times slowly.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Completely over thinking it and using gross assumptions to arrive at your conclusions. Saying that ad space in MA has less value than any other magazine is at the extreme end of the reality spectrum. With all the technology and marketing science known to man, huge and disasterous mistakes get made every day in the business world. Trying to make this sound like rocket science instead of the very in-exact science that it really is adds no credence to your argument. A magazine like MA is in a unique position to test the waters to see what their ad space is really worth. Yes indeed, you can name your own price if you control the bulk of the market. The mega advertisers already have ads in all the other magazines and if one of them was to vacate MA over a rate sqabble, that will serve to create a vaccuum that opportunistic competitors will fill.
If MA ran their mag like they either had to make a profit or close the doors, I'm pretty sure that the numbers in the auditor's report would do a 180. The magazine should be looked upon as an asset that the AMA can profit from, instead of the magazine looking at the AMA as an asset that they take profits from.